Saikou's Circus of the Disquieting: Undertale Edition

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

> "Frisk essentially works like the Incredible Hulk, except instead of rage, the more Determined that Frisk gets, the stronger she is. It's how Frisk was able to beat Asgore despite the massive power difference between Asgore and Undyne (who Frisk struggled against earlier in the story), how Frisk was able to stand up to Photoshop Flowey after her friends cheered her on, and how Undyne (another Determination user) was able to defeat Toriel despite much weaker physicals."

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Determination doesn't mean you're physically stronger than your less determined opponent, an example is Undyne the Undying and Mid-Genocide Frisk.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Who are you arguing had more DT?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

False equivalence, both characters are 9-A with Asgore being above to an unknown degree. Frisk jumping to that power is definitely a no. Hell, this STILL does not refute my point. Again, Frisk can barley harm Flowey. Show me proof of Frisk being able to deal away a decent chunk of his HP without him losing his power source.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Who are you arguing had more DT?

Genocide Frisk, she still had her SAVE and LOAD ability even after Undyne transformed

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Genocide Frisk, she still had his SAVE and LOAD ability even after Undyne transformed

But Undyne isn't only strong because of DT, she also had STATs.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

False equivalence, both characters are 9-A with Asgore being above to an unknown degree. Frisk jumping to that power is definitely a no. Hell, this STILL does not refute my point. Again, Frisk can barley harm Flowey. Show me proof of Frisk being able to deal away a decent chunk of his HP without him losing his power source.

Except it's not definitely a no. Frisk was doing the same Little Mac-esque chip damage to Asgore that she was to Undyne, and taking similar damage to how Undyne's attacks did, despite having much better armor and much higher DT. And according to Undyne, Asgore is >>>>>>> her.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

?

What are you even going on about, you have yet to adress anything I actually say.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Wait! Do you always do 1 Damage when you attack Flowey before the Souls help? Or does it increase even if you never called for help?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Have I?

Also, if you've actually read what I said in my blog, Frisk was nowhere near as strong as how she was at the end of the game, with not Photoshop Flowey nor Asriel being able to steal her SAVE and LOAD a second time.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Wait! Do you always do 1 Damage when you attack Flowey before the Souls help? Or does it increase even if you never called for help?

From what it seems, it only increases after souls assist you. Albeit it's still a very minor boost.

 

[Planck69]

Wouldn't High DT Frisk be able to scale to her own durability? She tanks attacks from Asriel and even survives the destruction of a timeline. Either this or Frisk is a Low 2-C stone-wall (either one could work honestly).

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Considering how Frisk can barlery harm Photoshop Flowey and can't even harm Asriel at all makes me think they're a stone wall at best.

 

[Planck69]

Barely harming a Low 2-C is still Low 2-C though.....

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Considering how Frisk can barlery harm Photoshop Flowey and can't even harm Asriel at all makes me think they're a stone wall at best.

So you didn't read my blog post.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Frisk not wanting to kill Asriel doesn't suddenly mean we should scale them. The gap between Omega Flowey and Asriel are quite large that you can't compare the two.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

> "And even in her first battle with Photoshop Flowey, she was capable of doing a single damage to him at a time, so by fighting this point you're basically telling me that the power difference between Frisk and Asriel is even bigger than Neutral Frisk and Photoshop Flowey."

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Yes, it is. It's pretty blantant. Asriel cannot be harmed by Frisk. Even if they held back, Frisk did the same with Undyne and at least did 1. You can't hold more back then already not wanting to try at all.

 

[Planck69]

Frisk being able to slightly hurt Photoshop Fowey and unable to harm Asriel is just because the latter is infinitely superior to the other, nothing more. And again, even the most miniscule damage to a Tier 2 wouldn't make you qualitatively inferior as a whole. The fact that Frisk already has Low 2-C feats (albeit ones that don't scale to her Strike Strength) leads me to believe her Tier 2 key should stay.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

I, on the other hand, don't think Flowey's body should scale to tier 2 at all, and that his whole new world is just a facet of save and loading the same way Frisk recreated every timeline. But I honestly can't care to argue about it anymore.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Yes, it is. It's pretty blantant. Asriel cannot be harmed by Frisk. Even if they held back, Frisk did the same with Undyne and at least did 1. You can't hold more back then already not wanting to try at all.

