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Sans vs Mami Tomoe

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That's still different from teleporting an object out of Frisk's hands/Mami's head.

Yeah, but Mami also has way more experience in battle than Frisk, whose experience is taking a weapon and murdering people. And she is used to fight without getting hit due to the fact that she is a glass cannon. Nope, they don't harm if you dodge. It's just difficult
 
While I think he's fully capable of doing do I'll drop it for now.

Experience doesn't mean a whole lot heee, Frisk had plenty of experience against sans, still keep on dying and dying. Dodging is one thing, being rag dolled and teleported around against your Will with no way to know we're you're gonna end up and where attacks are coming is a hell of a lot different then simply dodging.

And pretty sure the blue bones do in fact hurt ya if ya dodge.
 
Attack reflection and forcefields do help with that. And Frisk/Chara had next to no experience, the only enemy that was an actual challenge during the genocide run was Undyne (excluding Sans himself of course).

Ah you meant those. They need to hit you actually. They just damage you when you are moving and you are in contact with them. Also a reminder that Mami can jump ridiculously high which helps as well since blue mode doesn't prevents it.
 
They help, they don't prevent it. And my point was, even after dying to sans, being well aware if how he fights and even knowing what he'd do next still resulted in their death. Sans was fighting someone who knew all his in's and out's and still killed them.

Yes jumping helps but sans' tk prevents flight/jumping, he can ragdoll her and it'll definitly take her by surprise, along with the teleportation, essentially Mami us gonna be constantly put in a situation she can't adapt to because Sans' can change it up in an instant, he does so multiple times in like 10 seconds at one point.

Itd be different if she had time to adapt but she won't and unlike Frisk, she doesn't have an infinite amount of tries.
 
Homura doesn't have blue mode to prevent flight and the like, and so? In the rebellion fight did Homura actively teleport Mami arpund mid time stop and such?

It's a bit different here as sans actually does stuff like that, yes Homura sets up attacks, but she doesnt keep the opponent their.

Also blue mode severely limits her mobility.
 
Actually i meant that Sans isn't the only one who can beat someone who know his techniques as much as he does. Homura had years worth of experience over Mami and Mami still won. Similarly to Chara/Frisk
 
Maybe so but let's be honest, Homura if she really wanted to could just time stop and pull the trigger as cool as the fight was time stop is a hell of a power.

Also Frisk is kinda way above Homura or Mami's oaygrade unless we wanna bring devil homu into this.

But regardless, Sans has an advantage in blue mode that allows him to rag doll her and put a huge handicap on her mobility and ability to dodge and this is in conjunction with his other skills.
 
Actually, Mami managed to bind her pretty much every time (Hell during Rebellion time IS stopped but they keep fighting).

Only stat wise which aren't really a factor for Sans.

Ribbons do that as well.
 
Her being able to fight in a time stop actually works against her here, kinda takes away her experiences with a huge amount of the sporadically changing enviroments and surprise factor of teleportating opponents and attacks.

Ribbons need to actually make contact to limit him (and he can tekeport to avoid them) while he just needs to look at her to handicap her with bluemode, maybe maje a gesture here and there to ragdoll, she doesn't have a counter for that.
 
Actually, why can't he blue mode her soul gem? Blue mode works effectively by controlling the soul, which her gem is so he most definitely can do that and considering he can use blue mode to essentially cripple multiversal Frisk by ragdolling I don't see why he can't crack the gem like an egg.
 
By environment I meant how sans uses his teleportation to chance the where he, his opponent and the attacks including what types of attacks are out in an instant in quick succession.

And sans should be able to win with a mere gesture with blue mode.
 
That's kinda overselling what the blue mode can do, and Mami also needs a single gesture to use her ribbons (actually, i'm not even sure if she needs it)
 
What? He almost killed Frisk through ragdolling with blue mode, brought them down to 1hp and that's only through gestures.

Now take something infinitely weaker then the the thing he almost killed by doing exactly that. Not exactly overselling it, I'm saying exactky what happened, he used blue mode and with gestures he nearly killed Frisk, now consider the fact Mami is far weaker and the gem is also far qeaker (and he most definitely can blue mode the gem for the very reason of it is a soul) and yeah, he can ragdoll and win a few gestures.
 
Not only he doesn't lead with that, but i'm pretty sure that Sans damaging Frisk/Chara by slamming them into the ground is either a testament to his durability negation or an outlier, considering that he is 21 tiers below then
 
If nothing works, which you seem to be implying will be the case, he'll be forced to do it sooner than latet.

Yes and? Is Mami somehow immune to that? Blue mode would still easily wreck her if it can incap and almost kill a multiversal through ragdolling.


