Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?)

[Dargoo_Faust]

Another thing to note is that Enkidu also states that Ea when used by Servant Gil is much weaker than when Living Gil used it.

That's sort of contradicted by FGO, if we're taking Gilgamesh's statement of being a servant seriously he also states that he was at his full power when combating Tiamat, as he was at his peak when he was alive. Ea being significantly weaker would contradict this. Although if you want to argue that it was special circumstances I guess that's fine, just pointing it out.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Yet in the LN it was repeatedly stated that Enkidu was using the energy of the entire planet, which was used interchangibly with World, of which Ea was repeatedly stated that it would destroy. Primary sources are seen as more valid for feats than secondary sources anyways. My main schtick is that if it isn't a translation error, the language is saying World = The Planet = Earth. I'm fine if this was a mistranslation, I would just like confirmation on that.

Nope

"It was as if the planet itself had come into that location, and funneled a gigantic amount of mana into it. It was enough to delude one into thinking that Gaia, the Counter Force of the planet, was opposing Gilgamesh's power to destroy the World."

It's saying that the Planet/Counter Force is giving him massive amount of magical energy. He's not channelling the entire planet's energy as that would mean Living Gil's Ea>>>Servant Gil's Ea=Planet's Power. Enkidu later counters a boosted Ea by channelling more energy from the Counter Force as well.

World and Planet aren't used interchangeably here, in the LN itself they describe the world like they describe a texture.

"The resulting pressure wave sundered the nearby space. The World itself was sucked up by the chasm of the Void, and turned inside out. Who would believe that this scene was caused by the swing of a sword? The Void emerged from the chasm, rupturing space further. The World eroded, giving way to countless fissures in reality"

"Enkidu, The Chisel of the Gods, stitched the sundered World anew as it drove a straight line at its target, meeting the world-tearing Sword of Rupture in a violent clash."

Enkidu was stitching back the layer not the planet.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

That's sort of contradicted by FGO, if we're taking Gilgamesh's statement of being a servant seriously he also states that he was at his full power when combating Tiamat, as he was at his peak when he was alive. Ea being significantly weaker would contradict this. Although if you want to argue that it was special circumstances I guess that's fine, just pointing it out.

I don't get your point, it was living/ghost Gil that was fighting Tiamat why would that have anything to do with Servant Gil. Living Gil's Enuma Elish matches up with him saying it's his peak form.

"While a vast power trampled Heaven and Earth and smashed the World on its path toward him, Enkidu smiled with an expression of deep relief. It was an attack devoid of deceit or subterfuge. Though it lacked the sheer magnitude it had during the Age of Gods, the nature of his power was exactly as it had been."

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Or you could deduce Enki was > planetary range in AP due to statements regarding Ea. We aren't given any sort of specifics on how fast the surface formation was or if it took any amount of effort on Enki's part so you couldn't really argue that the statements afterwards are outliers in that regard.

No because backscaling like that is ridiculous especially when Ea doesn't have any planet level statements or feats. He's literally the deification of the force that built the surface how are you going to claim that his power surpasses the concept he's deified as?

 

[RegisNex1232]

The term used for World in Nasu is õ©ûþòî, Sekai, which can be found in the Japanese kanji for Anti-World (Õ»¥þòîÕ«ØÕàÀ), which is what Ea is classified as since it targets the World/Texture of reality. This is completely different from Anti-Planet (Õ»¥µÿƒÕ«ØÕàÀ), which refers to NPs targetting the actual planet. So you'd have to prove that Japanese authors can't understand their own language when they distinguish between the two or that the translators are also that incapable that their continuous capitalization of World is just pointless.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

More like you can't understand the basic concept that different words can mean the same thing.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I honestly don't care for the scaling as much as I care about the translation of the terms, @Ramses.

If planet is not referring to, well, a planet, in that context, please explain that first and formost, or confirm what Regis is claiming. I can't really put forward a debate without setting terms first, I hope that's reasonable. After that I'll make an argument for or against 5-A Ea.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't get your point, it was living/ghost Gil that was fighting Tiamat why would that have anything to do with Servant Gil. Living Gil's Enuma Elish matches up with him saying it's his peak form.

Apologies for the misunderstanding; Regis was claiming it was Servant!Gil, I was adressing that.

 

[RegisNex1232]

More like you can't understand the basic concept that different words can mean the same thing.

Not when they are explicitly being used to differentiate between two different things. An ass and a donkey could refer to the same thing, but most people don't mean a donkey when they call you an ass. Especially when this comes from all sorts of extra materials.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, but the fallacy of your assertion comes from the idea that because world can mean something other than planet, an idea you have never succesfully pushed well enough to me not to mention how I fail to see how the definition you give of a world downgrades the characters, that it will always mean something else.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You have been posting nothing but nonsense while refusing to back up your ridiculous assertations that two different Japanese terms refer to the same thing. On the other hand, I have actually provided the original Japanese for these terms and shown why they are not the same and cannot be referring to the same thing.

