Root changes and possible High 1-A upgrade

[Qawsedf234]

going from a high 1-A upgrade to a 1-C downgrade that’s crazy

Well this isn't a downgrade. The point I was making is that if the OP wants to separate the Root and [] from each other than the former would be nerfed to 1-C while the latter remains 1-A. There's just no High 1-A justification.

 

[Chasekilleen]

There is also the “eight” dimensions statement, but it is left unclear if it was truly referring to 8D as nothing suggested they were higher dimensional spaces or anything at the time and even now, I remained skeptical of that.

The eight dimension is talking about the layers of the Moon Cell. The context is that the Moon Cell is practically an onion, with the 8th layer being the very core of the Moon Cell.
Hence that's why the scan mentioned that there was a protective barrier that appeared before BB cutting her off from the core.

It was a self protective mechanism to stop attackers from entering its core.

The biggest confusion can also just be dimensional theory. People adding in the word "all" make it sound significantly more impressive than it is. The OP has to prove what dimensional theory the Nasuverse is using and they haven't done so.

It doesn't say all is my concern. It just says the Root stood at the peak of dimensional theory.
People over here saying all these mathematic jargon is all just their own theories with nothing to backup.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I think it's important to note that the Root doesn't actually get downgraded. Just that it won't get upgraded even if we split it into multiple keys

It depends as having specific concepts being mentioned doesn’t inherently get you to 1A unless there are specific contexts that allows that.

Anyway, still neutral since Moon Cell was in the Tier 2s range before it went to Tier Low 1C and 1C.

The Root is something that should been clarified to make sure it remains at 1A

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The eight dimension is talking about the layers of the Moon Cell. The context is that the Moon Cell is practically an onion, with the 8th layer being the very core of the Moon Cell.
Hence that's why the scan mentioned that there was a protective barrier that appeared before BB cutting her off from the core.

It was a self protective mechanism to stop attackers from entering its core.


It doesn't say all is my concern. It just says the Root stood at the peak of dimensional theory.
People over here saying all these mathematic jargon is all just their own theories with nothing to backup.

Oh, right, I forget about the protective barrier of the Moon Cell.

In any case, I will observe this a bit longer.

 

[Tarang123]

It depends as having specific concepts being mentioned doesn’t inherently get you to 1A unless there are specific contexts that allows that.

Anyway, still neutral since Moon Cell was in the Tier 2s range before it went to Tier Low 1C and 1C.

The Root is something that should been clarified to make sure it remains at 1A

It has apophatic theology and would naturally still scale above said dimensional theories to a 1A degree. So it would still remain 1A

 

[Paul_Frank]

Uhhhh what are you on about? I am genuinely confused because it seems you are only confusing yourself and I honestly doubt you have read that Japanese text and understood the meaning.
The meaning of 頂点 in Japanese is self-explanatory, it means the top or apex [insert your synonym for top]

Yes I've read it and I'm aware what it means, hence me saying it was a random word substitution in an attempt to discredit the tl and make yours seem more credible, and nothing else really

BeastLair made the Root sound flowery using weird word jargon.

No, not really, it sounds about the same as everywhere else it's described

In fact, the Japanese version of the quotes I sent from the manga and the visual novel respectively uses the same wording to describe the Swirl of Origin.
Just because it goes against your ideology of Swirl of Origin being 1A, that doesn't I mean I have translated it incorrectly. That sounds like an excuse.

No, it uhh, does mean you tl'd it incorrectly, because the way you tl'd it literally is objectively incorrect, again, see the entire "of our knowledge" thing, that has nothing to do with my ideology, it's just wrong, literally added in out of nowhere, the TL is objectively incorrect, which you conveniently avoided addressing

The eight dimension is talking about the layers of the Moon Cell. The context is that the Moon Cell is practically an onion, with the 8th layer being the very core of the Moon Cell.
Hence that's why the scan mentioned that there was a protective barrier that appeared before BB cutting her off from the core.

This interpretation is literally impossible btw, if you assume the 8th layer is the core, and that they're saying it's a wall that cuts through 8 layers (incorrect btw, the text is very clear about saying dimensions in the raw, entirely different from layers, which they used to describe something entirely seperate on an entirely different occasion), then the wall can't be a sphere around the core's layer while cutting through it, this alone disproves that argument. This isn't even to mention the multitude of other issues with this interpretation, it's just objectively, verifiably, wrong

 

[Chasekilleen]

Yes I've read it and I'm aware what it means, hence me saying it was a random word substitution in an attempt to discredit the tl and make yours seem more credible, and nothing else really
No, not really, it sounds about the same as everywhere else it's described

Am I speaking an entirely different language to you?
"there's a power that governs dimensional theory outside of this world" isn't even an accurate translation. Hell, it is isn't even present in the original raw Japanese scans. The Root never governs anything, there isn't a single implication whatsoever in that scan that says that the Root governs all of dimensional theory. But the word that outright says this was 「神秘学の語るところによれば、この世界の外側には次元論の頂点に在る“力”があるという。」it says "According to occultism, there is a power standing at the top of the dimensional theory that is outside of our world."
You have to actually bring proof to say that it is above all dimensional theory, since you are the one claiming that.

