Root changes and possible High 1-A upgrade

[Tdjwo]

What people here dont understand is, if they continue thinking 「　」/Kara is the same as the swirl of root, then they are indirectly saying it has no apophatic theology due to the contradiction within the story. So it either they accept「　」and swirl are different or they continue to think they are the same which would mean there is not apophatic theology in the verse because of the contradictions, which would then downgrade the verse.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

From Lord El-melloi case files. you can find a lot of information on The Root there. Dunno if this helps anyone but i'll post it.

 

[Tdjwo]

Shiki's description of the root>>>any random person or mage especially from case files. Moreover, it would still bring us back to the beginning of the issue. Is 「　」apophatic or not, if you think it's the same as the root. The obvious answer is no because of the contradiction. Shiki has made us aware thay 「　」is different from the Root. She described them differently using their names at different times. 「　」is Kara also known as "Nothingness." Swirl of the root is spiral of origin. Kara is apophatic. The root isnt. Simple

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Shiki's description of the root>>>any random person or mage especially from case files. Moreover, it would still bring us back to the beginning of the issue. Is 「　」apophatic or not, if you think it's the same as the root. The obvious answer is no because of the contradiction. Shiki has made us aware thay 「　」is different from the Root. She described them differently using their names at different times. 「　」is Kara also known as "Nothingness." Swirl of the root is spiral of origin. Kara is apophatic. The root isnt. Simple

All I'd like to say is that it isn't a random mage talking about it......... it's actually one of the smartest and brightest geniuses in Nasuverse...

Also knk was released between 1998 - 1999 where as lord el melloi case files is more recent in line 2015+ iirc

 

[Tdjwo]

All I'd like to say is that it isn't a random mage talking about it......... it's actually one of the smartest and brightest geniuses in Nasuverse...

Also knk was released between 1998 - 1999 where as lord el melloi case files is more recent in line 2015+ iirc

I know who exactly it was. But no one could know more about the Root and Kara as much as Shiki itself.

It being more recent doesn't make it more correct. It's either it was retconned, or Waver simply doesn't have enough knowledge on Kara which makes sense due to its incomprehensible nature.

 

[Tarang123]

How? Kara is already accepted as having apophasis, this thread is mainly splitting the root into two keys, if one of them is 1-A without apophasis, then.. you get the idea

Because you don't split it into multiple keys. You misunderstood what the quote said.

 

[Tarang123]

After checking some of the raws, I don't see the 1A happening tbh. The Root being the apex of dimensional theory instead of supposedly being beyond it is a huge blow to its credibility. Especially if you take away its Apophatic Nature as well.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

All I'd like to say is that it isn't a random mage talking about it......... it's actually one of the smartest and brightest geniuses in Nasuverse...

Also knk was released between 1998 - 1999 where as lord el melloi case files is more recent in line 2015+ iirc

Nasu stated again in a material that they aren’t the same, and I believe it’s said again in fgo

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Because you don't split it into multiple keys. You misunderstood what the quote said.

They are completely different, either make new pages, or separate into two keys

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

After checking some of the raws, I don't see the 1A happening tbh. The Root being the apex of dimensional theory instead of supposedly being beyond it is a huge blow to its credibility. Especially if you take away its Apophatic Nature as well.

Which Raws? I believe it’s stated in both heavens feel and a manga

 

[Tarang123]

Which Raws? I believe it’s stated in both heavens feel and a manga

The raws that were used for the upgrades. They don't imply that it's beyond dimensional theory, but that it's the actual apex of it, which isn't 1A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Which Raws? I believe it’s stated in both heavens feel and a manga

The raws used for "Above all Dimensional Theory"

神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

It doesn't say that its beyond all dimensional theory or that it transcends it. It says that it stands at the apex of dimensionality. The statement itself is only Low 1-C and you would need to prove that the cosmology uses a High 1-B cosmology to get it to 1-A.

The sole reason the Root is 1-A is because of Negative Theology. However only the true portion of the root is 1-A and nothing else would be. So there's no High 1-A upgrade to be had.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Why was this reopened rip, its the same as the other closed one(s)

The raws that were used for the upgrades. They don't imply that it's beyond dimensional theory, but that it's the actual apex of it, which isn't 1A.

