Sans Versus Match up discussion

[Buttersamuri]

Due to recent downgrades to Sans physically. Many of his match ups should likely be removed or redone. I making this thread to discuss which ones I believe need removal with his downgrades and why, due to the very large amount of fights he has. Most all of these are straight forward with the same reasons.

1. Pixel Gunner vs Sans. A rematch if not just removed all together since Sans gets ultimately one shots.

2. Bubsy vs Sans. Same reasons as above

3. SCP-173 vs Sans. Same reasons as above

4. Ika vs Sans. Same reasons as above

5. Frank West vs Sans. Same reasons as above.

6. Hank vs Sans Same reasons as above

7. Jesus vs Sans Same reasons as above

8. Wolf vs Sans Same reasons as above

9. Ringo vs Sans Same reasons as above

10. Undyne vs Sans

11. Asgore vs Sans

12. Papyrus vs Sans

These last three should be given a look as Sans has hit many different changes over the times these fights had been done. Now he most certainly gets one shot in them. In like Papyrus vs Sans, speed wasn't equal. But that didn't seem to be considered in the reasons for a winner. Plus the Hype for Sans has died down, which tends to have an effect on the votes. Every new hit profile gets it , so that with the downgrades and changes to Sans profile is the extra reasons why these should probably be redone at the very least.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

How did he get downgraded

 

[Buttersamuri]

A thread discussed and brought up that Sans has no reason to properly scale to small building. As several monsters above Sans get one shot by even start game frisk. As well, people like Monster kid have been threatened by a wall level damage. So Sans got the wall level debuff in durability and physicality. (Sine his attacks are magic and projectile based and have nothing to do with his physical strength)

 

[Galactagod]

How did he get downgraded

he has a DEFENCE of 1 making him less tougher then monster kid who is threatened by a fallthat was around 3 seconds long

 

[Galactagod]

oh, nevermind

 

[Buttersamuri]

No you're right. That's part of why

 

[Galactagod]

nah, you just said it faster.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I suspect that his fight with Papyrus can remain. I am not sure about his fight with Asgore, but his fight with Undyne must be remove. That fight is really outdated

 

[Jackythejack]

His fight with frank is fine, his fight with Ika is fine. They still get screwed over by soul hax. Sans wrecks them before they can get an attack off due to him slamming their souls into the ground and killing them instantly

 

[Buttersamuri]

I mostly here cause of the undertale fights. Papyrus I guess would be fine. The other two feel really really outdated

 

[Jackythejack]

Sans' whole fight in-canon revolves around him fighting someone who can oneshot him. Proves he can handle a fight where he could get one shot so this is a bit pointless.

 

[Buttersamuri]

These fights were kind of done during Sans hype though. These two deal damaku based attacks. Something sans has never shown to actively dodge. It's worth a revisit to make sure the outcome was right or not

 

[Jackythejack]

I guess but I'm referring to his other matches.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Flowey has danmaku and Sans beat him so many times he rage quitted and reset

 

[Buttersamuri]

Flowey has danmaku and Sans beat him so many times he rage quitted and reset

Can't really use that. It's only somewhat implied, we have no idea how he did it.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Well he didn't get hit that's for sure

 

[Jackythejack]

Besides if undertale gets downgraded to 10-C this is moot

 

[Buttersamuri]

That thread died. And I think there was too much disagreement on it

 

[Jackythejack]

Apparently not because Saikou is pretty confident it's gonna pass

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I think there should be a rematch between Sans and Asgore

 

[Buttersamuri]

I know I saw some staff shoot it down. But ehh. Who knows.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

the 10-C argument is flawed

 

[Gojii-san]

Flowey killed everyone in the underground at least once. That would obviously include Sans.

Another thing to note is that Sans would have no reason to fight him. The number of monsters killed (even if Papyrus is among them) is not what makes him care.

It's not like Sans would be able to do much against something that lacks a soul (i.e. no blue mode shenanigans) and can create multiple inescapable rings of death.

That is without getting into the very meta nature of Undertale fights where what you see is exactly what happens, including HUD being there, but that probably wouldn't be something you could properly translate into VSBattles matches.

