Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?)

[Dargoo_Faust]

And go figure, iskandars ionais hetaior (botched that) is shown to be large enough to contain a su which might actually be an outlier for Fate/Zero gil but this most certainly substantiates Ea's hype.

oh christ a sun, quick upgrade every servant to High 4-C

Would be a massive outlier for Iskander, and I'd point out that a Sun isn't seen in the anime, although IDK if one was described in the LN.

There's Reality Marbles like Achilles Kosmos that are explicitly the scope of a planet, though, which requires a Anti-World Phantasm to properly destroy.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

He didn't, is the point. That statement doesn't clarify that part beyond "Ea existed while the Earth was a burning hunk of rock and made it habitable". And so far Nasu hasn't clarified on how exactly the Earth was formed beyond small snippets like this.

It explicitly says "building of the planet" after that statement, though.

Nonetheless Ea (the God) shaping the world's surface isn't exactly a contradiction of the abundance of planetary statements in regards to Ea (the Weapon).

 

[RegisNex1232]

Kosmos is a defensive Bounded Field, similar to but not quite a RM. The main difference is that it represents the Greek World and not inner Achilles. It's Anti-World, and was beaten by an Anti-Divine Vasavi Shakti, which was also used up by that.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Which is clarified by the earlier qualifier.

There are no planetary statements save for when people mistake World for the planet.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Doesn't it specify that it's the world that Achilles saw?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Kosmos is a defensive Bounded Field, similar to but not quite a RM. The main difference is that it represents the Greek World and not inner Achilles. It's Anti-World, and was beaten by an Anti-Divine Vasavi Shakti, which was also used up by that.

Vasavi Shakti destroying a world as an Anti-Divine Phantasm makes sense to me, considering it's meant and can be used to kill gods.

Again the crux of this is just translation. I would again ask to wait for native speakers to comment here before debating futher.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Which is clarified by the earlier qualifier.
There are no planetary statements save for when people mistake World for the planet.

Again the crux of this is just translation. I would again ask to wait for native speakers to comment here before debating further.

 

[RegisNex1232]

And I'm fine with that, just pointing out that classifications aren't amything but just what the NP is supposed to be used on.

 

[Wokistan]

Don't we usually use the official translations when they're not blatantly awful?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We tend to go by that, yes.

Also Regis, please tone down the appeal to authority. You like to dismiss everyone who disagrees with you as ignorant.

 

[RegisNex1232]

You aren't exactly that knowledgeable about the verse and I'm not sure why people should take your word over others who have actually read the source material and at times translated it. Especially when stuff like Extra CCC or FGO mats have no official translations.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Oof, you sure have a way with words and understand the request to not be aggressive.

 

[JBennett]

I do agree that we will need more then just Ea in order to justify 5-A in general. It Being Anti-world doesn't mean it can destroy a Planet automatically since many other Anti-World NP don't even come close to being capable of destroying a Planet. Vij├▒aptim─ütrat─ü is simply Fujino's mystic Eyes, Eightfold Blessing can be Anti-World and it has a range of a Countery, and Hanging Gardens which is simply Semiramis's Flying Fortess.

Anti-World simply means it's capable of effecting the Common Sense of Mankind, which is not a full planet but rather is the size of the planets surface, so we would need something else to justify Large Planet Level.

 

[Wokistan]

In all fairness that particular message isn't that far off from some of yours from not too long ago.

Let's try and stick to debating the merits of people's arguments as opposed to their merits as users though.

 

[JBennett]

I do have a question towards anyone who are really familiar with Fate, what excatly happens when Ea is active? Does the world blow up? get Slashed?

 

[LukaSolosYourVerse]

Just gonna put it out here that Beast III/R is > CCC Kiara and that Reddit translation bit isn't even from III/R's profile.

 

[Elaine6493]

Btw if you didn't know, the translation of CCC > Beast is extracted from Alter-Ego/Base Kiara in which Chaldea summons. Not from the profile of Beast III/R Kiara.

Beast III/R: https://imgur.com/a/EfV4AvW

Chaldea: https://imgur.com/a/MlBWQaf

Base Kiara having that translation note holds no water in regards to Beast III/R when in SE.RA.PH event, we witness Kiara gain the power she possessed within CCC to then further transform into Beast III/R.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

https://imgur.com/a/EfV4AvW

https://imgur.com/a/MlBWQaf

Here are the scans, delete the e-hentai links.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Edited in the links, deleted the jokes/derailment on them.

 

[Solacis]

I do have a question towards anyone who are really familiar with Fate, what excatly happens when Ea is active? Does the world blow up? get Slashed?

When it's charging up, space is destroyed in a localized area around the blade. When it's actually swung after its true name is called, reality is torn apart until nothing but the barren rock that is Earth without Gaia is left. This is the case normally, except when in a reality marble, in which case, the reality marble is destroyed.