Anyway it kinda has to be beyond dimensional theory. It says at the top of all dimensional theories or whatever, but the previous line says it's outside the world (with other stuff clarifying it's beyond it), meaning it is outside and beyond dimensional theory anyway since that's where that is. Dimensional theories would be applicable to and part of the world (that increases as human knowledge does and what have you) so it's only able to describe that, which is everything except the Root, which as stated in the prior line is outside of that all. Meaning dimensional theory can't apply to it, it can't be the apex as in being part of it and it has to be beyond it due to being beyond the world in general. Which also ignores apex and above dimensions being the same in 90% of contexts, especially when you freely govern it all beneath yourself. Because if you're the apex of dimensions no matter how many there are, you're 1-A

 

[Paul_Frank]

It doesn't say that its beyond all dimensional theory or that it transcends it. It says that it stands at the apex of dimensionality.

I want to say, this part is incorrect btw. It like, literally has the Kanji for theory (論) deepl tling it as anything but dimensional theories or all dimensional theories is just a mistake on its end, it's always been iffy about stuff like that.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The raws used for "Above all Dimensional Theory"

It doesn't say that its beyond all dimensional theory or that it transcends it. It says that it stands at the apex of dimensionality. The statement itself is only Low 1-C and you would need to prove that the cosmology uses a High 1-B cosmology to get it to 1-A.

The sole reason the Root is 1-A is because of Negative Theology. However only the true portion of the root is 1-A and nothing else would be. So there's no High 1-A upgrade to be had.

I looked at the original crt and negative theology seemed to just be supporting evidence, all the other evidence fit the criteria enough to be 1-A

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

It’s placement at the end doesn’t make it seem like it was the main pint either, just the final nail in the coffin

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-1-1-a-root.113096/

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

just an addition, there’s multiple scans in that’d rot that say the root is beyond dimensional theory.

 

[Qawsedf234]

all the other evidence fit the criteria enough to be 1-A

It doesn't. All the other evidence just qualifies it for Low 1-C to 1-C.

just an addition, there’s multiple scans in that’d rot that say the root is beyond dimensional theory.

Which isn't a 1-A justification per our rules

A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.

 

[Tarang123]

Why was this reopened rip, its the same as the other closed one(s)



Anyway it kinda has to be beyond dimensional theory. It says at the top of all dimensional theories or whatever, but the previous line says it's outside the world (with other stuff clarifying it's beyond it), meaning it is outside and beyond dimensional theory anyway since that's where that is. Dimensional theories would be applicable to and part of the world (that increases as human knowledge does and what have you) so it's only able to describe that, which is everything except the Root, which as stated in the prior line is outside of that all. Meaning dimensional theory can't apply to it, it can't be the apex as in being part of it and it has to be beyond it due to being beyond the world in general. Which also ignores apex and above dimensions being the same in 90% of contexts, especially when you freely govern it all beneath yourself. Because if you're the apex of dimensions no matter how many there are, you're 1-A

That doesn't particularly make sense imo. It blatantly puts "apex of dimensional theory" and outside the world in the same sentence. It's clearly the very peak of dimensionality in the verse, and part of it as well.

I just feel that it's a pretty weird contradiction to say that it's the apex of dimensional theory (something that's stated time and time again) and then claim that it's beyond it entirely and can't be described, when that is never actually stated.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

It doesn't. All the other evidence just qualifies it for Low 1-C to 1-C.

Which isn't a 1-A justification per our rules

“Transcending“ space and time is vastly different, as space-time is only tier 2, dimensional theory is a different concept

 

[1Nairove]

Actually, I would like to reiterate what I said before on this topic and take it a little more seriously, these arguments actually look like 2 layers in 1A to me (and with the concepts that are said to be 1A) so for High 1-A nasuverse it seems absolutely but absolutely impossible and I don't believe there is enough evidence for an eventual upgrade (with different concepts and feats that may come out over the next 20 years maybe) so it makes more sense to argue that this could be 1A^2 rather than High 1-A, at least with friends who want to bring an upgrade to the universe. other staff members and nasu fans who say the scale is wrong will have one thing in common because seriously High 1-A is impossible

 

[Paul_Frank]

That doesn't particularly make sense imo. It blatantly puts "apex of dimensional theory" and outside the world in the same sentence. It's clearly the very peak of dimensionality in the verse, and part of it as well.

I just feel that it's a pretty weird contradiction to say that it's the apex of dimensional theory (something that's stated time and time again) and then claim that it's beyond it entirely and can't be described, when that is never actually stated.

I mean it straight up is stated that it's beyond everything and can't be described, multiple times even, like with the whole apophasis thing where every character trying to describe it immediately goes "actually that's limiting and doesn't describe it", and the mentions of it being beyond everything.

Further, as I said, it quite literally can't be both outside the world and part of dimensional theory, the latter only exists in the world where dimensions exist, so the idea that it's outside of the World but still part of dimensional theory is impossible, as the extent of dimensional theory doesn't extend out of the world.

