Root changes and possible High 1-A upgrade

[Tdjwo]

Attack Potency: Outerverse level (Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls[2] and exists at the summit of all dimensional theories[3], existing independently of it's definitions. It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition[4]. While spoken of as the "Spiral of Origin", this term cannot be applied to its true essence as 「　」, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」[5])

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Attack Potency: Outerverse level (Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls[2] and exists at the summit of all dimensional theories[3], existing independently of it's definitions. It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition[4]. While spoken of as the "Spiral of Origin", this term cannot be applied to its true essence as 「　」, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」[5])

yea that seems like enough justification

 

[GrathOfLux]

I love how this thread is effectively trying to debate a topic where the subject of the topic can't be spoken. I feel like this would make for a good Monty Python skit.

Jokes aside, there's a clear confusion the past few messages on this thread has brought up that, without resolving, will never lead to a consensus on this topic; why exactly is the Swirl of the Root or the Spiral of Origin 1-A in the first place?

It's been suggested that this is because of "apophasis", and that this applies to「　」rather than the Swirl of the Root/Spiral of Origin - in this case, upgrading to High 1-A would indeed be eating your cake and having it too. But people have been contending that this isn't what the 1-A rating is based on, or at least, the Swirl of the Root / Spiral of Origin would be 1-A without it. In which case, there's an argument to be made here.

Despite having watched Kara no Kyoukai in the past, I've been almost entirely out-of-the-loop with Nasuverse discussions on the wiki. I don't know who is correct about what the 1-A justification is supposed to be, but clearly someone is correct and someone is incorrect. We'd aught to clear up this confusion first and foremost.

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

The Swirl of the Root's profile was accepted as 1-A because of apophasis. The "beyond dimensional theory" is used as supporting evidence, and wouldn't be 1-A on its own

I already told them this

From Roa reaching it despite it being supposedly "apophatic" to concepts getting traced to it despite it being supposed to be above every conception.

Roa's soul scaling to [] has to be the most stupidest shit that I've heard

I love how this thread is effectively trying to debate a topic where the subject of the topic can't be spoken. I feel like this would make for a good Monty Python skit.

Despite having watched Kara no Kyoukai in the past, I've been almost entirely out-of-the-loop with Nasuverse discussions on the wiki. I don't know who is correct about what the 1-A justification is supposed to be, but clearly someone is correct and someone is incorrect. We'd aught to clear up this confusion first and foremost.

There's another more active arguing that right now

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

When the root is mentioned it's referring to Kara, its always meant to. The quote from Nasu is just explaining that naming it at all is inaccurate because of negative theology

Referring to something doesn't mean the reference is that something if you took the references to be that thing it's not negative theology send the root back to 1-C because it has no negative theology or you don't do that hence you don't use contradictory things like saying a reference to it is it which would contradict negative theology entirely

The main point of [] in negative theology was to avoid predicates, references and descriptions of being indescribable alike being [] without it the ineffability Paradox ***** it over because references and indescribable descriptions can be applied hence the notion itself wouldn't exist in the way its been posited to exist

Hence to say the references are [] is a contradiction and contradicts negative theology is that hard to understand?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Referring to something doesn't mean the reference is that something if you took the references to be that thing it's not negative theology send the root back to 1-C because it has no negative theology or you don't do that hence you don't use contradictory things like saying a reference to it is it which would contradict negative theology entirely

The main point of [] in negative theology was to avoid predicates, references and descriptions of being indescribable alike being [] without it the ineffability Paradox ***** it over because references and indescribable descriptions can be applied hence the notion itself wouldn't exist in the way its been posited to exist

Hence to say the references are [] is a contradiction and contradicts negative theology is that hard to understand?

Are you like, purposely being obtuse or are you just actually incapable of understanding what's being said?

