Root changes and possible High 1-A upgrade

[Tarang123]

If it wasn't obvious before, I disagree with this. You'd have a better time arguing for High 1A rather than 1A+, which just lacks any basis whatsoever

 

[Maxeez]

If it wasn't obvious before, I disagree with this. You'd have a better time arguing for High 1A rather than 1A+, which just lacks any basis whatsoever

I mean, yeah, but he would have to argue why these concepts are all 1-A in the first place.

 

[ImmortalDread]

* platonic concepts *

 

[Robo432343]

* platonic concepts *

outerversal confirmed

 

[Maxeez]

* platonic concepts *

Should work only if properly explained and if it meets the standards .

 

[AizenSosuke]

Agrees

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I mean, yeah, but he would have to argue why these concepts are all 1-A in the first place.

These concepts are already stated to be 1-A by the work itself, im not talking about every concept in the nasuverse, just the ones regarding "「　」" like concepts

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Why would this lead to 1A+. An infinite amount of them wouldn't be 1A+, but just an infinite amount of 1A entities

1A+ is literally infinitely above baseline 1-A, which an infinite amount satifies

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

These screenshots, which are accepted by the vsbw

dont talk about "「　」", and therfore, arent "「　」", so my point still stands

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

I mean, yeah, but he would have to argue why these concepts are all 1-A in the first place.

These screenshots, which are accepted by the vsbw

dont talk about "「　」", and therfore, arent "「　」",and are different concepts, so my point still stands

 

[Maxeez]

These concepts are already stated to be 1-A by the work itself, im not talking about every concept in the nasuverse, just the ones regarding "「　」" like concepts

Where exactly ? It would greatly help your OP if you posted such scans.

1A+ is literally infinitely above baseline 1-A, which an infinite amount satifies

No. The Root is apophatic to the whole verse and is inaccessible/ineffable to everything else as such. In that case, it would be completely inaccessible to already 1-A concepts thus making it High 1-A, as someone else said above :

You'd have a better time arguing for High 1A rather than 1A+, which just lacks any basis whatsoever

These screenshots, which are accepted by the vsbw
dont talk about "「　」", and therfore, arent "「　」", so my point still stand

And these concepts, while accepted as 1-A when all put together, are also accepted to be the Root itself, therefore making it 1-A.
You'd have to prove that "「　」" is a separate, higher thing than these.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Where exactly ? It would greatly help your OP if you posted such scans.

No. The Root is apophatic to the whole verse and is inaccessible/ineffable to everything else as such. In that case, it would be completely inaccessible to already 1-A concepts thus making it High 1-A, as someone else said above :



And these concepts, while accepted as 1-A when all put together, are also accepted to be the Root itself, therefore making it 1-A.
You'd have to prove that "「　」" is a separate, higher thing than these.

However, since the Spiral of Origin was called the Spiral of Origin, it was no longer ' '.

the original work already says it is seperate, though nothing on if its higher, but by default knowledge of how the cosmology works, they have to be on a lower plane than「　」. the currently accepted description in the vsbw wiki also supports this

The Root contains and transcends all previous states, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The only character in verse that is capable of giving a true description of 「　」 is possibly ryougi

 

[Maxeez]

the original work already says it is seperate, though nothing on if its higher, but by default knowledge of how the cosmology works, they have to be on a lower plane than「　」. the currently accepted description in the vsbw wiki also supports this

Okay then are you saying that since the concepts that are being attributed to 「　」are already accepted as 1-A, it should be tiered higher since it automatically exists above all definitions and logics that we give it ? Is that your proposition ?

In this case, it would be High 1-A and not 1-A, as I said earlier.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Okay then are you saying that since the concepts that are being attributed to 「　」are already accepted as 1-A, it should be tiered higher since it automatically exists above all definitions and logics that we give it ? Is that your proposition ?

In this case, it would be High 1-A and not 1-A, as I said earlier.

Yea, thats what im trying to say here

 

[Maxeez]

Yea, thats what im trying to say here

Alright, that looks better than before, I'm changing to neutral for now.
I'd advise you to edit your OP a bit and use that instead.