The very next line also goes on to start saying that rather than just being at the top of, but still part of dimensional theory (and thus the world in order for that to be the case) it's the source and creator of everything. So not only is it necessarily independent of the dimensional theories by being beyond the area they even can apply to and describe, it's also necessarily independent it as it created all things. It can't be constrained to being part of something that didn't exist prior.

 

[Tdjwo]

Actually, I would like to reiterate what I said before on this topic and take it a little more seriously, these arguments actually look like 2 layers in 1A to me (and with the concepts that are said to be 1A) so for High 1-A nasuverse it seems absolutely but absolutely impossible and I don't believe there is enough evidence for an eventual upgrade (with different concepts and feats that may come out over the next 20 years maybe) so it makes more sense to argue that this could be 1A^2 rather than High 1-A, at least with friends who want to bring an upgrade to the universe. other staff members and nasu fans who say the scale is wrong will have one thing in common because seriously High 1-A is impossible

It being 2 layers into 1A is more impossible than being High 1A because there's absolutely nothing that amounts to the root being layered. Concepts are 1A because they reached the root. Root is 1A because of dimensional theories shenanigans. If 「　」is eventually accepted as something different from the Root, then it has to be High 1A due to it being inacessible to 1A root via Apophatic Theology.
I would like to know how and why it should be layered 1A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

“Transcending“ space and time is vastly different, as space-time is only tier 2, dimensional theory is a different concept

Transcending Dimensions still qualifies and is only Low 1-C without further context to the cosmology.

 

[Tarang123]

I mean it straight up is stated that it's beyond everything and can't be described, multiple times even, like with the whole apophasis thing where every character trying to describe it immediately goes "actually that's limiting and doesn't describe it", and the mentions of it being beyond everything.

Further, as I said, it quite literally can't be both outside the world and part of dimensional theory, the latter only exists in the world where dimensions exist, so the idea that it's outside of the World but still part of dimensional theory is impossible, as the extent of dimensional theory doesn't extend out of the world.

The very next line also goes on to start saying that rather than just being at the top of, but still part of dimensional theory (and thus the world in order for that to be the case) it's the source and creator of everything. So not only is it necessarily independent of the dimensional theories by being beyond the area they even can apply to and describe, it's also necessarily independent it as it created all things. It can't be constrained to being part of something that didn't exist prior.

That is absolutely the case if you take [] and Swirl of the Root as the exact same thing. But the problem is, the thread is attempting to separate them, removing the Swirl's apophatic theology, meaning there's quite literally nothing that prevents it from still being bound to dimensionality, being the apex of it in the verse.

I also want to say that it doesn't quite make sense as a counter to say that because it's outside of everything it can't be bound to dimensions. It could really just be some transcendent thing that is above all other dimensioned things in the verse. But assuming that Swirl and Kara are separate things, I don't really see the capability of Swirl to be 1A. That doesn't mean that it doesn't reflect onto the current stats, just if we took away the Apophatic Theology from the Swirl of the Root.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Transcending Dimensions still qualifies and is only Low 1-C without further context to the cosmology.

This explanation was already accepted, without apophasis.

"According to mystery, there is "power" at the top of all dimensional theories outside of this world.

Coordinates that are the origin of every event. It is, "the vortex of origin" long-cherished wish serving all of the magician...... in the beginning of all things, and The end. The throne of God that can record everything in this world and create everything in this world."

神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。

https://sai-zen-sen.jp/works/fictions/fate-zero/02/01.html"

So not only does the Root control the dimensional theory and what it is, it exists completely outside of it, independent of its definitions. Just as the Luminous Being, this would place it at 1-A, as it's level of existence is independent of the "layers" it exists outside of, being consistent regardless of how they are altered, be it to higher or lower levels.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

this was said in the og thread, but , ill steal crimson's point

regardless of what "dimensional theory" is, the Root would always stay on top.

 

[Tarang123]

this was said in the og thread, but , ill steal crimson's point

That isn’t even 1A on its own if it’s bound to the very same dimensional theory. If you’re taking away Root’s Apophatic theology, then “apex of dimensional theories” has zero basis for scaling anywhere like 1A

 

[Qawsedf234]

This explanation was already accepted, without apophasis.

I think the biggest thing is that the comparison there is flawed. Before the upgrade the Luminous Being was 1-A because it was more powerful than a 1-A realm, which had an Infinite Dimensional multiverse embedded inside of it. The layers were only used show that he's significantly above the other 1-As and he only got High 1-A through a similar method of Negative Theology where he was a DM that could add or remove things from the space below him.