Yes those things are meant to describe kara, but describing kara at all, even as something which can't be described, is inaccurate, that's just how negative theology works, it's like, super simple actually

 

[Theoretical_Toxic19]

Yes those things are meant to describe kara, but describing kara at all, even as something which can't be described, is inaccurate, that's just how negative theology works

Holy people in this wiki are so misinformed you're getting scammed on the books that you're reading bro assuming they are actually books and headcanon unlike where my information is coming from

Now now now listen listen you're using negative theology the symbol of [] if you didn't know again is from negative theology meaning what it stands for in actual negative theology which was something I explained for you yet you still can't understand its the ineffability thesis again

It seeks to avoid predicates, references and descriptions such as indescribable being a paradoxical semantically to negative theology because negative theology posits a being that can't be described hence those things shouldn't apply to it without contradicting the ineffability thesis avoids that by using the symbol [] which is simply means God cannot spoken off you must just stay silent that's the true nature of God in negative theology references don't apply to it the fact that nasu also implemented that symbol and said a reference spiral of Origin is not [] since spiral of Origin was spiral of Origin it cannot be []

It's simply used wrongly in the wiki lol

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Holy people in this wiki are so misinformed you're getting scammed on the books that you're reading bro assuming they are actually books and headcanon unlike where my information is coming from

Yes, I'm sure we are very misinformed, and that only you have the right information, of course.

If you're not gonna add anything of value, which is what looks to be the case (literally what are you even saying in that last sentence????), I'll just close this. OP's original point, which has been disproved already, is so far from the talking point now that anything else is literally worthless.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Yes, I'm sure we are very misinformed, and that only you have the right information, of course.

If you're not gonna add anything of value, which is what looks to be the case (literally what are you even saying in that last sentence????), I'll just close this. OP's original point, which has been disproved already, is so far from the talking point now that anything else is literally worthless.

How has it been disproved exactly? It’s impossible for both Kara and the lower conceptual versions of the root to have apophatic properties as roa’s soul reached akasha without being assimilated into it, which should be impossible for a truly apophatic entity/location , that is supposed to be inaccessible .

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Anyway, closing the thread without letting the op at least make a rebuttal isn’t very fair in my opinion

 

[1Nairove]

I still think it's 1A^2 instead of High 1-A

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I still think it's 1A^2 instead of High 1-A

being inaccesible by a 1-A automatically makes you H1-A

 

[Tarang123]

The dimensional theory is vague? How? I always thought that statement by itself was pretty underrated and should scale way higher than just 1A since it encompasses theories of every dimensional statement based on mathematic principles..

Which has zero basis from Nasuverse. Nasuverse doesn't have mathematic principles or dimensional theories that go beyond its 1C dimensions

 

[Tarang123]

being inaccesible by a 1-A automatically makes you H1-A

That is a blatant falsehood. It's why there are layers to 1A, which are the equivalent of viewing a 1A entity of structure as if it were like 10B or something.

From our FAQ:

A: No. Due to making use of a much larger measuring stick in comparision to lower tiers (Power sets of infinite sets, as opposed to adding individual dimensions), the gap between any two levels in 1-A actually exceeds the entire system below them, and is equivalent to repeating the whole process which led to the previous level on a much higher scale. Thus, most statements that make use of such comparisions would only amount to one further level into the tier, unless some additional context showing it to be higher is present.

 

[Chasekilleen]

Which has zero basis from Nasuverse. Nasuverse doesn't have mathematic principles or dimensional theories that go beyond its 1C dimensions

Nasuverse is at most 1C even with Root included. The Moon Cell being 1C is false and Fate Extraverse at its very peak is at most universal via statements from 殺生院キアラ powers.
I'll make a CRT in a few days to debunk the entirety of Fate Extraverse then I would move onto Kara no Kyoukai.
You guys already wasted my time by making me go read the second and third volume with no substantial evidence to say that Nasuverse is 1A.

 

[Tarang123]

How has it been disproved exactly? It’s impossible for both Kara and the lower conceptual versions of the root to have apophatic properties as roa’s soul reached akasha without being assimilated into it, which should be impossible for a truly apophatic entity/location , that is supposed to be inaccessible .

If they aren't apophatic, then they aren't 1A. Probably the biggest reason why they're 1A to begin with is because of Apophatic Theology, with the dimensional theory stuff being probably the strongest supporting evidence. Besides, like @Paul_Frank and @BestMGQScalerEver said, it isn't saying what you think it's saying, and therefore isn't some superiority statement of Kara.

If it wasn't clear, I disagree for reasons given above

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Nasuverse is at most 1C even with Root included. The Moon Cell being 1C is false and Fate Extraverse at its very peak is at most universal via statements from 殺生院キアラ powers.
I'll make a CRT in a few days to debunk the entirety of Fate Extraverse then I would move onto Kara no Kyoukai.
You guys already wasted my time by making me go read the second and third volume with no substantial evidence to say that Nasuverse is 1A.

You could just make the thread instead of bitching about it constantly without anything to show you know

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Nasuverse is at most 1C even with Root included. The Moon Cell being 1C is false and Fate Extraverse at its very peak is at most universal via statements from 殺生院キアラ powers.
I'll make a CRT in a few days to debunk the entirety of Fate Extraverse then I would move onto Kara no Kyoukai.
You guys already wasted my time by making me go read the second and third volume with no substantial evidence to say that Nasuverse is 1A.

Make a crt please

Thanks

 

[Tarang123]

Nasuverse is at most 1C even with Root included. The Moon Cell being 1C is false and Fate Extraverse at its very peak is at most universal via statements from 殺生院キアラ powers.
I'll make a CRT in a few days to debunk the entirety of Fate Extraverse then I would move onto Kara no Kyoukai.
You guys already wasted my time by making me go read the second and third volume with no substantial evidence to say that Nasuverse is 1A.

If we go by this wiki, I don't see Nasuverse being below 1A due to how Apophatic Theology works

 

[DaReaperMan]

Nasuverse is at most 1C even with Root included. The Moon Cell being 1C is false and Fate Extraverse at its very peak is at most universal via statements from 殺生院キアラ powers.
I'll make a CRT in a few days to debunk the entirety of Fate Extraverse then I would move onto Kara no Kyoukai.
You guys already wasted my time by making me go read the second and third volume with no substantial evidence to say that Nasuverse is 1A.

There's a discussion rule against nerfing Fate/Extra/ the Mooncell cause it's been tried and failed miserably over a dozen times with the same shit worded differently every time, there literally is not a new argument you could bring up that'd change that

It can and will be closed immediately, don't waste your time.

Either way, 》《 would just be a layer above the root in 1-A by the logic of this CRT, not High 1-A, so i disagree with that

 

[Tarang123]

It can and will be closed immediately, don't waste your time.

Considering how things have been recently (DB), I kind of doubt that. If he could bring in new info that wasn't there earlier, I think it could put some interesting things to light.

Either way, 》《 would just be a layer above the root in 1-A by the logic of this CRT, not High 1-A, so i disagree with that

I was speaking to Ultima, but if we went by the proposals in the OP, it would definitely be High 1A. Being apophatic over a 1A thing is High 1A, and satisfies the definitions given in the tiering system.

However, the proposals, imo, aren't correct, so it doesn't get a High 1A rating

 

[DaReaperMan]

Considering how things have been recently (DB), I kind of doubt that. If he could bring in new info that wasn't there earlier, I think it could put some interesting things to light.


I was speaking to Ultima, but if we went by the proposals in the OP, it would definitely be High 1A. Being apophatic over a 1A thing is High 1A, and satisfies the definitions given in the tiering system.

However, the proposals, imo, aren't correct, so it doesn't get a High 1A rating

There isn't anything new, that's the point. Literally every extra title(And more shit outside of it) has had Literally everything to use milked dry and then there's been attempts to milk some more. ***** been happening since Fate got to Uni+ in like 2018 or 2019.

That'd be interesting at least

 

[Chasekilleen]

There's a discussion rule against nerfing Fate/Extra/ the Mooncell cause it's been tried and failed miserably with the same shit worded differently every time, there literally is not a new argument you could bring up that'd change that

Then am I able to clarify if they were bringing up the Japanese versions? Because the raw text from what I have read is pretty clear and cut and the context of those dimensions are talking about the layers and floors that the Moon Cell has. And I doubt the thread moderators are going to close the thread as my evidence are damning.

Make a crt please

Thanks

交给我吧。

 

[DaReaperMan]

Then am I able to clarify if they were bringing up the Japanese versions? Because the raw text from what I have read is pretty clear and cut and the context of those dimensions are talking about the layers and floors that the Moon Cell has. And I doubt the thread moderators are going to close the thread as my evidence are damning.

