• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Revising Tiamat (and possibly others?)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Which is why I thought it was more of a Hax then pure destruction since it's stated that it "tears a whole in reality and the rest crumbles apart as a result".
 
There's both a damage and a hax component to Ea, but only the hax part is really involved in the reality tearing stuff. Either way, there's not much suggesting that Gil can one up Surtr, who is a bigger deal than him in the general power hierarchy.
 
After rereading the chapter, there's seems to be a good couple of minutes between when Ea was active and when Ekidu activated his Enuma and snowfield was still fine with no damage happenning, though Ea was still felt.

I honestly don't doubt Ea can Destroy the Human World but it seems to take a while before it would be fully destroyed and it's not through pure destructive methods since even the sky gets destroyed, as far as I'm aware of you can't physically destroy the sky though I could be wrong
 
Just a thought, but didn't Tiamat shrug off Enkidu's Enuma Elish? I know it was Kingu that used the NP, but it's still used with Enkidu's original body; which makes it the actual NP as opposed to something summoned. Add that onto the fact that Tiamat was classified as a threat to the world and thus should be supported by the will of the planet just as much as when the same NP was used to nullify Gil's full power Enuma Elish in Strange Fake... Isn't that grounds for something?
 
Beasts are more of a threat to Mankind rather then the World, plus that would still need to scale to Gil's Ea since Enkidu only scales to Gil and doesn't have a feat of his own.
 
From what I can tell, the situation's like this:

1. Tiamat is 5-B at minimum due to being an Earth Mother Goddess, but scales to Kiara, who is currently 5-A.

2. Kiara's Large Planet-level AP is put into question based on the argument that her NP is mindhax-based. This is currently unresolved and makes up most of the thread's debate.

- Arguments against Large Planet AP claim that due to Kiara's NP being mindhax-based, the NP animation is meant to represent her scale of influence over the Earth as opposed to her actually growing to that physical size.

- Arguments in support of Large Planet AP claim that there is no evidence to support the idea that the size growth is not literal, and that that is reason enough to consider it valid despite there being no other physical feats of AP on that level.


Personally, I find the arguments against Large Planet AP to make more sense, but as I'm only passingly knowledgeable about the Extra series I won't make any more contributions to the topic. I'm fine either way.

That being said, I do prefer that people stop getting heated over the debate. Make your points, support with sources, avoid throwing out inferences unless there is no other way to break the stalemate, and for goodness' sake, stay on-topic. The last thing this thread needs is more derailing.
 
First of all, Kiara has all the cheat skills of the Sakura Five. This was confirmed by FGO Materials 5. This includes Kingpotea's Grow Up Grow.

Secondly, Angra Mainyu/CCC is an Anti-Planet Noble Phantasm.

Thirdly, her growing the size of a planet is not a baseless illusion. Her np literally uses the concept of Earth for self pleasure, that's no different than Ishtar firing the concept of Venus at her opponent, giving her a Low 5-B NP.

Tiamat is not stronger than Kiara. Beasts get stronger the later in human history they appear. Tiamat is the weakest beast so far because she manifested at the dawn of human history while Kiara is the strongest because she became a beast in the 2030s,
 
I trust Sera's sense of judgement.
 
Cheat skills never used due to interference from BB and some of the Sakura Five, or said to be part of her NP unlike Kingprotea, who makes a RM to get big and is actually said to grow big unlike Kiara.

Anti-Planet denotes the target/what the NP effects. It has no say in AP, given that several buff type NPs have various designations and not all Anti-X NPs do damage. Again, you'd have to show how a mental hax attack somehow deals planetbusting damage.

Ishtar's concept got debunked a while ago when no one could show it being Planet level without equating concept to GBE, a nonsensical assumption. So I guess the same applies here as well.

Kiara is stronger for reasons unrelated to date of formation/birth. Kiara by most rights wouldn't be able to hurt Tiamat given that she too was born from the Earth.
 