The Root being beyond Dimensional theory isn't a 1-A justification, it's a supporting piece of evidence for Negative Theology, which is the primary 1-A justification.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

OP's original point, which has been disproved already, is so far from the talking point now that anything else is literally worthless.

Didn't know this thread was re-opened good now I can respond what has been disproved are you good?

Yes, I'm sure we are very misinformed, and that only you have the right information, of course.

Yes I have the right information your view of negative theology is just predicated from pure headcanon

Books are literally free in the internet and unlike you I actually read books and I read a book that pertains to negative theology both of them I'm even gonna write my own critique of negative theology

is so far from the talking point now that anything else is literally worthless.

You're delusional this is actual madness

Alright. Due to my origin being "stubbornness,"(get the reference?) I'm not going to give up just yet regarding the root being different from [ ].

If you don't really care about this, you can freely ignore it. But if you do care, please read everything, especially about how Apophatic Theology truly works

I had a talk with my former grade 12 religion teacher for over 2hrs regarding this topic. I'm friends with his son who lives close to me so I was able to see him(yes, I'm that desperate). He studied philosophy and religion in University. He was very surprised that someone like me who hated his religion and philosophy classes, decided to ask him something as complex as Apophatic theology just because of an anime or LN that I love.

I showed him the link to the High 1A thread regarding apophatic theology and how the root was different from [] and he read through everything and I also showed him most of the comments especially Crimson's, Theoretical and Paul Frank's. I then asked him that based on everything he's seen so far from the post and comments on both sides, was the root still the same as [] and was the root still apophatic in nature?

Before he began giving his opinion, he already told me he has no knowledge on this Nasuverse series which is already obvious but he was really amazed that the author of Nasuverse was very talented based on his perfect descriptions and explanation on Apophatic Theology and how he was able to implement it perfectly into his story. He even stated he has never seen any fictional setting that used apophatic theology into their story since this was a very complex study that either religion scholars or philosophical theologists mostly use. And he claimed that the fact that Nasu knew perfectly what Apophatic Theology was, then the implementation of it in his story had to be very good because not everybody that studied philosophy also studied apophatic theology. so for him to know this, then he must objectively understand how it works. The topic itself is almost a sub-branch of philosophy/religion mixed together. Anyways, his complete explanation on this topic is written below;

Firstly, he claimed that in order to understand Apophatic Theology, you need to understand Cataphatic Theology. Since Apophatic Theology is speaking God in negation(that is by saying nothing at all), Cataphatic Theology is the opposite. It speaks of God in what we know about him. He then stated that whatever is said cataphatically in order to understand what God is apophatically always exists but it's not what God is. He then gave me an example of what he meant. He said God is stated to be "omnipotent and all-powerful," and while these terms truly exist, it's not what God is. He is beyond that. In order words, he's saying that "omnipotence" and "all-powerful" are concepts, notions that actually exist, but they would never be enough to describe God. Does that sound familiar? Yes. [] is exactly like that. [] is seen as Swirl of The Root but it's not []. Swirl of The Root exists differently as an ontological physical notion but it's not []. I then asked him to fully explain this scan to me and tell me if there was supposed to be any difference between [] and the root. He wrote everything on a sheet of paper but due to handwriting, I would translate them down. It's written in his POV;

My Religion professor’s View on this subject below


My professor's continuation;

He then gave me this link to get better details on Apophatic Theology and why anything used to describe God might exist, but would never truly be God
https://philarchive.org/archive/SCOWIA-6

Watch them try to go against actual evidence for the nature of negative theology for the benefit of their headcanon

Eh, perhaps that's enough, but I'm still not quite sure. But even if we took this into account, the quote being used for the upgrade doesn't say what they're arguing it does.

No it was used in the first 1-A thread for the root

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

The Root being beyond Dimensional theory isn't a 1-A justification, it's a supporting piece of evidence for Negative Theology, which is the primary 1-A justification.

I've been saying that I read the entire thread most of the statements by wiki standards were too vague to make it 1-A negative theology was mainly used for 1-A or rather solidify it but regardless there are still issues of chain scales happening like people scaling to negative theology but that scaling having layers which contradict negative theology

My proposal is because there are already 1-A things in the nasuverse by scaling to the root ion think it would scale to completely to[] the root would exist beyond that in the ontological hierarchy by being [] because you can't layer negative theology without contradicting it [] would still exists beyond all of those 1-A things aside from void shiki but roa's soul for example

Because of it scales to [] whilst having been destroyed by seventh holy scripture entails
[] >Seventh holy scripture>roa's soul=[]