交给我吧。

Ah yes, the raws that have been brought up, translated like half a dozen times, and used to upgrade it.

Your "damning" evidence has been used before, I assure you.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Here's the cow that was used for the arguments against the moon cell. Looks pretty dead don't it?

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Nasuverse current CRT be like.

 

[Chasekilleen]

Here's the cow that was used for the arguments against the moon cell. Looks pretty dead don't it?

I find this picture ironic because all 4 of these H1A upgrade Root where everyone has disagreed except for 3 Nasu ""fans"" think that it'll get accepted by creating clones of the same upgrade thread, which is silly and a waste of time IMHO. Anyway, I'll say that the translation Wordpress blog called iwakura contains a lot of miconceptions and mistranslations and I doubt the person who used those scans "knew" Japanese, considering Japanese is quite contextual heavy, using DeepL/Google Translation to translate those texts isn't going to yield an even remotely accurate result.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I find this picture ironic because all 4 of these H1A upgrade Root where everyone has disagreed except for 3 Nasu ""fans"" think that it'll get accepted by creating clones of the same upgrade thread, which is silly and a waste of time IMHO. Anyway, I'll say that the translation Wordpress blog called iwakura contains a lot of miconceptions and mistranslations and I doubt the person who used those scans "knew" Japanese, considering Japanese is quite contextual heavy, using DeepL/Google Translation to translate those texts isn't going to yield an even remotely accurate result.

They didn't use MTL, if they did they probably woulda gotten called out on it.

And trust me, I feel the same about these CRTs, I'm not even supporting this one, I'm explicitly against it lol

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

If they aren't apophatic, then they aren't 1A. Probably the biggest reason why they're 1A to begin with is because of Apophatic Theology, with the dimensional theory stuff being probably the strongest supporting evidence. Besides, like @Paul_Frank and @BestMGQScalerEver said, it isn't saying what you think it's saying, and therefore isn't some superiority statement of Kara.

If it wasn't clear, I disagree for reasons given above

It’s more like the reverse, I looked at the original crt and apophatic theology was listed at the very end.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

That is a blatant falsehood. It's why there are layers to 1A, which are the equivalent of viewing a 1A entity of structure as if it were like 10B or something.

From our FAQ:

Characters who can affect objects that are larger than what the logical framework defining 1-A and below can allow, and as such exceed any possible number of levels contained in the previous tiers, including an infinite or uncountably infinite number. Practically speaking, this would be something completely unreachable to any 1-A hierarchies.

A concrete example of such an object would be an inaccessible cardinal, which in simple terms is a number so large that it cannot be reached ("accessed") by smaller numbers, and as such has to be "assumed" to exist in order to be made sense of or defined in a formal context (Unlike the standard aleph numbers, which can be straightforwardly put together using the building blocks of set theory). Even just the amount of infinite cardinals between the first inaccessible cardinal and aleph-2 (Which defines 1-A) is greater than cardinals such as aleph-0, aleph-1, aleph-2, aleph-3, etc., and even many aleph numbers whose index is an infinite ordinal.. More information on the concept is available on this page.


falsehood how?

 

[Tarang123]

Characters who can affect objects that are larger than what the logical framework defining 1-A and below can allow, and as such exceed any possible number of levels contained in the previous tiers, including an infinite or uncountably infinite number. Practically speaking, this would be something completely unreachable to any 1-A hierarchies.

That's not what it means to be inaccessible. A being from a higher dimension is inaccessible to 3D characters. We don't give them a 1A rating based on that. When they say "larger than the logical framework", they're basically saying things like being apophatic to a 1A thing. It's beyond any kind of description to the point where no amount of hierarchal jumps would get there.

Being inaccessible could be done with a single higher dimensional transcendence

 

[Tarang123]

It’s more like the reverse, I looked at the original crt and apophatic theology was listed at the very end.

It's listed at the end, but the other stuff are basically supporting pieces of evidence. The only one that has any actual weight to it is the "dimensional theory" one, and even that is under question due to other interpretations.

 

[Maxeez]

It's listed at the end, but the other stuff are basically supporting pieces of evidence. The only one that has any actual weight to it is the "dimensional theory" one, and even that is under question due to other interpretations.

