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Routine Hax Buff - DMC
- Thread starter GilverTheProtoAngelo
- Start date
- Status
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
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oh dios mio the state of this verse is worse than i thought-
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Do you actually want to know, or are you going to keep ignoring my answer and repeating the question from incredulity? The answer is found in what ends up being done with the items in question.
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That is not in reference to the savior, also you made a paragraph that mentioned the Sparda sword, the Yamato is used to open the hell gate."When your blood and this sword are combined." As he is physically holding and looking at the sword "Yamato."
Jeez, guys. Have you actually played the games? We could've saved a lot of time here.
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Great, so that's why the Savior didn't absorb Nero. The vicar needed to wait until he could stab Nero or Dante with Yamato. No resistance to absorption required.
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The vicar can literally just yank Nero like he did to Kyrie out of the savior, he doesn’t need to wait for anything, I don’t really know if you are actually being serious or not, since gilver had already made that point.
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I already asked the DMC supporters to calm down and wait for Gilver to cover his points on a tldr, we shall wait for him to summarize everything and avoid the mess on this thread
I ask the others to help this aswell, nobody has the intention to derail this any further, right ?
I ask the others to help this aswell, nobody has the intention to derail this any further, right ?
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Everyone, slow it down. There's a reason the statement about the Yamato and Nero's blood combining to achieve Sanctus' ultimate goal keeps getting brought up even after I explained it, and why my attempts to explain it based on the events in the game, namely the fact that the Yamato is used separately from the Saviour to open the Hellgate, an ability the Yamato has consistently had without needing Sparda blood, have been repeatedly ignored. Let's just stop answering and wait for further evaluation.
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The reason is that the events of the game with regard to Yamato explain perfectly why the Savior did not absorb Nero. Yamato needed to be combined with the blood of Sparda. The vicar had no reason to absorb Nero right away. He needed to take Yamato from Nero and stab Nero with it in order to proceed with his plan. Once he had done that, Nero was absorbed and had no way to resist.
Given the absence of evidence for Savior's absorption being passive and automatic, and the absence of explicit evidence for Nero ever having any ability to resist Savior's absorption, and the absence of any evidence that Yamato has the ability to negate a resistance, my vote is a firm "disagree" for resistance negation.
We can continue to discuss this if desired, or we can move on to the other points of contention.
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Void resistance I'm not sure on given an explosion in of itself is too vague, everything else looks ok.
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Noted.
But for other's to read the tldr......
Okay.
So first things first.
Let me get simple accepted things out of the way.
Body of Saviour is made out of melded demon matter and souls of countless demons absorbed.
The exterior of Saviour, is "permeable" in the manner that allows it to simple absorb it's victim that come in contact with it.
Sanctus uses it full advantage by materialising and de-materialising throughout the Saviour's body for tactical advantage, does the same for Kyrie by holding her hostage and using her as meat shield. Everything can be observed in video above.
Now, it was simple matter that, Nero doesn't get absorbed intially through the surface for extended period of time while being held by Saviour, it's only after taking away Yamato ( which is a source of power for Nero ) and depowering Nero further is Sanctus able to absorb Nero.
At later point in story Dante has to use Yamato again to seperate Nero from Saviour and allow him to regenerate his disintegrated self.
Yamato (Devil May Cry)
The Yamato is Vergil's trademark dark-forged katana, a legendary sword that was wielded by his father Sparda, when he created it alongside the Rebellion and his own Devil Sword Sparda when the Legendary Dark Knight split his power into 3 pieces, and Sparda named the Yamato as such to embody the...
vsbattles.fandom.com
So in conclusion, Sanctus had to rely on Yamato to depower Nero to make him absorbable, hence said ability for Yamato. Which is visually showcased via Devil Bringer losing it's energy glow.
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Indeed, but there are numerous instances in which Sanctus simply stands on Savior's body. There are no indications that the absorption is passive or automatic. The Vicar can activate it at will:
The resulting energy blade flew towards the vicar. He saw it coming, and disappeared into the savior. I had no clue how, but it looked like he could freely go in and out of the statue like it was incorporeal. That had to be the same principle that allowed him to trap Kyrie in there.
As I wielded my sword, ready to strike, suddenly Kyrie appeared from the savior’s shoulder. The vicar smiled wickedly as he spoke.
“Oh my, what would happen were she to fall from so high up? I would save her in a heartbeat, but it appears I’m otherwise preoccupied…”
While he talked, Kyrie’s body gradually emerged, hanging towards the ground. If she came completely out, she’d definitely have fallen.
This fails on a couple of points. The first is that Nero does not get absorbed after losing Yamato. The second is that it is not said that Yamato stabbing Nero depowered him, and Yamato making contact with Nero's blood was said to be a prerequisite for their plan. Thus, we must decide between two scenarios, and determine which is the most reasonable
Scenario 1)
- Nero had an unstated resistance to the absorption power of the Savior.
- Yamato had an unstated ability to negate this resistance
- Savior's absorption ability was automatic, despite this never being stated.
- Nero does not have a resistance to the absorption power, as he stated (I had no way to resist.)
- Yamato did not negate his resistance, rather, the vicar stabbed Nero to combine the sword with his blood as stated (When your Sparda blood and this sword are combined, we will be able to proceed to the final stage of our ultimate goal.)
- Savior's absorption ability not automatic/passive, it was consciously activated by the vicar, which was stated (He saw it coming, and disappeared into the savior. I had no clue how, but it looked like he could freely go in and out of the statue like it was incorporeal. That had to be the same principle that allowed him to trap Kyrie in there.)
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Because he wants to stand on something? What purpose does getting absorbed and become victim to his own weapon? That does not happen untill very end of the game where Sanctus loses DSS and gets disintegrated.
You quoted an excerpt from novel yourself. Answered your own questions. The Pope has full controll over Saviour. Has full control over when to stand over the surface and when to get inside it and when to come out. Same principle applied Kyrie who is held as a bait and a meat shield.
FTFY
It does not need to be said that Nero was depowered when it is shown so blatantly when Stabbed, so much so that he it's shown by losing energy glow. Nero even says he can no longer resist.
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Indeed, which means Nero would only be absorbed when the vicar found it prudent to do so. Such as after he achieved his goal of combining Nero's blood with the sword.
No, he didn't. He said "I had no way to resist" there wasn't a "no longer." Please refrain from altering the source text to support your argument.
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Sure:
1) I am fine with Clairvoyance, but I am not clear on what is granting causality hax or BFR/Reverse BFR. Is it solely the phrase "as if we could reach out and pluck Mister Ducas from my ship" or is there something else?
2) The "crushing their very spirits" is likely just referring to them being discouraged by the fear. I disagree with considering this soul manipulation.
3) There's no indication of reactive evolution in the scan used. It just notes that he had experienced a weaker version of the presence before, there's no mention of him growing accustomed to it, developing a resistance, et cetera.
4) As Fuji pointed out, simply being in a void doesn't grant resistance to void manip, are there scans that demonstrate that Mundus can literally use the void to erase things or that such a power was ever a threat to Dante?
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I mean obviously, how else would Nero be depowered? Can't ignore the arm losing it's energy after all.
Have I? Don't see me quoting anything. Hard to resist anything when deprived of your primary faculties of power and abilities no? So clever of the Vicar to take advantage of the sword.
Anyways.
The BFR part was just comparison between Beastheads and common demons.
I believe the whole sentence is :-
I believe these are the pertinent phrases. Being able to manipulate events will fall under causality manip.
Ney, I believe spirit is literal here. Spirit and souls are used interchangeably throughout the verse, especially due to incorporeal nature of demons.
Even official translation supports this view for a sidenote. Basically the context is that the rotten demonic aura is threatening to affect the very soul with fear itself.
You would need context for that, he already has better RE feats, this one is just being used because helps in layering and stuff.
For resistance, you can see in scan itself how much he is suffering, with ailments like reduced reflexes and strained senses from Demonic Energy of the DW.