Ok, then how about the fact that Demon Bodhisattva Kiara was the one stated to be on the level of Saver and not Beast III/R?

From Fate/Extra Marerial:

ÒéóÒâ│Òâ¬Òâ×Ò⪴╝Å´╝ú´╝ú´╝úÒÇéÕñëþöƒÒü©ÒéôÒüÿÒéçÒüå ÒüùÒüƒÒé¡ÒéóÒâ®Òü«Õ»¥µÿƒÕ«ØÕàÀÒÇéÕ£░þÉâÒüºÞ笵à░Þíîþé║Òü½ÒüÁÒüæÒéïµ£Çõ¢Äµ£Çµé¬Òü«Õ«ØÕàÀÒÇéÕ£░þÉâÒü½µ«ïÒüúÒüƒÒüéÒéëÒéåÒéïþöƒÒüìþë®ÔöÇÔöÇÔöÇõ║║ÚûôÒÇüÕïòþë®ÒÇüµñìþë®Òü½Þç¬ÕêåÒü«õ¢ôÒéƵìºÒüÆÒÇüÒüôÒéîÒéÆÕÅùÒüæÕàÑÒéîÒéïõ║ïÒüºµ£ÇÕñºÒü«Õ«ÿÞâ¢ÒéÆõ╝ÜÕ¥ùÒüùÒÇüµêÉÚòÀÒüÖÒéﵿ®Þâ¢ÒÇéÒüØÒü«Õ£¿Òéèµû╣Òü»ÒÇüÒüïÒüñÒüªõ║║ÚûôÒü«µé¬µÇºÒéÆÞ¿╝µÿÄÒüÖÒéüÒüƒÒéüÒü½µé¬Ú¡öÒü¿þ¢ÁÒéëÒéîÒÇüþöƒÒüæÞ┤àÒü½þÑ¡Òéèõ©èÒüÆÒéëÒéîÒüƒÒüéÒéïõ║║ÕÀÑÚ¡öÒü½Úí×õ╝╝ÒüÖÒéïÒÇéÒüôÒü«Õ┐½µÑ¢Òü«µ©ªÒü»þƒÑµÇºÒüéÒéïÒééÒü«ÒéÆÞ×ìÒüïÒüùÒÇüÒüØÒü«『õ║║þöƒ』ÒéÆõ©Çþ×¼ÒüºµÿçÞÅ»ÒüòÒüøÒéïÒÇéÒéÅÒüÜÒüïõ©Çþ×¼Òü«ÒÇüÒüùÒüïÒüùµ░©ÚüáÒü«µÑÁµÑ¢µÁäÕ£ƒÒü«Þ¬òþöƒÒüºÒüéÒéïÒÇéÒüôÒü«Õ┐½µÑ¢Òü«µ©ªÒü»Òü®ÒéîÒü╗Òü®þƒÑµÇºµºïÚÇáÒüîþò░Òü¬ÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéêÒüåÒü¿ÒÇüþƒÑµÇºÒüéÒéïÒééÒü«Òü½Òü»õ¥ïÕñûÒü¬ÒüÅõ¢£þö¿ÒüÖÒéïÒÇéÕ£░þÉâÚÖÉÕ«ÜÒü«Õ«ØÕàÀÒüºÒü»Òü¬ÒüäÒÇéµØíõ╗ÂÒü½ÒéêÒüúÒüªÒâÇÒâíÒâ╝Ò驵ò░ÕÇñÒü»ÕÉæÒü¿ÒüùÒÇüþò░µÇºÒüºÒüéÒéïÒü¬ÒéëÒâÇÒâíÒâ╝Òé©ÕóùÕèáÒÇüþƒÑµÇºÒüîÚ½ÿÒüäÒü╗Òü®ÒâÇÒâíÒâ╝Òé©ÕóùÕèáÒÇüÒü¿ÒüäÒüåþë╣µÇºÒéƵîüÒüúÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇéÞ¿¡Õ«Üõ©èÒü«Þ®▒Òü¬ÒéëÒÇüÒééÒüúÒü¿ÒééÒâÇÒâíÒâ╝Òé©Òüîõ¢ÄÒüäÒü«Òü»ÒéóÒâ╝ÒâüÒâúÒâ╝ÒÇüÚÇåÒü½µ£ÇÚ½ÿÒâÇÒâíÒâ╝Òé©ÒéÆÕÅùÒüæÒéïÒü«ÒüîÒé«Òâ½Òé¼ÒâíÒââÒéÀÒâÑÒü«õ║êÕ«ÜÒüáÒüúÒüƒÒÇéµÇºÞâ¢ÒÇüµ╝öÕç║ÒÇüÒü¿ÒééÒü½Òé╣Òé▒Òâ╝Òâ½ÒüîÕñºÒüìÒüäÒü«Òü»Òé¡ÒéóÒâ®ÒüîÒé╗ÒéñÒâ┤ÒéíÒâ╝Òü«ÒéÁÒâ╝Òâ┤ÒéíÒâ│ÒâêÒü½Þ┐æÒüäÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüáÒüïÒéëÒÇéÞíåþöƒ´╝êþöƒÒüìÒü¿ÒüùþöƒÒüæÒéïÒééÒü«）ÒéƵòæÒüåÒüƒÒéüÒü½ÕÑöÞÁ░ÒüÖÒéïõ║║ÒéÆÒüèÒüùÒü¬Òü╣ÒüªÞÅ®Þû®Òü¿Õæ╝Òü│ÒÇüÒü¥ÒüƒÒÇüÞºúÞä▒ÒüùÒüªõ╗ÅÒü½Òü¬ÒüúÒüƒÒééÒü«ÒééÞÅ®Þû®ÒüºÒüéÒéïÒÇéÒüØÒüùÒüªÞÅ®Þû®Òü¿Òü»Õ«çÕ«ÖÒâ¼ÒâÖÒâ½Òü« Õ¡ÿÕ£¿ÞªÅµ¿íÒé╣Òé▒Òâ╝Òâ½ ÒéƵîüÒüñ Õñ®ÒüïÒü┐ ÒüºÒüéÒéèÒÇüÕñ¬ÚÖ¢þ│╗ÒüÉÒéëÒüäÒü»Þ╗¢ÒüÅþ«íþÉåÒüùÒüªÒüäÒéïÒÇéõ╗ŵòÖÒü«õ©ûþòîÞª│Òü«Õ║âÕñºÒüòÒü»õ╗ûÒü«Õ«ùµòÖÒü¿Òü»Òâ¼ÒâÖÒâ½ÒüîÚüòÒüåÒÇéÒâèÒâªÒé┐ÒüáÒü«þäíÚçÅÕñºµò░Òü¿ÒüäÒüúÒüƒµò░Òü«µªéÕ┐ÁÒüîÒüéÒéïÒü«Òü»ÒÇüÒü▓Òü¿ÒüêÒü½õ╗ÅÒü«ÕñºÒüìÒüòÒéÆþñ║ÒüÖÒüƒÒéüÒü½õ¢£ÒéëÒéîÒüƒþë®ÒüáÒÇéõ╗ŵòÖÒü½ÒüèÒüäÒüªÕ«çÕ«ÖÒü»õ╗ÅÒü«Õø¢ÒüºÒüéÒéèÒÇüÒüØÒü«Õ║âÒüòÒééõ©ëÕìâÕñºÕìâõ©ûþòîÒü¿Õæ╝Òü░ÒéîÒéïÒÇéÚèǵ▓│þ│╗Òüîõ©ëÕìâõ©ûþòîÒÇüÒüØÒéîÒüîÕìâÒüéÒüñÒü¥ÒüúÒüƒÒééÒü«Òüîõ©ëÕìâÕñºõ©ûþòîÒÇüÒüòÒéëÒü½ÒüØÒéîÒüîÕìâÒüéÒüñÒü¥ÒüúÒüƒÒééÒü«Òüîõ©ëÕìâÕñºÕìâõ©ûþòîÒÇéÒü¥ÒüòÒü½Úèǵ▓│ÒÇüÚèǵ▓│ÕøúÒÇüÞÂàÚèǵ▓│ÕøúÒü«Õ░║Õ║ªÒü¿Þ¿ÇÒüêÒéïÒÇéõ║îÕìâÕ╣┤õ╗Ñõ©èÒééÕëìÒüïÒéëÒüôÒü«ÞºúÚçêÒéƵîüÒüúÒüªÒéïÒüúÒüªÒÇüÒéñÒâ│ÒâëÒü®ÒéôÒüáÒüæÒâ╝ÒÇéÚûïþÖ║Õêص£ƒÒÇüÒÇîÒâ®Òé╣Òâ£Òé╣Òü½Òü»ÒüôÒüåÒüäÒüåõ║ïÒéÆÒéäÒéëÒüøÒüƒÒüäÒüºÒüÖÒÇìÒü¿Õ¡ùÒé│Òâ│ÒâåÒéÆõ¢£ÒéèÒü»ÒüùÒüƒÒééÒü«Òü«ÒÇüÒé╗Òâ¡þÜäÒü½ÚÇÜÒéïÒü»ÒüÜÒüîÒü¬ÒüäÒÇüÒü¿Þ½ªÒéüÒüªÒüäÒüƒÒéëÒüéÒüúÒüòÒéèÚÇÜÒüúÒüªÒüùÒü¥ÒüúÒüƒÒÇéÒü¬ÒéôÒüºÒüôÒéîÒüîÚÇÜÒüúÒüƒÒü«ÒüïÒü»ÒüäÒü¥õ╗ÑÒüªÞ¼ÄÒüºÒüéÒéïÒÇé