Well, 「　」also transcends the world and is completely free from conceptual binary oppositions since the Taiji for example captures the essence of everything on a conceptual level, that should include the very concept of dimensions. Being free from all the extensions of that concept no matter how many dimensions there are is already a good argument for 1-A by itself.

Q: How can a character be 1-A and above without an infinite-dimensional/infinitely-layered cosmology, then?

A: A good way to accomplish this would be to show that whatever state of being in which they exist is completely independent of the number of layers/dimensions present on the setting. For example, if they are unaffected by dimensions being arbitrarily added or removed from physical space by virtue of transcending it entirely, or if they exist as a "background" or canvas of sorts in which any amount of them can be inserted. This argument generalizes to tiers higher than 1-A as well.​

 

[PrinceofPein]

This has been rejected already, so this should be closed

 

[Tarang123]

Well, 「　」also transcends the world and is completely free from conceptual binary oppositions since the Taiji for example captures the essence of everything on a conceptual level, that should include the very concept of dimensions. Being free from all the extensions of that concept no matter how many dimensions there are is already a good argument for 1-A by itself.

Eh, perhaps that's enough, but I'm still not quite sure. But even if we took this into account, the quote being used for the upgrade doesn't say what they're arguing it does.

 

[Maxeez]

This has been rejected already, so this should be closed

Yeah, I don’t know for which reasons this has been reopened.

Eh, perhaps that's enough, but I'm still not quite sure. But even if we took this into account, the quote being used for the upgrade doesn't say what they're arguing it does.

I guess it’s a matter for another time . This isn’t even the thread to discuss that to begin with.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Yeah, I don’t know for which reasons this has been reopened.

I guess it’s a matter for another time . This isn’t even the thread to discuss that to begin with.

The reason the thread was closed was invalid to begin with, I brought it up with an admin and they let me re-open it

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

That's not what it means to be inaccessible. A being from a higher dimension is inaccessible to 3D characters. We don't give them a 1A rating based on that. When they say "larger than the logical framework", they're basically saying things like being apophatic to a 1A thing. It's beyond any kind of description to the point where no amount of hierarchal jumps would get there.

Being inaccessible could be done with a single higher dimensional transcendence

That doesn’t exactly work for 1-A and above, as they are infinites, adding 1 to infinity is still infinity.
also that is not how complete inaccessibility works

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Eh, perhaps that's enough, but I'm still not quite sure. But even if we took this into account, the quote being used for the upgrade doesn't say what they're arguing it does.

How? Kara is already accepted as having apophasis, this thread is mainly splitting the root into two keys, if one of them is 1-A without apophasis, then.. you get the idea

 

[Tdjwo]

Everything written below is basically a copypasta from my comment on the Nasuerse discussion thread I made 2 days ago that almost nobody read or discussed.

Alright. Due to my origin being "stubbornness,"(get the reference?) I'm not going to give up just yet regarding the root being different from [ ].

If you don't really care about this, you can freely ignore it. But if you do care, please read everything, especially about how Apophatic Theology truly works

I had a talk with my former grade 12 religion teacher for over 2hrs regarding this topic. I'm friends with his son who lives close to me so I was able to see him(yes, I'm that desperate). He studied philosophy and religion in University. He was very surprised that someone like me who hated his religion and philosophy classes, decided to ask him something as complex as Apophatic theology just because of an anime or LN that I love.

I showed him the link to the High 1A thread regarding apophatic theology and how the root was different from [] and he read through everything and I also showed him most of the comments especially Crimson's, Theoretical and Paul Frank's. I then asked him that based on everything he's seen so far from the post and comments on both sides, was the root still the same as [] and was the root still apophatic in nature?