But later Tony goes on to have fights in same oppressive environment and winning and pretty much shrugging off the effects.
The proposal is Dante surviving inside an exploding and disintegrating void. Not a simple void resistance by simple living inside void.
Void was never a threat to Dante, that's the whole point of Dante dominating the fight.
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I have no idea whats going on but I know what point 3 is about.
To explain, previously in the novel Gilver created a Nexus, said nexus basically has all the passives from the demon world and each nexus is stronger than the previous ones until the last one can finally engulf the human world and create a new demon world.
The first nexus hit Tony with everything and he could barely stand but after a few moments adapted to it and started throwing hands.
The OP shows that Tony encountered another nexus which was more oppressive than the previous one because of what I said above but like the previous one he was able to adapt and keep throwing hands with the demons.
To explain, previously in the novel Gilver created a Nexus, said nexus basically has all the passives from the demon world and each nexus is stronger than the previous ones until the last one can finally engulf the human world and create a new demon world.
The first nexus hit Tony with everything and he could barely stand but after a few moments adapted to it and started throwing hands.
The OP shows that Tony encountered another nexus which was more oppressive than the previous one because of what I said above but like the previous one he was able to adapt and keep throwing hands with the demons.
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Okay, that better explains the situation, I agree with the Absorption then
This version of Mundus is non existant and accepted as such, however, when he directly attacks Dante during the second novel, it's described as this:
"But of course, the Demon King wasn't just going to sit back and let himself be beaten.
His countless arms swung down swords, rained down arrows of demonic power, and fired bolts of lightning, all in an attempt to bury the insolent challenger."
I also disagree with Void Resistance for the time being, as Mundus' attacks doesn't seem to be made of pure void but actually take some sort of existence, which seems to be "Conversion to Existence" from this Mundus, as listed on the Void page
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The arm doesn't start to lose it's glow until after the vicar has already pulled the sword out and begun descending back into the statue. The novelization makes no mention of Nero being depowered or his arm "losing its energy" as you have interpreted it. So, no, I am not comfortable making those kinds of assumptions given that the source material doesn't support them, and since the full sequence of events makes perfect sense without those assumptions. It's more logical that Nero had no resistance (he stated this), and the statue was merely holding him physically until the vicar achieved his two goals, which was a) retrieving the sword and b) combining it with Nero's blood by stabbing him. Once that happened he got absorbed, no imaginary resistance or negation needed. Occam's razor.
Indeed, you added "no longer" where it didn't exist. The vicar used the sword + blood of a Sparda descendent to enact the final stage of his plans. There's no evidence of a resistance or power negation or anything like that. Let's not write headcanon.
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Anyways:
I have to disagree with causality manip or BFR based on that. The best interpretation of "brought to us" is within the context of the already-mentioned clairvoyance, not an ability to affect the past or future through the clairvoyance.
Very well, I do not believe so, so I will be a disagree for this.
I will be a disagree for this unless there's more evidence. None of the scans I've read give any indication of Tony developing a resistance to this affect that he didn't have previously. If you'd like to argue otherwise, please tell me which specific quotes you believe best support this. I am not sure how you interpreted this, having now read the new scans.
Then I will have to be a disagree for this. It only mentions "exploding" once Dante successfully destroys it, it isn't something Dante would need to resist, it's just how the death of his opponent is characterized. I see no mention of the word "disintegrating" in your scan or in the full text.
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Ok, I'll note disagree and move on.
Mr. Bambu
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To avoid cluttering a thread...
I will state first that I think at least a couple of Deagon's points are needlessly nitpicky (such as the bit where he marks indications in his estimation that Nero is being physically held- I think the indication is there broadly but a lot of that doesn't indicate anything). However, in spite of some fraction of weaker arguments, I find his interpretations to be much more compelling than the OP's- I, too, am unclear on why we're dealing in causality manip for the evidence given, I too don't understand why crushing spirits is interpreted to refer to more than morale, so on and so forth.