Whole lot of contradictions

But certain people cough not you but certain people respond quickly and decide to close threads without actually addressing how flawed the scaling chains are rn

Alternatively if people still wanna keep the chain scales then the root doesn't have negative theology hence should be downgraded because certain nasuverse fans can't handle using negative theology without contracting it Considering that every aspect of negative theology is important if one is contradicted all of them are contradicted because they are all important for the nature of negative theology you can posit negative theology to work like negative theology if it has atleast one contradictory element in this case its the mentally insane chain scales happening that I showed above

One of them tried saying because they are connected to the root they resist each other yet at the same time says the connection is different and doesn't establish some people as 1-A which further supports what I'm saying just because they are connected doesn't entail they resist each other the connections differ the responses to the nonsensical chain scales happening rn has only been selective interpretations and not people actually addressing anything

Either the root has negative theology or it doesn't and hence gets downgraded I agree with what you've been saying and I support it

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

The raws that were used for the upgrades. They don't imply that it's beyond dimensional theory, but that it's the actual apex of it, which isn't 1A

One of them said "outside of this world described in dimensional theory" which entails its outside of dimensional theory but I don't speak Japanese neither do I think it would make the root 1-A in itself

but I don't think something can be freed from dualities be said to be beyond dimensional theory which is what some of the translations while still being nothingness that lacks spatial and temporal properties just to still be bound by dimensions at the same time I could get into platonic concepts stuff for the nasuverse too but I remember this site stopped using them idk why so I don't know how they view platonic concepts standards wise at least

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I think the biggest thing is that the comparison there is flawed. Before the upgrade the Luminous Being was 1-A because it was more powerful than a 1-A realm, which had an Infinite Dimensional multiverse embedded inside of it. The layers were only used show that he's significantly above the other 1-As and he only got High 1-A through a similar method of Negative Theology where he was a DM that could add or remove things from the space below him.

The Root being beyond Dimensional theory isn't a 1-A justification, it's a supporting piece of evidence for Negative Theology, which is the primary 1-A justification.

the original crt had it as secondary supporting evidence.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

That isn’t even 1A on its own if it’s bound to the very same dimensional theory. If you’re taking away Root’s Apophatic theology, then “apex of dimensional theories” has zero basis for scaling anywhere like 1A

The root stand above all concepts in the nasuverse regardless of its Apophatic theology, its not even supposed to have Apophatic theology in the first place.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I think the biggest thing is that the comparison there is flawed. Before the upgrade the Luminous Being was 1-A because it was more powerful than a 1-A realm, which had an Infinite Dimensional multiverse embedded inside of it. The layers were only used show that he's significantly above the other 1-As and he only got High 1-A through a similar method of Negative Theology where he was a DM that could add or remove things from the space below him.

The Root being beyond Dimensional theory isn't a 1-A justification, it's a supporting piece of evidence for Negative Theology, which is the primary 1-A justification.

"According to mystery, there is "power" at the top of all dimensional theories outside of this world.

Coordinates that are the origin of every event. It is, "the vortex of origin" long-cherished wish serving all of the magician...... in the beginning of all things, and The end. The throne of God that can record everything in this world and create everything in this world."

神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。

あらゆる出来事の発端とされる座標。それが、すべての魔術師の悲願たる『根源の渦』……万物の始まりにして終焉しゅうえん、この世の全てを記録し、この世の全てを創造できるという神の座である。

e.g anything bound to dimensions, the root stands above.

 

[Qawsedf234]

According to mystery, there is "power" at the top of all dimensional theories outside of this world.

Where are you getting "all" from? The passage just mentions Dimensional Theory without including every Dimensional theory ever.

For that to be a 1-A justification you would need to prove the Nasuverse is High 1-B or Low 1-A on its own.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Where are you getting "all" from? The passage just mentions Dimensional Theory without including every Dimensional theory ever.

For that to be a 1-A justification you would need to prove the Nasuverse is High 1-B or Low 1-A on its own.

This was from the original 1-A root thread,which was accepted

 

[Lormac_CC]

Where are you getting "all" from? The passage just mentions Dimensional Theory without including every Dimensional theory ever.

For that to be a 1-A justification you would need to prove the Nasuverse is High 1-B or Low 1-A on its own.

The new staff thread DT made really hit this point. If implemented, verse wouldn't be able to reach 1-A without having a High 1-B cosmology or statement of it's existence

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The new staff thread DT made really hit this point. If implemented, verse wouldn't be able to reach 1-A without having a High 1-B cosmology or statement of it's existence

Him and ultima seem to have contrasting points, but, all i have to prove is that higher cardinals can exist in the nasuverse.