Before he began giving his opinion, he already told me he has no knowledge on this Nasuverse series which is already obvious but he was really amazed that the author of Nasuverse was very talented based on his perfect descriptions and explanation on Apophatic Theology and how he was able to implement it perfectly into his story. He even stated he has never seen any fictional setting that used apophatic theology into their story since this was a very complex study that either religion scholars or philosophical theologists mostly use. And he claimed that the fact that Nasu knew perfectly what Apophatic Theology was, then the implementation of it in his story had to be very good because not everybody that studied philosophy also studied apophatic theology. so for him to know this, then he must objectively understand how it works. The topic itself is almost a sub-branch of philosophy/religion mixed together. Anyways, his complete explanation on this topic is written below;

Firstly, he claimed that in order to understand Apophatic Theology, you need to understand Cataphatic Theology. Since Apophatic Theology is speaking God in negation(that is by saying nothing at all), Cataphatic Theology is the opposite. It speaks of God in what we know about him. He then stated that whatever is said cataphatically in order to understand what God is apophatically always exists but it's not what God is. He then gave me an example of what he meant. He said God is stated to be "omnipotent and all-powerful," and while these terms truly exist, it's not what God is. He is beyond that. In order words, he's saying that "omnipotence" and "all-powerful" are concepts, notions that actually exist, but they would never be enough to describe God. Does that sound familiar? Yes. [] is exactly like that. [] is seen as Swirl of The Root but it's not []. Swirl of The Root exists differently as an ontological physical notion but it's not []. I then asked him to fully explain this scan to me and tell me if there was supposed to be any difference between [] and the root. He wrote everything on a sheet of paper but due to handwriting, I would translate them down. It's written in his POV;

My Religion professor’s View on this subject below

The Almighty God = 「Kara」.
Omnipotence = Swirl of The Root.

“Omnipotence” is a notion we humans brought forth in an attempt to comprehend the “incomprehensible God.” To us, the notion of “omnipotence” exists, and can only be used for God. But in an Apophatic sense, that is impossible because even we don’t actually know what God is which is why by claiming God is omnipotent, he is no longer God. So even if he can perform omnipotent actions, he is still beyond that notion we humans formed for him. From what I can see, “Swirl of The Root” seem to follow the exact same thing as omnipotence. It exists as the epitome of power in this fictional universe of yours. But while it does exist physically, it seems to be completely different from 「　」 In an ontological sense. This entire quote you showed me proves that;

“If you really wished to pronounce the term, call it「Kara」”
This first line is the second most important part of the entire statement. It claims that 「　」meant Kara. A Japanese word for “Emptiness” or “Nothingness.” 「　」is an Apophatic attempt to describe what the ineffable 「　」is. That means the symbol 「　」is God. In short, 「　」is the silent way of saying God(Apophatic Theology) by saying nothing or doing nothing, which makes quite a lot of sense since its translation is called “Kara,” which also means “Nothingness.”
“Its meaning varied depending on each individual's understanding. To put it in simple terms, it was the Spiral of Origin.”
Just like how we call God different things like Omnipotent, all-powerful, unbeatable, etc, 「　」is also called differently by human beings. However, this existence called “Spiral of Origin” is the unified terms that the human’s comprehensibility is limited to.
“However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer 「　」.”
Now right here, this is the most important sentence of the entire statement. Infact, this is where the entire notion of Apophatic Theology comes from. Remember, 「　」is seen as the word "Kara." It’s completely different from the word Spiral of Origin. After all, you(he meant me) showed me that the Japanese italics used(he meant Kanji) translated them differently. Kara got translated to Emptiness「　」while Spiral of Origin had different italics(kanjis). Now, what this sentence means is that since everybody saw Spiral of The Origin as Spiral of The Origin, it was no longer what the ineffable 「　」is. It became an entirely new separate entity. And completely different from 「　」. I’m truly amazed at how savant this author used this theology in his story. It is very confusing based on the arguments I saw from you(me) and those in the comments arguing that they are the same. If I were to look at it from a neutral point of view, and assume that this author 100% understands negative theology, then it means Spiral of Origin cannot be the same as 「　」. The only thing that is the same as 「　」is its translated version which is Kara/Nothingness. The first sentence explicitly made that clear. It said we should call it "Kara." But Spiral of Origin is an existence that is derived from Kara, the same way the word “omnipotence” is used to describe God and God alone. So while both notions do exist, ie, God can do omnipotent things/Spiral of Origin is the epitome of power in the story, they are both still not God/「Kara」.
And furthermore, you showed me a part in the story where that woman who you claimed had a powerful form called 「　」travelled to that 「　」(He's talking about this entire scan;