 

[Tdjwo]

Like I said before,「　」being High 1A based on all the scans shown so far makes much more sense than root being 1A+ cuz nothing really implies infinitely layered 1A concepts. Only infinite amounts of 1A concepts being unreachable to 「　」

If it's for High 1A, I agree with the CRT

If it's for 1A+ I disagree with the CRT.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Alright, that looks better than before, I'm changing to neutral for now.
I'd advise you to edit your OP a bit and use that instead.

done.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Like I said before,「　」being High 1A based on all the scans shown so far makes much more sense than root being 1A+ cuz nothing really implies infinitely layered 1A concepts. Only infinite amounts of 1A concepts being unreachable to 「　」

If it's for High 1A, I agree with the CRT

If it's for 1A+ I disagree with the CRT.

it might even be an aleph-2 amount of 1-A concepts. The original idea i had for this thread was an H1-A change, but i wasnt so sure

 

[Theoretical]

Should work only if properly explained and if it meets the standards

I'm pretty sure platonic concepts don't scale

But the ontological nature of forms is that they are aspatial and atemporal, absolute/pure (colloquially denoted as immaterial and unchangeable) and are that which things of the material world exemplify properties from them

The origin does meet all of those criterias but I doubt it would scale forms don't scale anymore in the wiki which it should but the wiki is the wiki

Where exactly ? It would greatly help your OP if you posted such scans

The origin comes directly from the root I think that's what he is using to infer it being 1-A but I don't know why is he still pushing this he should just wait for me to make a high 1-A crt with better arguments than this

And these concepts, while accepted as 1-A when all put together, are also accepted to be the Root itself, therefore making it 1-A.

Which concepts again? There are no concepts that are the root itself that contradicts the nature of the root it seems to me alot of people here have trouble understanding negative theology

You'd have to prove that "「　」" is a separate, higher thing than these

Separate to what? It's descriptions and everything in the verse? Yes it is

the original work already says it is seperate, though nothing on if its higher, but by default knowledge of how the cosmology works, they have to be on a lower plane than「　」

The symbol that you're using already entails it being above that which is separate from already and yes everything in the nasuverse would be not on a lower plane but ontological greater than that it's not a matter of planes but a matter of ontology

The only character in verse that is capable of giving a true description of 「　」 is possibly ryougi

No she can't there's no true description of it, it can't be described that again contradicts its nature ryougi was inside of it and she still couldn't describe it, that's its nature even a person connected to it can only describe it as being indescribable i

If it's for High 1A, I agree with the CRT

I suppose if you want it to be high 1-A I'll present some scans and the argument for that a little bit later to help with the CRT

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Which concepts again? There are no concepts that are the root itself that contradicts the nature of the root it seems to me alot of people here have trouble understanding negative theology

Spiral of Origin, the root, Maelstrom of origins,Akashic Records, Source Maelstrom

 

[1Nairove]

Dude thinking about making root H1A seems impossible for this short crt, at least you could have reopened this crt with better and more solid arguments, it seems a bit farce

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Dude thinking about making root H1A seems impossible for this short crt, at least you could have reopened this crt with better and more solid arguments, it seems a bit farce

The only counter argument ive seen is " hurdur they're the same concept" which is pretty much debunked by the work itself
they cannot be the exact same concept, because「　」is meant to be indescribable. Any concept in the nasuverse is automatically a part of 「　」.

 

[Theoretical]

Spiral of Origin, the root, Maelstrom of origins,Akashic Records, Source Maelstrom

Oh ye then it does exist beyond that

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

No she can't there's no true description of it, it can't be described that again contradicts its nature ryougi was inside of it and she still couldn't describe it, that's its nature even a person connected to it can only describe it as being indescribable i

Yeah i said possibly because she's an avatar of it, so she has the most accurate definition

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

Oh ye then it does exist beyond that

Yea, pretty much any attempt to name 「　」or describe 「　」 is moot, its emptiness

 

[Maxeez]

I'm pretty sure platonic concepts don't scale

But the ontological nature of forms is that they are aspatial and atemporal, absolute/pure (colloquially denoted as immaterial and unchangeable) and are that which things of the material world exemplify properties from them

The origin does meet all of those criterias but I doubt it would scale forms don't scale anymore in the wiki which it should but the wiki is the wiki/

Yes, I know that, which is why those concepts qualify for 1-A only if properly elaborated on and if they meet the required standards for the tier.