I do not wish to clog a thread where that seems to be a major concern, so I hope I am forgiven in providing brief bits of evidence that I've actually read this thing and tried to follow the conversation. I agree with all of Deagon's positions, albeit may split hairs with him over the specifics.
I will state first that I think at least a couple of Deagon's points are needlessly nitpicky (such as the bit where he marks indications in his estimation that Nero is being physically held- I think the indication is there broadly but a lot of that doesn't indicate anything). However, in spite of some fraction of weaker arguments, I find his interpretations to be much more compelling than the OP's- I, too, am unclear on why we're dealing in causality manip for the evidence given, I too don't understand why crushing spirits is interpreted to refer to more than morale, so on and so forth.
I do not wish to clog a thread where that seems to be a major concern, so I hope I am forgiven in providing brief bits of evidence that I've actually read this thing and tried to follow the conversation. I agree with all of Deagon's positions, albeit may split hairs with him over the specifics.
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Noted.
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...
But...how does Yamato fit into the plan of absorbing Nero, Deagon?
He didn't actually ever use it to DO that. He just absorbed Nero with the Savior and then used the sword for his plan of RELEASING DEMONS from the Hellgate (which he would then kill with the Savior, which required Nero/The Blood of Sparda).
You're currently connecting two totally different aspects of his plan into one super ritual he did, when that's not the case.
But...how does Yamato fit into the plan of absorbing Nero, Deagon?
He didn't actually ever use it to DO that. He just absorbed Nero with the Savior and then used the sword for his plan of RELEASING DEMONS from the Hellgate (which he would then kill with the Savior, which required Nero/The Blood of Sparda).
You're currently connecting two totally different aspects of his plan into one super ritual he did, when that's not the case.
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It seems you have misunderstood my stance.
Indeed, he didn't need Yamato to absorb Nero. He needed to combine Yamato with the blood of a descendent of Sparda (which Nero is). The reason why Nero was not instantly absorbed was because the vicar needed to retrieve Yamato and stab Nero with it. Once he had done both of those things, Nero was absorbed. This entire sequence makes perfect sense without needed to add the following unproven assumptions:
1) That Savior's absorption is passive/automatic upon contact
2) That Nero had a resistance to this absorption
3) That Yamato had the ability to negate this resistance
"When your blood and this sword are combined"
It's a pretty textbook case of Occams Razor. This entire sequence of events makes perfect sense without making any of these assumptions, so there's no reason to make them. Yamato does not have the power to negate resistance to absorption. That's not justified by anything in the game or novel.
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...It seems you have misunderstood my stance.
Indeed, he didn't need Yamato to absorb Nero. He needed to combine Yamato with the blood of a descendent of Sparda (which Nero is). The reason why Nero was not instantly absorbed was because the vicar needed to retrieve Yamato and stab Nero with it. Once he had done both of those things, Nero was absorbed. This entire sequence makes perfect sense without needed to add the following unproven assumptions:
1) That Savior's absorption is passive/automatic upon contact
2) That Nero had a resistance to this absorption
3) That Yamato had the ability to negate this resistance
"When your blood and this sword are combined"
It's a pretty textbook case of Occams Razor. This entire sequence of events makes perfect sense without making any of these assumptions, so there's no reason to make them. Yamato does not have the power to negate resistance to absorption. That's not justified by anything in the game or novel.
In that same vein, your very argument implies Nero has resistance.
You see, earlier in the game he flawlessly absorbs Kyrie, and it's stated it's made of countless demon bodies and souls all fused/melded into the Savior.
If you propose that Sanctus NEEDED to combine Yamato with Nero to absorb Nero rather than just...ABSORBING NERO, then obviously the implication is he COULD NOT absorb Nero beforehand.
That said, I don't believe Sanctus' ability is passive. It's very clear he actively decides who does and doesn't phase through. From Yamato, to Kyrie, to Nero, etc. And you can even see this with Credo-He surprise attacks the vicar and nothing happens to him.
I also don't think Nero has resistance (outside of the one given to him via all Demons resisting the Beastheads) unless we go with YOUR argument, where you literally argue Sanctus physically could not absorb Nero until he did the stab.