No, it uhh, does mean you tl'd it incorrectly, because the way you tl'd it literally is objectively incorrect, again, see the entire "of our knowledge" thing, that has nothing to do with my ideology, it's just wrong, literally added in out of nowhere, the TL is objectively incorrect, which you conveniently avoided addressing

Yes, I am very sure you have read the raw manga and understood it. Even if it is "outside" like you have understood the context. You still have to prove that the Root is above all dimensional theory, considering it says to be above dimensional theory. Not all.

 

[Theoretical]

he doesn't get erased when going through it, ignoring how this argument doesn't actually even make sense when you look at it and think for more than half a second, I came to realize something.

Despite everything everywhere saying that Roa survives Akasha, and his nickname being the serpent of Akasha, I've realized there's not actually like, a source for that. In which case the entire argument just falls apart because it's entirely predicated on this scaling chain which seemingly doesn't actually exist.

"It fails to erase his soul, so his soul has the durability to withstand it, as we know from Mahoyo, returning there instantly erases and absorbs you, which doesn't happen to him" you in the other thread a couple of days ago

I'm assuming you don't think it's 1-A anymore good

Yes, the subject has started to fall apart again, on the one hand, people who force cosmology High 1-A, on the other hand, those who want the root to be 1-C, on the other hand, different arguments, etc. If you are going to deal with downgrading, open a different thread for it. it needs to be shut down

They have a point tho negative theology was primarily used for 1-A root separating it leads to the root being 1-C and [] 1-A

Now that the 1-A scaling chains don't which is good the root would still only be 1-A

You'd have to make a new thread to make the Root itself 1-A without using negative theology and add negative theology to it already being 1-A without it and make it high 1-A

There is also the “eight” dimensions statement, but it is left unclear if it was truly referring to 8D as nothing suggested they were higher dimensional spaces or anything at the time and even now, I remained skeptical of that.

Why would it not? The moon cell has various statements of higher dimensions

From the core being said to be higher dimensional existence

The imaginary number of space being higher dimensional

BB gaining higher dimensional perspective after reaching

And even in fgo Kiara having created the time cage

But this isn't what the thread is about

Shirou???? Bro is cooking nothing at all

The alternative tls given are also kinda eh? It's a slightly different (if at all) wording choice, in order to try and argue its not the same

In fact, that Zero Manga tl is really weird, you're just changing the tl of 頂点 to top for whatever reason, then the entire part after that reads really weird, "the root of swirl" for instance. And the entire "of our knowledge" part is just, added out of nowhere, like its just not in the text at all, and the way you tl'd it just doesn't work in general.

You also said the tl of Illya's statement is bad but aside from your wording on the first part (which is odd) it's saying like, the same thing with a random word choice change, I'm not sure what your goal with posting that was. To be honest it seems like an attempt to discredit the used TLs, despite your translation there ending up basically the same.

That's crazy

 

[Chasekilleen]

This is going nowhere back and forth and derailing the thread
I think ultimately it is up to the moderators whether they accept or close this thread, but I disagree with the people making the arguments in this thread, but I will make my own thread in the coming weeks.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, it's been rejected three other times recently and this isn't looking any different.

 

[Chasekilleen]

I mean, it's been rejected three other times recently and this isn't looking any different.

Is it possible to close it then? I do not see any worth in keeping this thread open to be honest, unless we are waiting for somebody to make their points?
But it has come to my attention that it seems we have multiple threads wanting to push the Root to H1A despite being rejected every time? Isn't this against the forum rules? I think I have seen at least 5 threads with the same qualities trying to upgrade the Root to H1A.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's only against the rules if it becomes a discussion rule. Though of the OP doesn't bring something new it can be closed for being previously rejected I guess.

 

[Tdjwo]

I brought in a whole new explanations and arguments and I even contacted an expert to explain apophatic theology but everyone just chose to ignore the comment. Wow

 

[Qawsedf234]

You brought up a new explanation but by doing so you changed up the scaling resulting in nothing changing.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

It's only against the rules if it becomes a discussion rule. Though of the OP doesn't bring something new it can be closed for being previously rejected I guess.

