Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?)

[Dargoo_Faust]

Which leads into problems with Ea being 5-A and Servant Gil being gimped by being a Servant and such not being strong enough to pull off 5-A stuff.

Technically it wasn't Servant!Gil that fought her but Living!Gil, after he was sent into the Underworld.

So he should have been able to pull off the 5-A stuff just fine.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Can't Servant Gil still pull off 5-A stuff with Ea?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Can't Servant Gil still pull off 5-A stuff with Ea?

He should, but if Regis' point is that 5-A is gimped by him being a servant he wasn't actually a servant during that fight.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It's Servant Gil, as he introduces himself that way after being killed by Tiamat earlier on.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

It's Servant Gil, as he introduces himself that way after being killed by Tiamat earlier on.

He then proceeds to explain that it was accomplished through them being in the underworld.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Living Gil was Final Ascension gilgamesh. In CCC EoG Gilgamesh with his Mystic Code buff was masterless after gilgamesh regenerated from a celluar level. EoG CCC gilgamesh is Final Ascension Gilgamesh whom fought tiamat in Babylon whom some call "Living Gil." This version of gilgamesh is what fought the 2nd to last form of Tiamat and naturally her final form should be stronger than them.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Not to mention Servant!Gil's version of Ea would have destroyed the planet if Enkidu wasn't countering it with what is quite literally the world's energy.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Tiamat is far above the likes of Ishtar and Quetz, doesn't make the Earth by herself and in general has no proper reasoning in her profile right now. She is completely reliant on scaling."

And... that's a problem?

"Comparing Tiamat to Kiara through Goetia is even more strange when Goetia actually needed extra power and prep to put a massive hole in the Earth and Tiamat vs Goetia without AAS is difficult to figure out."

Massive false equivalence. Goetia needed extra prep to literally convert all of human history into energy so he could travel back in time to the genesis of the planet and remake it into a world without the concept of death.

Not this laughable idea of him needing this prep to burn a hole in the Earth.

 

[RegisNex1232]

He also calls himself a ghost later on, and that it was only possible due to Underworld shenanigans. I very much doubt that it is still Living Gil anymore when he pretty much died earlier.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Goetia's power gathered through burning human history is the same thing that powers AAS, which is the Earth piercing NP compared to millions of Excaliburs. He doesn't use a different source of power for it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Not to mention Servant!Gil's version of Ea would have destroyed the planet if Enkidu wasn't countering it with what is quite literally the world's energy.

I believe there was also a statement after in strange fake that said something like "The world (earth) was destroyed 7 times and recreated 7 times." what is the wiki's stance on that quote?

 

[RegisNex1232]

Not to mention Servant!Gil's version of Ea would have destroyed the planet if Enkidu wasn't countering it with what is quite literally the world's energy.

Again, World in Nasu terms =/= Planet Earth. It refers to realities, like the layers of reality covering the Earth or the domains covered by various gods across the planet during the Age of Gods.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

He also calls himself a ghost later on, and that it was only possible due to Underworld shenanigans. I very much doubt that it is still Living Gil anymore when he pretty much died earlier.

Yeah, where he later describes how the player got to "see him at his peak".

This was a fully-powered Gilgamesh, as he was in life. He's not being summoned by some magecraft user in the modern age.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree 100% with Dargoo here.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

So do i

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Not to mention Servant!Gil's version of Ea would have destroyed the planet if Enkidu wasn't countering it with what is quite literally the world's energy.

Again, World in Nasu terms =/= Planet Earth. It refers to realities, like the layers of reality covering the Earth or the domains covered by various gods across the planet during the Age of Gods.

It was as if the planet itself had come into that location, and funneled a gigantic amount of mana into it. It was enough to delude one into thinking that Gaia, the Counter Force of the planet, was opposing Gilgamesh's power to destroy the World.

In the instant that an attack to destroy Eternity drew near— The planet sang. A gigantic amount of mana gushed forth at Enkidu's feet, and moved to swallow Enuma Elish head-on.