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The ability the Yamato has to open the Hellgate is shown to not require Sparda blood in DMC5: Before the Nightmare, when Balrog uses a fragment of it to open such an entrance, with no Sparda blood involved.Indeed, he didn't need Yamato to absorb Nero. He needed to combine Yamato with the blood of a descendent of Sparda (which Nero is). The reason why Nero was not instantly absorbed was because the vicar needed to retrieve Yamato and stab Nero with it.
"When your blood and this sword are combined"
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Okay, this is where the disconnect is. I am not saying he needed to combine Yamato with blood of a descendent of Sparda in order to absorb Nero. That wasn't my stance at any point during the discussion.
The vicar said the following:
He's not saying he needs to combine them in order to absorb Nero, or that doing so would deactivate his resistance, etc.
I also really don't know how you got this, because I said the following in the very comment you replied to:
Indeed, he didn't need Yamato to absorb Nero.
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Bro really just said the word "cum" that many times
@Marvel_Champion_07 @Planck69 @Theglassman12 @Emirp sumitpo @UchihaSlayer96 @LephyrTheRevanchist @LordTracer @DemonGodMitchAubin @KingTempest @Lonkitt @Dereck03 @Elizhaa @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @LordGriffin1000 Please eradicate this monstrosity
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We know that Sanctus' "ultimate goal" is to open the Hellgate and then use the Saviour to defeat his staged demon invasion.
Now, we have to look at what he does with each.
So, where does he need Nero's blood to be? It's shown in Before the Nightmare that Balrog is able to open a similar Hellgate using a fragment of Yamato. This fragment broke off from the Yamato when Vergil was beaten by Mundus and his weapon was broken. The Yamato that Nero wields in DMC4 is made from the majority of the same broken blade. This means that the fragment Balrog is using has never made contact with Nero's blood to allow its use.
So we know the Yamato did not need to draw Nero's blood to work the Hellgate. The one place we do know Nero's blood was needed was inside the Saviour itself. This is clarified when Sanctus states that it's because of Nero that the Saviour will be completed.
His statement about combining Nero's blood with the Yamato, in its entirety, is:
"When your blood and this sword are combined, we will be able to proceed to the final stage of our ultimate goal."
We know the Yamato didn't need Nero's blood on it to open gates to the demon world, as shown in Before the Nightmare, but we also know that this "ultimate goal" requires two separate things happening at once, namely the Saviour and Hellgate running, and we likewise know that the Yamato is what's needed for the Hellgate, and Nero's blood is what's needed for the Saviour. Ergo, his statement about combining them doesn't seem to mean truly combining them, so much as having and using both.
- The key details are that he needed two things running, the Hellgate and the Saviour.
- The other key detail is that he needed the Sparda, the Yamato and Nero.
Now, we have to look at what he does with each.
- Yamato: With the Yamato, Agnus opens the Hellgate. This is the unique ability of the Yamato, as repeatedly stated.
- Sparda: Sanctus wields the Sparda inside the Saviour and draws direct power from it.
- Nero: Nero is absorbed into the Saviour to form its core. We know he needed to do that with a descendant of Sparda, as he repeatedly stated.
So, where does he need Nero's blood to be? It's shown in Before the Nightmare that Balrog is able to open a similar Hellgate using a fragment of Yamato. This fragment broke off from the Yamato when Vergil was beaten by Mundus and his weapon was broken. The Yamato that Nero wields in DMC4 is made from the majority of the same broken blade. This means that the fragment Balrog is using has never made contact with Nero's blood to allow its use.
So we know the Yamato did not need to draw Nero's blood to work the Hellgate. The one place we do know Nero's blood was needed was inside the Saviour itself. This is clarified when Sanctus states that it's because of Nero that the Saviour will be completed.
His statement about combining Nero's blood with the Yamato, in its entirety, is:
"When your blood and this sword are combined, we will be able to proceed to the final stage of our ultimate goal."