I have given you two different terms, made up by Nasu himself that he uses to differentiate between two different things. You seem to have nothing but a basic lack of comprehension and an incapability to actually go on Google to look this up. Why should anyone take your word on this matter?

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

I honestly don't care for the scaling as much as I care about the translation of the terms, @Ramses.

If planet is not referring to, well, a planet, in that context, please explain that first and formost, or confirm what Regis is claiming. I can't really put forward a debate without setting terms first, I hope that's reasonable. After that I'll make an argument for or against 5-A Ea.

In what context are we talking about here?

Gil vs Enkidu?

 

[RegisNex1232]

Pretty much, since that's the only thing he was discussing with quotes.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

From the Distinction between Anti-World and Anti-Planet, Holmes' explanation, Merlin's explanation and Lostbelts. We can see that "world" or the new term Nasu is using "texture" is different from planet.

GoA

"My apologies. Next is the Holy Lance. Instead of a weapon to defeat a foreign enemy, it's something that stabilizes the planet... or rather, it acts as an anchor for the planet. Earlier, you mentioned fairyland. It isn't some in some completely different world. It's beneath your feet -- in the reverse side of the world, separated from us by a thin film." "Beneath my feet... underground?" "You can think of it that way. Put another way, beneath the foundation we call your world, there exists a gap called fairyland, and the earth's surface is below that. Both your world and fairyland nothing more than layers. Textures. Each of them are aspects attached to the earth's surface." "Textures... Britain, you mean?" "Not just Britain. The entire human world. In fact, Britain is a tad special."

Translated by Mew here

Holmes' explanation from Camelot Ch14

"There is a theory that our world — the human world — is nothing more than one of the textured layers that wrap the surface of the planet, like a carpet. To the planet, this is the consciousness of the intelligent lifeforms that reign supreme. In other words, our physical laws. The "carpet" that maintains the laws of physics is our world. It is stitched to the planet so that it does not peel away. This seems to be the phenomenon called the Tower of the End. It is also not limited to Britain. There are multiple such pillars located throughout the world. One is the holy lance in the hands of the Lion King."

When Ea attacks the world it's in the context of layer/texture due to the new cosmology information we have and it's nature of breaking reality with a space-time rend to reveal the planet's primordial form where it cuts the layer.

"Time and space severance by means of Ea, the Sword of Separation. The dislocation of the wind pressure, compressed and clashing inwardly, turns into a pseudo space-time dislocation, pulverizing everything which stands to oppose it."- FGO Mats I

"The entire universe that had been compressed beyond limit focused around Ea, and was released by its wielder's slash. The resulting pressure wave sundered the nearby space. The World itself was sucked up by the chasm of the Void, and turned inside out. Who would believe that this scene was caused by the swing of a sword? The Void emerged from the chasm, rupturing space further. The World eroded, giving way to countless fissures in reality.

Gil using Enuma Elish in HA. As you see here, it rips open the world with its space-time rend and shows the primordial world before it stitches itself back.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The description of a World actually makes Gil's feat more impressive than planet-busting since he is actually ******* up an entire planet-sized pocket reality with its own space-time.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Still bringing up the False Equivalency of World and Planet?
"Enuma Elish: Star of Creation that Separated Sky and Earth: EX Not exactly the Noble Phantasm name but refers to the sword of separation Ea's full release form. It is considered the planet creating weapon that in the distant past separated the sky and earth. Through compression via alternating inversion a windstorm beyond human understanding faults, dislocating space and time pulverizing the target along with the world."

Remember how this is what Prisma Illya says on the power of Enuma Elish It's literally described as a "planet creating weapon" that pulverizes the target along with the world.

Which is further backed up by Gilgamesh himself, who says that it "literally created the world from nothing" and that he will blast Illya away along with her world.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Well he's not cutting up the entire planet's texture only where Enuma Elish hits.

Loptr Laegjarn on the other hand burns down an entire texture and everything in it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Enuma Elish can destroy the planet as stated ad-nauseum in many descriptions, how is this even an argument. You are treating complimentary knowledge and information as if it is exclusive and contradictory when there is none.

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

"Nega Saver is clearly talking about Base Kiara not Beast Kiara as it's in Base Kiara's Section"
"Although the scale of the existence of the Pleasure Deva that was born once on the moon is superior to Beast III, they say that she had no choice but to withdraw when faced with a messiah since she did not possess this skill."

Nope.