As the King of Heroes had spoken to Ea, so too did Enkidu speak to the massive amount of mana engulfing the Void cracks in space. He spoke directly to the planet. "I am a weapon. Wield me as you please." Instantly, enough mana surged forth to make the earlier flow seem like a mere trickle. Several times more mana geysered from the earth's surface, becoming a cyclone of energy enveloping Enkidu's body. Then, the energy became a titanic lance of light to pierce Heaven and Earth, with the Heroic Spirit as its core.

Riiight.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ooooooooh.

 

[RegisNex1232]

The planet/Gaia providing energy =/= Enuma Elish being 5-A, especially when the Japanese text and translations don't equate World to a planet.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The planet/Gaia providing energy =/= Enuma Elish being 5-A, especially when the Japanese text and translations don't equate World to a planet.

Saying "the planet providing energy" was "countering an attack that would destroy the world" seems abundantly direct to me.

You can pull over a native speaker to go through the original text if you want to be that skeptical.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Ramesses and Lady Ashford both have in different threads. They both clarify that World used by Nasu isn't equated to planet. There is a reason why World is capitalized in translations as it's actually a different term in Japanese (õ©ûþòî, Sekai) from planet.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Still bringing up the False Equivalency of World and Planet?

"Enuma Elish: Star of Creation that Separated Sky and Earth: EX Not exactly the Noble Phantasm name but refers to the sword of separation Ea's full release form. It is considered the planet creating weapon that in the distant past separated the sky and earth. Through compression via alternating inversion a windstorm beyond human understanding faults, dislocating space and time pulverizing the target along with the world."

Remember how this is what Prisma Illya says on the power of Enuma Elish It's literally described as a "planet creating weapon" that pulverizes the target along with the world.

Which is further backed up by Gilgamesh himself, who says that it "literally created the world from nothing" and that he will blast Illya away along with her world.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The planet/Gaia providing energy =/= Enuma Elish being 5-A, especially when the Japanese text and translations don't equate World to a planet.

"World doesn't mean the same thing as a planet!!!"

"Okay, but it says planet here."

"The translation is wrong and it actually means world!!!"

Moving the goalpoast much?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ramesses and Lady Ashford both have in different threads. They both clarify that World used by Nasu isn't equated to planet. There is a reason why World is capitalized in translations as it's actually a different term in Japanese (õ©ûþòî, Sekai) from planet.

Neither Strangefake nor Fate/Grand Order (Correction: FGO has Nasu on the writing team, although he is not the only member of it) were written by Nasu from what I'm aware of. They had some supervision, naturally, but it's different authors. Nonetheless, it's used almost interchangeably with "Planet" and "Earth" in that passage.

They can come and correct me here regardless.

 

[RegisNex1232]

http://forums.nrvnqsr.com/showthrea...Spoilers-Thread/page259?p=1159532#post1159532

From Extra CCC

"Enuma Elish

Star of Creation that Separated Heaven and Earth

The final Noble Phantasm of Gilgamesh which shows the dawn of creation ― the beginning of everything. A cut through the fabric of space by Ea the Sword of Separation, a sword crowned with the name of a god in Mesopotamian mythology.

The god Ea is considered to be a pseudo-deification of the power of the planet by which primordial Earth's surface, covered by magma ocean and gas, was moved, crushed, and stabilized.

Many gods began the building of nations after primordial Earth became habitable by life, but Ea was one involved in the building of the planet before that."

Ea the weapon =/= Ea the god who only manipulated the planet's surface to make it habitable. Going by that it's hardly 5-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"The god Ea is considered to be a pseudo-deification of the power of the planet by which primordial Earth's surface, covered by magma ocean and gas, was moved, crushed, and stabilized."

I... don't see what this proves? It's literally just mentioning the actual god Ea of Mesopotamian mythology.

Like, what is your point?

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Ea was one involved in the building of the planet before that."