"All the World's Desire [Noble Phantasm] Angra Mainyu/CCC. This is the anti-planetary Noble Phantasm Kiara gains after her reincarnation. Angra Mainyu is the most self-serving heinous Noble Phantasm of them all where Kiara uses the world to **********. Kiara offers her body in a sexual manner to all living things on Earth, including humans, animals, and plants. By completely accepting all people as is she gains the greatest possible mastery over their senses and carnality. This Noble Phantasm is derided for being demonic and it's similar to the living sacrifices used for certain artificial magic ceremonies used the past in order to prove the evil of humans. It is a vortex of pleasure that melts all sentient beings, and digests their "life" in an instant. While in reality it all happens in an instant, but it feels like an eternity of pleasure. Regardless of how different the structure of a beings intelligence may be, this vortex affects all without exception. It is not a Noble Phantasm that is limited to affect only those on Earth. The damage increases if certain conditions are met. If the target is of the opposite sex, the damage increases. The more intelligent a being is, the more damage it does. As far as the setting and lore are concerned, the Servant who would be hit with the least damage would be Archer, and Gilgamesh would be damaged the most. The reason why this attack's power, visuals, and scale are so huge is because reincarnated Kiara is a being similar to Saver. People who devote their life to bringing salvation to Sattvas (living things) are referred to as Bodhisattvas. People who have attained moksha (libertation/release) and become Buddhas are also Bodhisattvas. A Bodhisattva is a god of universe scale and power, and can easily manage things on the scale of the Solar System. Buddhism has a sense of scale of the universe that stands out from that of other religions. There are concepts like Nayuta (10^60) and "The Infinitely Vast Number" (10^68) which were created to represent the scale and size of a Buddha. The entire universe is the domain of a Buddha. In Buddhism the universe in considered to be made up of three billion solar systems (a great trichiliocosm). A galaxy comprises of 3000 solar systems (a small trichiliocosm), and 1000 small trichiliocosms make up a trichiliocosm. This actually aligns with the real scale of galaxies, galaxy clusters, and super clusters. India had this stuff figured out over 2000 years ago? Holy crap! In the initial design phase of the game I submitted some paperwork describing this Noble Phantasm. I thought there would be no way that this gets by CERO untouched, but surprisingly enough it did. I still have no idea how this was able to make it past them."
 