We know the Yamato didn't need Nero's blood on it to open gates to the demon world, as shown in Before the Nightmare, but we also know that this "ultimate goal" requires two separate things happening at once, namely the Saviour and Hellgate running, and we likewise know that the Yamato is what's needed for the Hellgate, and Nero's blood is what's needed for the Saviour. Ergo, his statement about combining them doesn't seem to mean truly combining them, so much as having and using both.
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I don't agree with this framing. I am making an argument, not asking you a question. I am aware of the argument being made for the ability, I think it's based on fairly unsound reasoning as I explained above. I don't think the addition of the Balrog situation from DMC5 particularly enhances the argument.
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Clairvoyance makes sense. Why causality hax, though?
Fear Manipulation makes sense. If I understand correctly from this thread, however, that Soul Manipulation is being proposed on the basis of the line stating that the oppressive force was threatening to 'crush their spirits', then no - that's not Soul Manipulation. 'Crush someone's spirit' is just an expression that refers to making someone feel demoralised, which is a relevant and apt description of what's happening in this scene. The writer was evidently not trying to say it was destroying their actual souls.
All Gilver says is that the gun is finely crafted after looking over it for a moment. I'm aware the important section is the narrator saying it was 'as if he was absorbing information from the firearm itself', but that's communicated in the text as merely an analogue, not an actual statement of what he's doing. It's not 'he was absorbing information', it's 'as if he was absorbing information'. Again, this clearly isn't what the writer was trying to say.
All that scan says is that he was in a suffocating environment of 'greater intensity' than before, not that he was any more adapted to it. In isolation, this would be like saying getting shot with a bullet on one occasion and getting shot with a higher caliber bullet on another occasion would be reactive evolution for the person getting shot.
The former scan just indicates that Dante made a deduction as to where he was on the basis of the environment he was in - not really an info analysis feat as much as it is an intelligence feat. The same issue arises with the second one. Seeing that a quiet, self-assured man who just mentally erased your bullets from existence is probably hiding power is just a reasonable inference, not a sign he's discerning any more information than could naturally be deduced.
For clarification - is this the same scan listed for info analysis before, only translated differently? Or is it just a different scene with weirdly similar phrasing?
I don't think this would qualify for Void Manipulation Resistance. Dante is in the void, yes, but he isn't the void itself, or a part of the void. The destruction of the void shouldn't inherently bring harm to him without context to establish that as the case, which would indicate this isn't necessarily a feat on his part.
Is the Yamato explicitly nullifying his powers? Furthermore, is Nero explicitly immune to being absorbed into the Saviour prior to this point? The scan isn't clear on this, and having played DMC4 extensively, I don't remember either of those being established.
That's fine.
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This seems to be based on the fact that both fear and soul manipulation are already present in DMC.
The ability to handle harsh environments he couldn't previously is a recurring thing, so if he was handling it any better or even at a comparable level that would indicate some adaptation.
Actually, there are much clearer power sensing feats in DMC, like V sensing both Dante's and Urizen's power levels in Visions of V. The info analysis might need further elaboration.
It's already noted that demons are immune to the Beastheads assimilating them and that they're unaffected by the demon world absorbing the human world with them in it. So there are existing reasons for demons resisting being absorbed.
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I do appreciate the elaboration on the other feats within the universe that befit these abilities, though my concern right now is with the justifications proposed by the OP.
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Fair enough. The thing is that these scans seem to lean a bit on prior information. The adaptive evolution, for example, seems to fit fairly well with his ability to handle demon world energy and similar negative effects when he couldn't not long ago, which has already gotten that ability accepted for him. The scan on its own is a bit barebones without that context though.
Gilver and others can go into the details better than I can, but I can make things a bit easier for both you and them by clarifying that many of the abilities described are already part of the profiles.
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I would like to point out that the word spirit in dmc was always used to refer to souls, that’s an example with demons being stated to be evil spirits as well as Dante being stated have spirits sealed within his bullets, and there is also the added very next to spirits so yeah it is more than indicative of it referring to the actual souls rather than it referring to mortality.
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