>Sans turns his opponent's soul blue, giving it "gravity" (It is unclear if this is gravity or simply a 'directional force') and allowing him to easier hit his foes. However, Sans appears to have a far greater mastery of this ability than Papyrus, allowing him to effortlessly fling his foe around by manipulating their soul, or effectively 'changing gravity' and forcing them to the walls, ceiling. He was capable of using this ability to bypass the resistance of a multiversial being (Frisk/Chara) and damage them by sheer force of throwing their soul against the walls, however this accelerated how quickly he tired out during the fight.

Straight from his profile page, if it can fodderize Frisk it can easily do the same to Mami or even her gem considering that's where her soul is located thus he can eaaily manipulate that and considering he csn see souls he would already know. Only problem is itll tire him out but that shouldn't be a problem if he can easily kill her before that.
 
I never said that nothing will work.

Uh, no. If you harm a multiversal with durability negation you harm people below multiversal to the same extent. Otherwise it would be AP. And Mami has healing anyway.

And again, both can kill easily. This match comes down just to the one who kills first.
 
No but you did imply she'll avoid everything else, which basically means that ain't working.

Can her soul gem heal? Because he'll probably go for that considering that's where her soul is.
 
Actually I meant that she simply has viable counters, not that she will nope everything.

That I don't know, but to my knowledge no. I was thinking more if she ends up with a broken leg or something along those lines it doesn't cripple her
 
Dodge, counter, whatever it us, if his stuff won't work he'll just move on to the other stuff, probably quicker than he did against Frisk too since she has range and make it kast would be a mistake.

I don't expect a broken leg to incap or kill her, but the gem? The gem isn't getting out of it if he decides to blue mode and if mami lasts long enough he'll definitly go for it and when he does it he'll spam the shit out of it.
 
I expect that he would be able to Blue Mode the gem

I don't expect him to think "bring the soul gem directly to my hand and break it" before Mami one shots him with massive bullet spam and AoE attacks
 
Diesnt need to blue mode and bring it to himself, flinging it against walls and such is enough.

He can teleport away from the AoE and bullet spam and considering his range is rather huge it shouldn't be a problem.
 
Sans damaging Chara by slamming her against walls is a massive outlier.

Mami's soul gem is comparable in durabiliy to herself. Sans is not physically strong enough to break it. His soul manip can, but he's not going to target the soul gem first when its fixed to her body, and she's firing hundreds of thousands of explosive bullets at him at once.

He doesn't have some super sense for danger. He can dodge, and even teleport. Big woop. It won't help when there are thousands of bullets bouncing around and just one hitting him will kill him.
 
If it's an outlier make a CRT to get it removed, as it stands it's listed on there so I'm gonna use it and it's not like I disagree with it either.

Is it? Did we not conclude in another thread they don't because even a weaken Homu could shatter one like an egg with a gun, said gem being from Madoka no less, someone far above Homura.

No but neither does she, she can't precog being placed in the center of 22 gaster blasters, thrown into pits of bones, teleported all over, hsvimg her position reset etc herself, unlike Frisk who knew it was gonna happen, she doesn't know, it will all take her by surprise and she has no counter to being ragdolled into attacks or teleported all over against her will.
 
Not exactly true, some hax can directly correlate to AP, ie heaven Dio's overwrite or Tusk's infinite spin.

In this case blue mode is hax and it's listed as unknown, not because it doesn't have an AP but because it's unknown.

Regardless it's listed there and even make notes of it.
 
It's soul hax. Nothing to do with physical power. Which means that him using gravity to slam a MULTIVERSAL BEING into walls hard enough to damage them when he has 1 ATK is a major outlier
 
And he completely ignores that durability and almost kills them, so what does her gem being the same durability as her, even if I dusagree with that notion, have to do with him breaking it? The answer is nothing, it doesn't matter.

And yes he would target it first, the literal first thing he does is blue mode Frisk's soul and he can see souls so he'd know what he's doing considering he can see the body is souless.
 
About the Soul gem thing, Madoka's dura is Low 7-C and Homura's AP is 7-C (Remember that enhanched weapons>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular weapons) given that it was the second timeline. So it makes sense. But it isn't relevant for this debate.

Also, Sans doesn't lead with the "slam you into the wall till you die" kind of Blue Mode. He just uses the one that forces you to jump. Mami is no stranger to surprise attacks (She even fought a time stopper in the form of Fake Kyoko, and this case wasn't like against Homura)

And the literal first thing that Mami always does is using binding magic. Used it i don't even know how many times against Homura, tried against Kirika, used it against witches, Kyoko, and probably other instances that i don't remember.

Also if we want to go the "need a counter for everything" route, match is inconclusive because both have things that the other can't fully counter. Vs matches aren't about countering the other perfectly, they are about who has more advantages. Otherwise every match would be either an inconclusive or a stomp.
 
I prefer to wait if others feel like debating more. Also I saw matches gaining 7 votes in half an hour, so there is always room to recover for Sans
 
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