...If that were true, Asriel would have more Determination than her... but he doesn't. And why would Frisk want to hurt Undyne (the warrior who loves being hit) less than she'd want to hurt ASRIEL?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

...If that were true, Asriel would have more Determination than her... but he doesn't. And why would Frisk want to hurt Undyne (the warrior who loves being hit) less than she'd want to hurt ASRIEL?

People are stronger than Frisk without having more determination.

The fact that the only thing in that fight keeping you from being one-shot with his proper attacks is resurrection also helps that notion.

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

Except Frisk only resurrects when she dies.

In fact later in the fight Frisk's Determination got so great that Asriel couldn't even kill her at ALL.

 

[Planck69]

I, on the other hand, don't think Flowey's body should scale to tier 2 at all, and that his whole new world is just a facet of save and loading the same way Frisk recreated every timeline. But I honestly can't care to argue about it anymore.

When he creates his world right after gaining the six human souls, does he destroy Frisk's world in the process? If so, would that be a Low 2-C durability feat for Frisk or a Low/Mid-Godly regen feat when she arrives in the new SAVE file? Or would it just be a feat of Info Manip+Reality Warping+EE?

 

[Super_Ascended_Sean_Pazdera]

This whole thread is a cesspool of bad opinions lol

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Planck69 wrote When he creates his world right after gaining the six human souls, does he destroy Frisk's world in the process? If so, would that be a Low 2-C durability feat for Frisk or a Low/Mid-Godly regen feat when she arrives in the new SAVE file? Or would it just be a feat of Info Manip+Reality Warping+EE?

There is no reason to assume he did that, since they return to the normal world without either Flowey or Frisk doing anything, and there is no proof the six souls recreated the world either.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Except Frisk only resurrects when she dies.

In fact later in the fight Frisk's Determination got so great that Asriel couldn't even kill her at ALL.

Frisk also tanks attacks that should kill them with 1 HP, like the universe busting that reduces HP to 0 regardless of your armor or HP, and the last blast.

And being hard to kill is not a feat of power. Again, even the universe busting wholly ignored their durability, but they were still alive.

 

[Planck69]

Frisk also tanks attacks that should kill them with 1 HP, like the universe busting that reduces HP to 0 regardless of your armor or HP, and the last blast.

And being hard to kill is not a feat of power. Again, even the universe busting wholly ignored their durability, but they were still alive.

.....? If the universe bust ignored their durability then what keeps them alive?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Flowey still physically destroyed Frisk's Save file,and likely created his World, so he's at least Low 2-C.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

.....? If the universe bust ignored their durability then what keeps them alive?

Their determination, obviously.

The determination "resurrects" them by litirally pushing their broken heart together, and it just hang on with 0.000001 HP. Their DT simply made them hang on.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Flowey still physically destroyed Frisk's Save file,and likely created his World, so he's at least Low 2-C.

The whole head popping up over it isn't really the best argument for it. Overwriting save files is nothing new, and it's back once you beat him as long as you don't finish the game.

 

[Planck69]

Their determination, obviously.

The determination "resurrects" them by litirally pushing their broken heart together, and it just hang on with 0.000001 HP. Their DT simply made them hang on.

But they don't die nor do we see their soul come back together when he consumes the timeline. Frisk remains with 1 HP if they don't try to dodge the space-time fragments and is completely unharmed when they do.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ricsi

What should we do here?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

What about Flowey crashing the game and LV 9999?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

What about Flowey crashing the game and LV 9999?

I don't think that's possible to tier. No timeline is destroyed or anything.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

@Ricsi

What should we do here?

Only thing no-one argued against with as far as I saw was that Sans relies too much in game mechanics (turn based combat, side s roller bullet hell, etc.) to be used in normal fights, and should be banned because of that.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Well crashing the game is likely 2-C, as crashing the game is showing that the attack used was strong enough to make the game unstable and crash, but destroying a Timeline doesn't do that,it's the reason Chara isn't Low 2-C.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

No, that is a complete headcanon. You can die to one of his hundreds of bullets, and that bullet isn't suddenly stronger that all the others.

He kills you, he laughs in your face, and then he crashes the game. That's it.

 

[Theglassman12]

Wouldn't that at least somewhat scale to Chara since she was able to crash the game as well?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I wasn't talking about that crash, I was talking about the First one, the one he does instantly after absorbing the Human Souls.