The origin comes directly from the root I think that's what he is using to infer it being 1-A but I don't know why is he still pushing this he should just wait for me to make a high 1-A crt with better arguments than this

Fine, this CRT badly started so it would probably be better.

Which concepts again? There are no concepts that are the root itself that contradicts the nature of the root it seems to me alot of people here have trouble understanding negative theology

No. What I meant is that all the definitions, conceptions, descriptions etc that you apply to 「　」are automatically below it because of its apophatic nature ; which is why it would make 「　」High 1-A if said definitions/conceptions are already 1-A by themselves. But I'm not entirely sure of its validity for some reasons, thats why I'm staying neutral for now.

Separate to what? It's descriptions and everything in the verse? Yes it is

Yes, that's what I meant and agree with.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

No. What I meant is that all the definitions, conceptions, descriptions etc that you apply to 「　」are automatically below it because of its apophatic nature ; which is why it would make 「　」High 1-A if said definitions/conceptions are already 1-A by themselves. But I'm not entirely sure of its validity for some reasons, thats why I'm staying neutral for now.

what makes you unsure?

 

[Maxeez]

what makes you unsure?

The definitions/concepts we are already accepting as 1-A are also heavily supported by negative theology and inaccessible transcendance over the rest of the verse. It would mean that we're scaling 「　」to High 1-A via negative theology off of negative theology, which is weird when you think about it.

But anyways that's not really that big of a problem and I'll stay neutral until further input.

 

[1Nairove]

The only counter argument ive seen is " hurdur they're the same concept" which is pretty much debunked by the work itself
they cannot be the exact same concept, because「　」is meant to be indescribable. Any concept in the nasuverse is automatically a part of 「　」.

Can you write to the staff to make the thread more specific? if they join, it won't be anything that stops this thread (I'll probably join too, lol)

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

The definitions/concepts we are already accepting as 1-A are also heavily supported by negative theology and inaccessible transcendance over the rest of the verse. It would mean that we're scaling 「　」to High 1-A via negative theology off of negative theology, which is weird when you think about it.

Not really weird if you think about it, just that lower level beings cant describe it in its entirety.

 

[Maxeez]

Not really weird if you think about it, just that lower level beings cant describe it in its entirety.

Probably, that's why I'm not disagreeing nor am I fully agreeing for now. I'm leaning towards agreeing but would rather wait for more people to voice out their opinion on that matter.

 

[Theoretical]

My justification for the root being high 1-A goes as follows starting with this scan to which I elaborate on from there

The root is directly implied to unreachable through a stacking of infinities

I know people have a problem interpreting stuff properly so I'll explain better as to how this is implied

"the concept of infinity is twinned with the concept of finite existence. It is this finite existence, this is end of all things that shiki ryougi observes with her arcane eyes, and the same end that she cuts to make entropy act quickly almost immediately. The prison she was contained in was made to be infinite, an inconceivable non-Euclidean space"

This explains how conventional infinity has limits

Actual infinity is completed as a collection, the idea is further extrapolated on using the analogy of an non-Euclidean space which is still an infinite space but with limits because for any dimension X it would be infinite but the limit comes from the next dimension which is a directly higher infinity

So for 2 dimensions it would be infinity^infinity in hyperbolic geometry/non Euclidean geometry and the idea is carried on to any dimension up to 1-A+ the arithmetic and principle stays the same all the way up to 1-A+ the limit of the infinity relative to the the first dimension would be infinity|^infinity, it can't reach the second dimension which is a higher infinity

As you know powersetting one infinity to reach another is an arithmetic operation that carries on all the way up to 1-A+ as well and powersetting a set of natural numbers is 2^n or infinity^infinity which is still a similar arithmetic to the hyperbolic geometry stacking of any dimension X take 2 dimensions for now being infinity^infinity

Getting into to the root in comparison which it is said that

"the only denial of end that exists is the true nothingness of " "."