The argument is fundamentally different. Also there's a staff discussion thread discussing this very thing ( being above dimensions/dimensional theory)

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The biggest point is this: Nothing given for the Root other than Negative Theology comes close to a 1-A justification. High 1-A would only work if the Root is 1-A, is separated from [] and that [] is unreachable by the Root.

This scaling only works if the Root is 1-A when nothing provided supports it. It's just 1-C or High 1-C based on the Mooncell comment.

The biggest confusion can also just be dimensional theory. People adding in the word "all" make it sound significantly more impressive than it is. The OP has to prove what dimensional theory the Nasuverse is using and they haven't done so.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/6/6b/Screenshot_20201127-173236_Discord-2_(1).jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20210406180315 https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/c/c0/Screenshot_20201127-173130_Discord-1_(1).jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20210406180701
how higher dimensions work in the nasuverse.

Concepts in nasu are layered, meaning dimensions should be layered as well ( the root tries to capture everything on a conceptual level.)

 

[Qawsedf234]

Concepts in nasu are layered, meaning dimensions should be layered as well ( the root tries to capture everything on a conceptual level

A concept being layered does not mean they're layered to infinity and it does not mean geometric dimensions exist in an infinite arrangement.

This is supporting evidence to a higher rating, but it's not a 1-A justification.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

A concept being layered does not mean they're layered to infinity and it does not mean geometric dimensions exist in an infinite arrangement.

This is supporting evidence to a higher rating, but it's not a 1-A justification.

The root is described as an infinite stream.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The root is described as an infinite stream

Infinite Stream doesn't mean it's a Infinite amount of layered infinities higher on it's own. It just means the Root is infinite, which isn't helpful.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Infinite Stream doesn't mean it's a Infinite amount of layered infinities higher on it's own. It just means the Root is infinite, which isn't helpful.

higher infinities exist in the nasuverse

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

This should mean that any recursive stacking of infinities without some form of inaccessibility, the root stands above.

 

[Sniper670]

This should mean that any recursive stacking of infinities without some form of inaccessibility, the root stands above.

"This should mean"

Show us high 1B hierarchy in Nasuverse

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

"This should mean"

Show us high 1B hierarchy in Nasuverse

infinitely stacking concepts ( includes dimensions) = high 1-b
there you go

 

[Qawsedf234]

This should mean that any recursive stacking of infinities without some form of inaccessibility, the root stands above.

Neither of those scans are stacked infinities. Those are showing that for something to be infinite it needs a finite to compare and the Root isn't subjected to that. But that's not the same as infinitely higher dimensions.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Neither of those scans are stacked infinities. Those are showing that for something to be infinite it needs a finite to compare and the Root isn't subjected to that. But that's not the same as infinitely higher dimensions.

Its not saying that at all? It quite literally says it has no limits, but it's finite compared to the root. also quick correction on my earlier point, its not the root thats describes as an infinite stream, but the concepts.

 

[Chasekilleen]

Neither of those scans are stacked infinities. Those are showing that for something to be infinite it needs a finite to compare and the Root isn't subjected to that. But that's not the same as infinitely higher dimensions.

Hi Qawsed, the scan that Marshadow quoted below was said to be a mistranslation by this Coke individual right on the top of the wiki page they copy and pasted from.
I am certain that the English translation by this Coke person correlates to the Japanese text above that translation and I can confirm that Coke's translation is 100% incorrect and it is hyperbolic and flowery. It sounds worse than machine translation.
It is from this website: https://nrvnqsr.fandom.com/wiki/Kara_no_Kyoukai_Resources

 

[Iiliminal]

craaaaazy

 

[Tdjwo]

This is the real correct translation.

Regardless, what Marshadow29 was trying to say still means the same thing.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Literally nothing in this scan talks about stacking infinities, much less infinitely.

 

[Tdjwo]

Literally nothing in this scan talks about stacking infinities, much less infinitely.

The scan is saying no matter how high or long infinities are, they would always be limited in a way that would never be limitless like「　」. Aleph 1 has lesser infinities than aleph 2 and Aleph 2 has lesser than Aleph 3 and so on which means they have limits. But 「　」doesn't have limits because it represents or surpasses the very meaning of infinities.

 

[Tarang123]

Concepts in nasu are layered, meaning dimensions should be layered as well ( the root tries to capture everything on a conceptual level.)

Where does it say that the concepts in Nasuvese are layered? Also, we already know that the dimensions are layered. That's why they get to Tier 1 in the first place.