There are many other ways for Sans to cause resets, including something as mundane as not showing up where and when he was supposed to. That alone would cause a lot of frustration for someone who wanted to see everything the Underground had to offer.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

I don't think it was even stated that Flowey did that

Sans still Fought him, for some reason

 

[Gojii-san]

Flowey says that he both befriended and killed everyone before you came..

We don't know if Sans actually fought Flowey. He says that he "caused [him] more than [his] fair share of resets" and that's about it

 

[Jackythejack]

Which sort of implies he killed him doesn't it? You only really reset when you die and this seems like a logical conclusion

 

[Gojii-san]

You can reset without a single death. Resetting means going back to where you first gained these powers (in Flowey's case, it's Asgore's garden). You reload when you die. Basically, resetting is starting a new game while reloading is continuing it.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Flowey also states that he could have never beat Asgore without you.

Regardless, I'll ask once again, what is the reason Sans can fight at all?

Both his finisher, as well as some pretty major parts of his skillet revolve around game mechanics that can't be applied with verse equal. That would make a proper fight with Sans impossible in any non in-verse fight.

 

[Lord_JJJ]

Flowey needs one blow to kill Sans. He is a swindler and attack his opponent from all sides. He does not have a soul, so he will cancel Sans's soul-based attacks. This was supposed to be a Stomp in Flowey's favor, but Sans defeated him somehow dozens of times until Flowey succumbed and reset. How did he do this?

 

[Gojii-san]

He said that he could never get past him, not that he couldn't defeat him. He means he literally couldn't go past Asgore because he never showed him the human souls as he does so only when he's about to take another one. Without a human soul, Flowey would never go past Asgore through the barrier and out of the Underground.

It would take literally no effort for Flowey to kill Asgore. Just play out a heartfelt reunion in the garden and stab him in the back while the poor old man is trying to console him. Not only would Asgore's defense drop due to being reunited with his dead son, but being betrayed would be even more devastating.

And again, we don't know if Flowey and Sans ever fought. Only that Flowey had to reset a bunch of times because of the skeleton, which wouldn't require them even meeting each other. Sans fighting Flowey even with everyone around him dead would be very much out of character to begin with.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That really doesn't matter at all.

Claiming Sans scales to Flowey is bunkers, and magic has always been shown to work on physical objects as much as Souls.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Why didn't Flowey just tell Asgore he's Asriel and that he needs a humans Soul? Or did he do it and Asgore refused?

 

[Gojii-san]

We never see blue gravity magic work on anything that isn't a soul. Obviously Toriel's fire works just fine on flowers, but hese two work very differently.

As for asking Asgore nicely, apparently it didn't work.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

he doesn't scale to Flowey, Flowey almost one shots Frisk with a single pellet, he just can Dodge his attacks

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Why do you ask questions that you know there are no answers to?

Killing Sans in his sleep, or taking hostages, etc. should be ridiculously easy, Flowey could have just absorbed the Soul of either Toriel or Asgore, etc.

 

[Gojii-san]

Sans wouldn't care about hostages. He wouldn't appreciate it, but he certainly wouldn't get off his apathetic butt bones.

I don't think boss monster's soul would have helped in anything given how he already has magic and monster souls are almost worthless.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

This fanfic thread, and I was talking about Asgore.

Flowey clearly did not do everything that is physically possible to be done.

Regardless, Sans doesn't scale, he just abuses the lack of invincibility frames to kill with a thousand cuts. There is no reason why this would be limited to souls.

 

[Gojii-san]

While Flowey obviously didn't do things like stand an extra inch to the left or something, he certainly did everything possible that was worth the time in any capacity (i.e. befriending and killing everyone in different ways and order). There are less reasons to assume that he didn't do a whole bunch of things than assuming he did. He is meant to be the obsessed completionist stand-in. The sort of people that do everything possible in the game for the sake of curiosity rather than being satisfied with resolving the plot. Undertale's about as subtle with that sort of stuff as a sledgehammer (to its detriment)

Raw damage would obviously still work on a physical object. It's gravity stuff that wouldn't work.

I do agree with not scaling because he works under very different mechanics