And yet it isn't on Beast III's profile

 

[JBennett]

When it's charging up, space is destroyed in a localized area around the blade. When it's actually swung after its true name is called, reality is torn apart until nothing but the barren rock that is Earth without Gaia is left. This is the case normally, except when in a reality marble, in which case, the reality marble is destroyed.

So basically the initial strike doesn't even cause much beyond a hole in Reality, then everything else crumbles as a result of that. Am I right on that? I mean in Fate/strange Fake it sure did take a while between when Ea was activated and when Enkidu used his Enuma, and nothing else was effected to that degree. Thinking about it more it seems more like a form of hax rather then pure destruction.

 

[Solacis]

It still physically clashes with Excalibur, so it's not like it doesn't have destructive potential. It's just that the hax is separate from the attack.

 

[JBennett]

I know it can I was more talking about it's Anti-World Properties.

If we are trying to make the claim that Ea was used to create the world then wouldn't that contradict Tiamat building the world, Ea is base on Enki while Tiamat was 'killed' by Murduk Enki's son. Or am I missunderstanding that?

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

And yet it isn't on Beast III's profile

So? Why does it matter if it's mentioned in both entries or not.

CCC Kiara was close to Saver, called "omnipotent" and could one shot origin Servants who could freely over-spec their stats to match BB's Star parameters. Beast Kiara has nothing on par with that. Not to mention that they straight up say that Beast Kiara is weaker than CCC Kiara in the entry. You have no basis to claim that Beast Kiara is stronger.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Gilgamesh nevertheless defeats CCC Kiara, and even if Kiara being held back is legit Gil still survives her Noble Phantasm so he'd still be 5-A even then.

Nope, Kiara's NP was held back so it wouldn't one shot him or the other origin Servants. No one in CCC scales to her besides Saver, Arc and Amaterasu.

 

[Wokistan]

The calc is off the NP happening in the game though. If she's being held back at the time, she'd be 5-A held back since that was the feat that was calced.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Well he's not cutting up the entire planet's texture only where Enuma Elish hits.
Loptr Laegjarn on the other hand burns down an entire texture and everything in it.

In all fairness, Enuma Elish never really hits the planet's texture due to plot-based reasons, so that's not really an argument. We only see it properly land and do shit in pocket realities as Gil nuking the Earth wouldn't really be much of a way to end any story. The abundance of statements, which I haven't really seen much evidence brought forward to disprove the use of the word planet in them (And apparently Prisma Illya has a statement I was unaware of too), should be enough as it is for the weapon.

Again, even if Nasu has something with "World" and "Planet", I'd like to know that the same standard holds for Strange Fake first.

 

[GalaxianAegis]

If the planet is really destroyed, wouldn't that mean it also destroys the Reverse Side as well?

This could have some really weird implications when it comes to places like Avalon which is referred to a 6 Dimensional space on Shirou Emiya's profile.

Anyone can feel free to correct me on this stuff, but wouldn't that put its potential range even higher than what it is now?

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

So? Why does it matter if it's mentioned in both entries or not.

It might be because the 2 entries are for different versions of the same person? Alter Ego is technically just a vastly weakened version of III/R so "Beast III" in the guidebook doesn't automatically refer to III/R, especially when it isn't even on actual III/R's profile.

CCC Kiara was close to Saver, called "omnipotent" and could one shot origin Servants who could freely over-spec their stats to match BB's Star parameters. Beast Kiara has nothing on par with that.

Beast Kiara is portrayed as outright > BB in the CCC event so idk how that's relevant.

Not only that, but the very same event basically says that FGO Kiara's fate was bound to CCC's by Zepar, as in she was literally forced to become CCC Kiara even before she had metamorphosed into Beast III. https://imgur.com/a/R7gPvrB

Beast III/R is quite literally CCC Kiara but with Beast powers.

ot to mention that they straight up say that Beast Kiara is weaker than CCC Kiara in the entry. You have no basis to claim that Beast Kiara is stronger.

Except for the fact that the exact same guidebook states that Kiara's powers, more specifically the very one that allowed her to become a Bodhisattva in the first place, became stronger after becoming III/R, on III/R's own profile no less.

Under Myriad Colored Stagnation on her profile, this is stated:

"The thing that metamorphosed Sessyoin Kiara into a demonic Bodhisattva. A heretic technique once created by Kiara in a certain cyber world. It was a medical software the separated the target's body, mind and soul, stripping the soul naked (without the protection of the body or the mind) so it could listen to their woes and remove their anguish. Of course, that was just a front. These defenseless souls, detached from the body and mind, were absorbed into Kiara's own soul, making sure to savour them carefully, while claiming this was salvation. The power of the ultimate form "charm", or "enthrallment". This power has only become stronger with her transformation into a Beast."