 

[Solacis]

For clarification's sake, even if Ea doesn't destroy the physical planet, it's still planetary-scale reality warping/destruction, isn't it? Just that anything born from Gaia can't live on the barren Earth, which would then be verse equalized in matches. In which case, it's still at least 5-B via hax. Not sure if it's completely relevant, but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It has a damage component as shown in UBW when Gil swings it in Shirou's direction and nearly kills him doing so while mildly renovating the landscape. It's full scope hasn't really been seen since in Strange Fake it got canceled out by Enkidu which made that giant flower image people like to post. Apart from RMs, which are fragile due to the World of Man and Counter Force trying to remove it, costing a lot of mana just to maintain it, Ea hasn't done anything like say Surtr's Loptr Laegjarn, which has actually done the sort of Texture/reality destruction on a large scale that Ea is claimed to be capable of.

 

[Solacis]

But Full Power Rhongomyniad also does the same texture-desctruction thing that Loptr can, just that it's limited to the the topmost layer over the Reverse Side, isn't it? Ea is supposed to be superior to Rhon, so it doesn't seem to far-fetched. And while it's purely speculation, the Counter Force likely wouldn't stop Enuma Elish so vehemently if it wasn't capable of destroying at least the one texture.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Could you show where you read that? It's not something I've seen regarding LL and Rhon.

Ea and Rhon aren't really compared to each other, so I'm not sure how to compare them.

The thing is that the current texture covers the whole planet, and the current claim is that Ea can tear it all. This hasn't been shown anywhere, unlike with Surtr who has destroyed the Norse texture in normal history.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

"Nega Saver is clearly talking about Base Kiara not Beast Kiara as it's in Base Kiara's Section"

"Although the scale of the existence of the Pleasure Deva that was born once on the moon is superior to Beast III, they say that she had no choice but to withdraw when faced with a messiah since she did not possess this skill."

Nope.

Regarding Kiara's Np. It's Mindhax, she's literally using her authority to get pleasure from a planet before melting people with that vortex of pleasure.

"Turning into the floodgates of all the desires of humanity, she ushers the souls of people into her body by Code Cast Banshokuyuutai and creates a whirl of billions of pleasure. The whirl of pleasure melts sapient beings and transforms their lives into the sublime in the twinkling of an eye. It is the birth of an ephemeral but eternal Land of Bliss. This whirl of pleasure works on any sapient being without exception, no matter how different the structure of their intelligence is. This is not a noble phantasm limited to the Earth."

Worth noting that she is also using her Banshokuyuutai (Lust Bondage) code cast in the np. Which is works on the soul and mind to further buff the damage.

"It's a codecast used with the aim of performing mental care, however since it has the risky potential to be used to violate a person's human rights, Kiara herself sealed the software away and labeled it as an illicit program.

It invades the cyber brain of its target, and by analyzing brain signals, communication and response to stimulus, the software can freely read the contents of the target's mind and soul."

Her CCC Matrix Entry also goes great lengths to explain that it's mindhax

"The anti-planetary Noble Phantasm of reborn Kiara. The most heinous of Noble Phantasms, which uses the Earth for masturbation. It's an Authority which lets her gain the greatest of sensations and grow by offering her body to and embracing all life left on Earth - humans, animals, plants."

This part is talking about Banshokuyuutai not her literally embracing all of them.

"The nature of this is similar to a certain man-made demon who had once been made into the object of demonization to prove the evil of humanity and turned into a sacrifice. This vortex of pleasure melts all things with sapience, subliming their lives in a brief instant. It's the birth of an ephemeral but eternal Land of Bliss. This vortex of pleasure works on any sapient being without exception, no matter how different the structure of their intelligence is. This is not a Noble Phantasm limited to the Earth. It has a special effect of doing more damage in certain conditions, the damage increasing if it's used on the opposite sex, and the higher the intelligence the greater the damage. The plan on paper would have been for Archer to take the least damage, while Gilgamesh would receive the greatest damage."

This part "As for why its performance, presentation, and sheer scale are so huge, it's because Kiara is a being close to Saver."

Doesn't contradict anything about it being mindhax, as scale refers to what is affected. In this case the scale is indeed huge as she's affecting an entire planet with her Authority. The performance/damage is also huge as it's the pleasure of an entire planet as an attack. It's visually protrayed like that to show what she's affecting, it's not literal.

Scale referring to what is affected has a clear example in Buddha.

"A Bodhisattva is a god of universe scale and power, and can easily manage things on the scale of the Solar System. Buddhism has a sense of scale of the universe that stands out from that of other religions. There are concepts like Nayuta (1060) and "The Infinitely Vast Number" (1068) which were created to represent the scale and size of a Buddha. The entire universe is the domain of a Buddha. A galaxy in Buddhism is sanzensekai, then 1000 of those make up a sanzendaisekai (galaxy cluster), then 1000 of these make up a sanzendaisensekai (super clusters). This actually aligns with the real scale of galaxies, galaxy clusters, and super clusters."

According to your interpretation Buddha would be "universe sized". However he isn't as we clearly see in Last Encore when he's still able to prune all parallel timelines (the timeline tree) with his minor np while he's a normal servant.