Essentially what this means is that the root distinct from such infinities and with the arithmetic operations used in those infinity cannot be used on the root, this is why infinities that use arithmetic operations of infinity^infinity can be cut by shiki ryougi who can perceive the end of such infinities due to her eyes being connected to the root which is an infinity of a fundamentally greater scale to such infinities and why for her such infinities are only small rooms as said "to this girl, the space was nothing more than a room with its door unbarred and unguarded"

This makes it clear cut that the root would be ontologically equivalent to the inaccessible cardinal in magnitude and should be high 1-A

Furthermore the origin is accepted to exist within the root and should be 1-A as such we've already had people like roa who is accepted as having a 1-A soul that exists within the root from which he can reincarnate from

The ontological nature of the root would exists inaccessibly greater than such baseline 1-A things and should be more supporting evidence for it being high 1-A

 

[Tdjwo]

My justification for the root being high 1-A goes as follows starting with this scan to which I elaborate on from there

The root is directly implied to unreachable through a stacking of infinities

I know people have a problem interpreting stuff properly so I'll explain better as to how this is implied

"the concept of infinity is twinned with the concept of finite existence. It is this finite existence, this is end of all things that shiki ryougi observes with her arcane eyes, and the same end that she cuts to make entropy act quickly almost immediately. The prison she was contained in was made to be infinite, an inconceivable non-Euclidean space"

This explains how conventional infinity has limits

Actual infinity is completed as a collection, the idea is further extrapolated on using the analogy of an non-Euclidean space which is still an infinite space but with limits because for any dimension X it would be infinite but the limit comes from the next dimension which is a directly higher infinity

So for 2 dimensions it would be infinity^infinity in hyperbolic geometry/non Euclidean geometry and the idea is carried on to any dimension up to 1-A+ the arithmetic and principle stays the same all the way up to 1-A+ the limit of the infinity relative to the the first dimension would be infinity|^infinity, it can't reach the second dimension which is a higher infinity

As you know powersetting one infinity to reach another is an arithmetic operation that carries on all the way up to 1-A+ as well and powersetting a set of natural numbers is 2^n or infinity^infinity which is still a similar arithmetic to the hyperbolic geometry stacking of any dimension X take 2 dimensions for now being infinity^infinity

Getting into to the root in comparison which it is said that

"the only denial of end that exists is the true nothingness of " "."

Essentially what this means is that the root distinct from such infinities and with the arithmetic operations used in those infinity cannot be used on the root, this is why infinities that use arithmetic operations of infinity^infinity can be cut by shiki ryougi who can perceive the end of such infinities due to her eyes being connected to the root which is an infinity of a fundamentally greater scale to such infinities and why for her such infinities are only small rooms as said "to this girl, the space was nothing more than a room with its door unbarred and unguarded"

This makes it clear cut that the root would be ontologically equivalent to the inaccessible cardinal in magnitude and should be high 1-A

Furthermore the origin is accepted to exist within the root and should be 1-A as such we've already had people like roa who is accepted as having a 1-A soul that exists within the root from which he can reincarnate from

The ontological nature of the root would exists inaccessibly greater than such baseline 1-A things and should be more supporting evidence for it being high 1-A

I agree. Although, you should probably start your own crt since this crt is already falling into shambles.

 

[1Nairove]

I agree. Although, you should probably start your own crt since this crt is already falling into shambles.

Can't the OP change the scale he wrote and put it on? or it may make more sense to open a new sequel title

 

[Tdjwo]

Can't the OP change the scale he wrote and put it on? or it may make more sense to open a new sequel title

It would make more sense to open a new one imo.

 

[Theoretical]

Disagree:

@Theoretical,@1Nairove​

You can remove me from here I agree now that it's high 1-A I disagreed with 1-A+ especially with the reasons for it

 

[Theoretical]

It would make more sense to open a new one imo.

Bruh I don't feel like writing allat again it's a pain

 

[1Nairove]

So I'm neutral on the subject, maybe I can agree

 

[Tdjwo]

Bruh I don't feel like writing allat again it's a pain

Alright. Should I help creating the CRT myself then?