That's quite literally just proof of it being planetary, not sure what your angle is with that one.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Really, you think Nasu wouldn't correct people about this stuff, especially when he clarified it in Camelot and Garden of Avalon?

I've contacted them already, but they might be sleeping. So better to wait for them.

 

[JBennett]

Worlds can mean many things within Fate, the Common Sense of Mankind is concidered a world but that is simply a layer of Texure that Gaia created just as the Reverse Side of the World is also consicered a sperate World despite being on the same planat of the Common Sense of Mankind.

There's also the different Reality Marbles that are the inner worlds of the user, all in all I don't think World always = Planet unless it's specifies.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Why are you treating what fans on other forums say as law?

World obviously means planet when they talk about destroying the world in plenty of Noble Phantasms.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Because fan translators who have taken their time to do this for non Japanese literate fans is how we have all of this text for rating Nasu characters? And that this is a translation by one of them? This is rich coming from the guy who's not interested in even considering the language to make his own ratings.

 

[RegisNex1232]

"Ea was one involved in the building of the planet before that."

That's quite literally just proof of it being planetary, not sure what your angle is with that one.

Ea made the planet habitable by manipulating the surface of tge Earth. How is that a strong case for 5-A Ea the stick which is just a representative for him?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You are literally appealing to authority, saying that your twisted misrepresented interpretation of another fan's interpretation is the factual law.

Also

"Really, you think Nasu wouldn't correct people about this stuff, especially when he clarified it in Camelot and Garden of Avalon?"

Do you think Nasu cares about the specific wording of like, one line as if he's trying to be fully consistent with himself and wants stuff changed if it's even slightly contradictory?

 

[JBennett]

How is that Headconon? Sherlock explains in FGO, forgot when it was though, that the Human world is a Texure that raps around the planet and is above the Reverse Side of the World.

IF World = Planet then explain how are Reality Marble clasify as Planets? Because it has been shown multiple of time that Ea can easily destroy Reality Marbles, and they are clasified as Worlds.. Gil vs Alex in Fate/zero is a perfect example.

Oh I though it was meant to me, my bad.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And? Each phase / layer of the world is still planet sized. Have you never seen realities stacked inside each other?

 

[RegisNex1232]

Maybe try to correct your own misunderstandings before accusing others first. Especially when you are not that well versed in this subject unlike Ram or Reppuzan or the multiple Beast's Lair translators who let us read Strange Fake/GO/Apocrypha and so on.

When he specifies it a number of times in different works, then yeah he most likely cares. He explains it in Garden of Avalon to explain what Rhon and other world pillars pin down on Earth, in Lostbelts to explain what is happening to the World after the Crypters invasion and in Camelot to again explain what Rhon is.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I've already posted my evidence on the matter; if the issue is translation then there isn't much other to do than to wait for knowledgable members of the verse who are native speakers to throw their hat into the ring.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Ea made the planet habitable by manipulating the surface of tge Earth. How is that a strong case for 5-A Ea the stick which is just a representative for him?

The statement I quoted explains that he created the earth though.

"Ea the stick" is straight-up the representation of that power "to split the Heavens and the Earth".

 

[AguilaR101]

Aren't reality marbles just pocket realities, i'm pretty sure busting one of those warrants a rating if we knew its size and Ea is explicitly shown being able to bust one.

And go figure, iskandars ionais hetaior (botched that) is shown to be large enough to contain a su which might actually be an outlier for Fate/Zero gil but this most certainly substantiates Ea's hype.

 

[RegisNex1232]

He didn't, is the point. That statement doesn't clarify that part beyond "Ea existed while the Earth was a burning hunk of rock and made it habitable". And so far Nasu hasn't clarified on how exactly the Earth was formed beyond small snippets like this.

 

[RegisNex1232]

It's the outward expression of one's mental, inner World. Like Shirou and UBW or Iskander with IH or Kingprotea with her NP.

[1]

A diagram on how it works.