Compare these to a single guidebook statement that isn't even from III/R's profile and it should be obvious as to what's actually reliable.

Beast Kiara being >= CCC Kiara is beyond concrete.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Again, a lack of feats doesn't really indicate a capability of the said feat. Ea at best was making tears in reality that were nowhere near planetary, while AP wise being stronger than Excalibur. Pocket realities are already inherently weak by their nature as they require a lot of mana to maintain and are constantly being crushed by the World. So why, would you rate something at 5-A simply through speculation? And why would Prisma Illya, an explicit non-canon spinoff be used as feats for the main verses.?

Yes, the standards hold for Strange Fake, given that every author uses Nasu's terminology.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Strange Fake has planet level feats lul. Ea is at least 5-B given its own feats.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Strange Fake has planet level feats lul. Ea is at least 5-B given its own feats.

Strange Fake has a fancy light show and that's it. Anything else is you making shit up because you refuse to consider what the author's terminology even means. Failing to not only read but also understand this is hardly something to be expected from an admin. Especially one who refuses to understand Japanese terminology for some inane reason and thinks that the authors are idiots when everyone else can actually tell the difference.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not a fancy light show, please chill and stop with the insults. I did read and also saw the feats and the clear statements, the fact that people disagree with you does not make them idiots.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You really haven't understood anything, when people knowledgeable in the verse have to take the time to explain basic differences in the terminology used that gives context to said feats. I have given you the Japanese terms as Nasu and co use them, yet you refuse to acknowledge it because, in your opinio, they don't know anything about the words they made up to use for describing specific things.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I understood a lot, Regis. A lot of my arguments come from people who actually play Fate and know the verse pretty much. All that you're giving me is your interpretatio of the statements which I don't agree with. You can't push your opinion around as fact.

 

[RegisNex1232]

This is bunk when you haven't actually given anything beyond a translation and your own misinterpretations. Ram and I have actually given varipus details explaining the difference between World and planet as per Nasu's usage of these terms, and why going by that Ea doesn't come close to what ypu claim it can do. I'm pretty sure that if you had gotten info from people who actually play and know about Fate, this wouldn't be a problem as this would have easily come up.

 

[GodEmperorNorton]

When it comes to the Kiara size debate, I have something that might be useful to have so I thought I would post it. Kingprotea is the only character in the game that was stated to be able to grow to planet size and beyond, but Kiara actually has an infinte growth skill she got from Kingprotea. The problem I have though is that the description is lacking and the translation for the skill uses a different name than the ones on the site here so I can't say im positive that changing her size is one of its effects.

The translation: https://www.reddit.com/r/FGOGuide/comments/99xm65/the_profile_of_sesshouin_kiara_from_fategrand/

 

[RegisNex1232]

The problem is, like you said, she doesn't seem to be able to use it like Kingprotea. And Ram has already pointed out that Kiara's attack is a mental attack on tge scale of the planet and that the visuals also show Hakuno/Servants being near Kiara's size. We already know that these Servants can't change size so there's ultimately not much supporting Kiara growing in size.

 

[JBennett]

She's also only that size when she's pleasuing herself afterwards she returns to normal, during which she's never shown to grow or shrink when she's done.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Regis, I positively think you should take a page out of Ram and actually explain things in detail so there's no misunderstandings, Dargoo was obviously speaking off from the pespective of Planet and World meaning what they would normally mean without the context of Nasuverse terms.

@Dargoo Narita has talked with Nasu extensively and is mindful about the nature of the verse, as seen when he fuses about Enkidu being so OP in stats or certain bits of info from the novel being leaked though the FGO game and deliberate changes being made to account for that. And you say there's nothing to discount the planet statements, despite Servant Gilgamesh using Ea being very directly stated by Enkidu to not compare to Living Gilgamesh, or Enkidu's Ea directly stating it increases in power in proportion to the destructive deeds of the opponent against the World or Humanity... destructive deeds Gilgamesh doesn't. At no point the narration implies Enkidu is using the full power of the planet, he even boosts his attack when Gil does the same. And it's in the Counter Force's nature to rarely ever use more power than needed. Problem happens? Just enough force to snuff the problem out, nothing more or less. Back up from the planet for Arcueid? Always just a little more than the opponent, nothing more and nothing else.

Not to mention this would still end up in a causal line of Servant Gil>>Living Gil>>>>>Servant Gil.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I've been talking with Regis on Discord (since it seems really volitile here) about the terms/nature of the verse; we're still discussing feats and scaling however I'm at least aware of the cosmology at play here, which honestly might deserve a blog of its own similar to TES/GOW.

I'll probably make a more lengthy post about this later.