Another example of Bodhisattvas' scale referring to what they affect is Suzuka's third Np (the sword of a Bodhisattva) which allows her to recreate and view all parallel worlds (the timeline tree). So unless her Sword has the same scale as the tree of time this isn't working according to your interpretation.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Regarding the visuals of Angra Mainyu/CCC

She's not even being shown to grow into the size in the animation.

It's not even the part that does damage in the np.

When she is about to perform the damage part of the attack the opposing Servant is comparable in size to her. She's not shown to be shrinking before the attack either.

Kiara is somehow physically grabbing the Earth and teleporting it away before shrinking down all in the span of a few frames.

Mats and the ingame description doesn't mention her growing, shrinking. Which they would have if the budget affected it that much as Cursed Cutting Crater got an in depth explanation of what it should have looked like in the mats.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Isnt mentioned =/= didnt happen, we see it happen plain as day

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Yeah because Nameless is totally planetary in size like Kiara. It's in the animation so it has to be true.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Isnt mentioned =/= didnt happen, we see it happen plain as day

I'm guessing that Hakuno + X Servant growing in size is also a thing in your head, while in reality nothing happens.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Honestly Weekly, if you're going to keep posting it would help if you actually bothered to read the relevant material like in LoL or RWBY. It's hard to take anything from you seriously in here when you're practically a Matt lackey here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bold of you to assume i havent with nothing to base your claim off of other than me having a different opinion than you

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Regarding Ea and Gil

Ea and Rhon have never been compared before. The argument that Ea is the strongest np so it should scale above Rhon doesn't work because Ea was never stated to be the strongest.

His CCC matrix uses Úáéþé╣Òü«õ©ÇÒüñ (One of the pinnacle).

Enki (the God Ea) is the deification of the force which built the planet's surface. They are talking about planet building because that force built the planet to make it habitable for other beings.

The sword/staff Ea is the manifestation of the same force as stated in Strange Fake. So logically Ea shouldn't be able to exceed the power of what it's the manifestation of.

Another thing to note is that Enkidu also states that Ea when used by Servant Gil is much weaker than when Living Gil used it.

If it was indeed planet level it would mean that Living Gil>>Servant Gil is>>>The strongest Gods of Mesopotamia. Which is obviously not the case and Gil needed help from Enkidu to kill Gugalanna.

3rd Ascension Gil=/= Living Gil=/= Mythological Mystic Code Gil.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Why would Tiamat scale to Arc's Moondrop? There's no basis to scale Tiamat to Archetype Earth and vice versa as far as I know.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Bold of you to assume i havent with nothing to base your claim off of other than me having a different opinion than you

You kudo Matt and do nothing beyond repeat his points. Not really indicating you have read much beyond Matt's posts.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Living Gilgamesh defeated Kiara, meanwhile Tiamat defeated Enkidu who is pretty much equal to Gil.

Living Gil didn't fight Kiara and he won because Kiara got nerfed. If Gil's master wasn't Hakuno she would have instantly killed him.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

The statement I quoted explains that he created the earth though.

"Ea the stick" is straight-up the representation of that power "to split the Heavens and the Earth".

No it didn't. That statement comes after they said that Enki (Ea the God) is the deification of the force which built the surface. How would Enki create the planet after the planet and the surface was already created? It's obviously talking about Enki being the natural phenomenon which built the surface before the other Gods started building up the surface with other stuff.

You got that wrong as well. Ea is the manifestation of the the same force that Enki is the deification of.

 

[Ramesses_the_Sun_King]

Nonetheless Ea (the God) shaping the world's surface isn't exactly a contradiction of the abundance of planetary statements in regards to Ea (the Weapon).

Yet it was countered by Enkidu's Enuma Elish which was only portrayed as about the size of a country in the SF Manga. And that was at its full power.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yet it was countered by Enkidu's Enuma Elish which was only portrayed as about the size of a country in the SF Manga. And that was at its full power.

Yet in the LN it was repeatedly stated that Enkidu was using the energy of the entire planet, which was used interchangibly with World, of which Ea was repeatedly stated that it would destroy. Primary sources are seen as more valid for feats than secondary sources anyways. My main schtick is that if it isn't a translation error, the language is saying World = The Planet = Earth. I'm fine if this was a mistranslation, I would just like confirmation on that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's not a mistranslation. The intent behind EA couldn't be more obvious.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Enki (the God Ea) is the deification of the force which built the planet's surface. They are talking about planet building because that force built the planet to make it habitable for other beings.

The sword/staff Ea is the manifestation of the same force as stated in Strange Fake. So logically Ea shouldn't be able to exceed the power of what it's the manifestation of.

Or you could deduce Enki was > planetary range in AP due to statements regarding Ea. We aren't given any sort of specifics on how fast the surface formation was or if it took any amount of effort on Enki's part so you couldn't really argue that the statements afterwards are outliers in that regard.