"...Indeed. Shiki is incapable of causing anything but destruction. And as far as you're concerned, I'm Shiki after all."
"---Shiki?"
"...My Origin is Nothingness. As a result, Shiki, who is possessed of that body, can perceive death. Two years ago--- when she fell into a coma, the outside world was shut off to her. Her vision turned inward toward the nothingness called Ryougi Shiki, and she felt the touch of death.
Shiki floated on the sea known as the spiral of origin for a long, long time. A solitary form in the void of 「　」."
...With an Origin like "Nothingness" the girl would certainly feel compelled to return everything to nothing.
Therefore, she was able to kill all things without exception. Even if the personality of Shiki tried to deny it, her soul itself was oriented toward the death of everything.
"That is Shiki's ability. Just like Asagami Fujino, she has a unique channel that can see things normal humans can't. Eyes that can glimpse the spiral of origin, itself a microcosm of the greater world.

But, I can dive even deeper than she. Or rather... I suppose you could say that I myself am that spiral - Kara no Kyoukai (Original epilogue)

My professor's continuation;

Based on what I read from that section, it looks like that woman is perfectly capable of understanding the 「　」 and that is proven to be true because she stated that her origin was "Nothingnes" which translates back to「Kara」. But later, she also said that she floated on a sea known as “The Spiral of Origin” which had different translations from the word used to describe 「Kara」. This means she is able to understand that in order for her to reach 「　」, she must travel or should I say, “float” across the “sea” of the spiral of origin. Later on, she stated that it took her a long, long time travelling on the sea of spiral of the origin located in the empty void of 「　」indicating that spiral of origin is indeed inside 「　」but far, far away from 「　」. The same way, omnipotence is something God can do, but not what God is. I admire the reference from the author. After that, she uses the word, “Nothingness” again to indicate what her origin was. She could have said “Spiral” or “Swirl,” but she didn’t. Instead, she says “Nothingness” which is her origin. This is similar to the cataphatic description of God being claimed as “God is the Holy Trinity” which means, God is the Father, God is The Son, and God is the Holy spirit.” But in an apophatic sense, God is beyond that even if in a way, he is able to be that. This description is similar for Shiki as well. Her origin is Nothingness/Kara. But the word “origin” is also used with “Spiral of Origin” which means while Shiki has an origin of “Kara” there’s also a “Spiral” that Shiki floats on to reach her origin, Kara/Nothingness. This is why Shiki describes Spiral of Origin as a “Sea” in the void of 「　」. The same way the holy trinity is merely a cataphatic way of describing the wholeness of God. Now, as I said earlier, since God is Apophatic, nothing is ever going to be enough to describe him. And nothing is ever going to reach him, comprehend him, and understand him. Everything in this world has contradictions to the understanding of God. Everything is in negation to the understanding of God. Even the bible. Genesis 2:1-3 claims that God rested on the seveth day after creation. Meanwhile, Psalms 121 says he didn’t. So God is so mystical till the point that nothing would ever truly reach God. If the author of this story truly understands Apophatic Theology which I believe he does, then characters who reached The spiral of origin would only furthermore prove that the spiral of origin isn’t what he intended to be apophatic. After all, even the spiral of origin isn’t Kara「　」. But since 「　」has never been reached as you claimed and the only person with an access to it is Shiki, specifically, Void Shiki due to her being it, then it proves only 「　」is the ineffable existence.
Without reading everything, it’s easy to break it down.
Kara is the Japanese word for Nothingness. Kara and Nothingness are both words used to pronounce the stygm「　」.
Spiral of Origin is like how we see “omnipotence.” They are notions that exist but aren’t enough to claim what God/ 「　」is. For instance, I can’t say I worship Omnipotence. Instead, I say I worship God. Nobody can reach 「　」but they can reach Spiral of Origin(for some of them at least). So the mere fact that some of these characters or concepts reached the spiral of origin already makes the existence of that spiral a cataphatic one. That means he’s reachable. But 「　」has never been reached by anyone.

Anyways, I hope this was able to help you and your fellow debaters understand Apophatic Theology, and I hope you become as invested as this for your upcoming final exams. Happy Easter.

He then gave me this link to get better details on Apophatic Theology and why anything used to describe God might exist, but would never truly be God
https://philarchive.org/archive/SCOWIA-6