 

[Tarang123]

infinitely stacking concepts ( includes dimensions) = high 1-b
there you go

Zero evidence for this whatsoever

 

[Tarang123]

The scan is saying no matter how high or long infinities are, they would always be limited in a way that would never be limitless like「　」. Aleph 1 has lesser infinities than aleph 2 and Aleph 2 has lesser than Aleph 3 and so on which means they have limits. But 「　」doesn't have limits because it represents or surpasses the very meaning of infinities.

It doesn't even get to Aleph 1 though. Aleph 0 by nature lacks limits. That's the distinction between finite and countably infinite. Extending a no shit statement like "Root has no limits" into "recursively stacked infinities can't reach it" is a gigantic stretch.

Again, your explanation with aleph 1, 2, 3, etc. only applies if the verse has shown any implication whatsoever that these things exist in the verse, which it doesn't.

 

[Tdjwo]

It doesn't even get to Aleph 1 though. Aleph 0 by nature lacks limits. That's the distinction between finite and countably infinite. Extending a no shit statement like "Root has no limits" into "recursively stacked infinities can't reach it" is a gigantic stretch.

Again, your explanation with aleph 1, 2, 3, etc. only applies if the verse has shown any implication whatsoever that these things exist in the verse, which it doesn't.

Like I said, it really doesn't matter if the infinity or aleph is uncountable. They all have limits. Aleph 0 bu nature has limits. Thats why Aleph 1,2,3 exists. The entire scan is basically saying the word "infinity" cannot exist because infinity itself has limits which is why there are always higher levels of infinity with one surpassing the other. But 「　」represents what doesn't have limits. In short, it's above the very meaning of infinity.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Aleph 0 bu nature has limits. Thats why Aleph 1,2,3 exists

You're confusing Alephs. Aleph-0 is literally infinite. It's the notion of a true infinity. Aleph-X is a mathematical number set that exists if you apply certain mathematical and scientific logic to a group of numbers where you generate issues that require a cardinal set.

But Aleph-0 has no limits.

. In short, it's above the very meaning of infinity.

This isn't a 1-A justification, as there's differing and higher levels of infinity that doesn't involve going into set theory.

 

[Tarang123]

Like I said, it really doesn't matter if the infinity or aleph is uncountable. They all have limits. Aleph 0 bu nature has limits. Thats why Aleph 1,2,3 exists. The entire scan is basically saying the word "infinity" cannot exist because infinity itself has limits which is why there are always higher levels of infinity with one surpassing the other. But 「　」represents what doesn't have limits. In short, it's above the very meaning of infinity.

Doesn't matter. The amount of extrapolation that's necessary to get to that interpretation is insane. By this same logic, that scan would get the root beyond the tiering system which is absurd, especially by this single scan. Again, you're extrapolating things that are never implied or explained. The "infinity has limits" would refer to higher dimensions at best, with the Root being unbound by this entirely.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The scan is saying no matter how high or long infinities are, they would always be limited in a way that would never be limitless like「　」. Aleph 1 has lesser infinities than aleph 2 and Aleph 2 has lesser than Aleph 3 and so on which means they have limits. But 「　」doesn't have limits because it represents or surpasses the very meaning of infinities.

You’re making a hasty generalization, and assuming “infinity” here refers to every single Aleph number ever, which just isn’t stated. As the people mentioned above, there are many infinities. Aleph-0 has no limits, but it’s beyond infinitely smaller than Aleph-1, and so forth. As it stands, Nasuverse (outside of the Root) reaches Aleph-1, uncountably infinite, due to 6-8D structures existing. Based on the evidence that is provided, we can only assume it refers to those infinities, that are rightfully and contextually below the Root (which is still accepted as the same as “ ” as of right now).

Unless you can explicitly prove the existence of these infinities past Aleph-1, this is an outrageous interpretation.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

You’re making a hasty generalization, and assuming “infinity” here refers to every single Aleph number ever, which just isn’t stated. As the people mentioned above, there are many infinities. Aleph-0 has no limits, but it’s beyond infinitely smaller than Aleph-1, and so forth. As it stands, Nasuverse (outside of the Root) reaches Aleph-1, uncountably infinite, due to 6-8D structures existing. Based on the evidence that is provided, we can only assume it refers to those infinities, that are rightfully and contextually below the Root (which is still accepted as the same as “ ” as of right now).

Unless you can explicitly prove the existence of these infinities past Aleph-1, this is an outrageous interpretation.

Just and extremely small nitpick but is actually 7-9D considering the outer gods, the rest of things are fine.

 

[Robo432343]

Just and extremely small nitpick but is actually 7-9D considering the outer gods, the rest of things are fine.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I know, I feel ashamed of myself.