Ok, and? No one is questioning Kiara's power as compared to Saver at full power, but Tiamat as she stands right now does not have good reasons in her profile to be 5-A, given that it is reliant on confusing scaling chains and scaling to far lower characters. Should this not be fixed?
 
A downgrade from 5-A to 5-B is fine, although it depends on which version of Gilgamesh/Enkidu you want to use to scale her from. Gilgamesh was at full power when he joined the MC to take down Tiamat (after King Hassan did his thing), evidenced by the appearance he assumed.
 
Veloxt1r0kore said:
How about Goetia btw?
Click to expand...
Goetia has his own feats and such he doesn't need to scale to anyone. He might need to be checked up just to make sure his profile is accurate, but that would be after Tiamat is fixed.
 
Sera EX said:
A downgrade from 5-A to 5-B is fine, although it depends on which version of Gilgamesh/Enkidu you want to use to scale her from. Gilgamesh was at full power when he joined the MC to take down Tiamat (after King Hassan did his thing), evidenced by the appearance he assumed.
Click to expand...
Ea's AP is being discussed on Discord between Dargoo and I, though it does need more opinions.
 
I'm pretty sure EA's ap is fine as is besides maybe the justification based on finishing tiamat if she ends up downgraded
 
Regis is still saying that Kiara is never stated to actually grow and that even Anti-Planet NPs can't be Planet level.

At this point I'm questioning the legitimacy.

In any case, Sewa is correct. 5-B is totally fine.
 
Again, you have yet to show proof that she does grow, apart from an animation where the Ally Servamt is also similar to her in size. Her growth is also not what is dealing said damage, unlike Kingprotea, who has to make a Reality Marble to grow big enough to crush people.

Yes, have you never heard of hax abilities? That don't really deal damage APwise?

Only if there is sufficient proof since this wiki does need that.
 
I mean even her weaker alter ego in fgo grows large enough to be in the center of the solar system and dwarf the planets
 
I have literally given statements that confirm her size and scale as a result of her nature and that the attack does have physical properties to say nothing of the stuff which Sera has brought up. And yet you still conflate a lack of statements (Not even true in this case) with a negative statement.

At this point I wonder if you're even trying to be intellectually honest with Nasu threads.
 
Her scale is what is big, not her size, which you haven't proven at all. This is confirmed by Ramesses's quotes supporting this and not the size argument. A lack of statements (in this case the truth) is not supporting your side, so I fail to see how you have an argument to stand on.

This is quite rich, coming from the guy who made 5-B Ishtar off equating concepts to AP and ignoring any comments suggesting otherwise until the CRT made by Qlipoth.
 
Scale = Size my dude, do you not know the definition.

Ramesses is a literal user dude. He's not Word of God from the Nasuverse. And don't you try to discredit my merit by bringing up Ishtar stuff.
 
@Matthew, Scale of Influence =/= Physical Size. Scale of Influence is what ranks Kiara and Saver at full power as Solar System level beings as they have enough power to control/affect our Solar System.

Ramesses is someone, unlike you, who has gone and brought up sources from Nasu regarding his points like Sera has. He has also beem accurate enough, unlike you, to be considered an expert in this verse. By what reasons should we take your words over his or Qlipoth's or Repp's or Prom's?

Discredit you? You did that to yourself with Ishtar, I just pointed out the problems highlighted later in the CRT that were ignored at the time.


@Sera, Kiara would be discussed after Tiamat. Firstly Tiamat needs to be fixed.
 
Tiamat in terms of raw power is stated to be powerful enough to fight Aliens and easily beat full power Babylonia Quetz. The Lion King also stated that Tiamat is stronger than Goetia.

Kiara stated that Goetia was much stronger than her in raw power as her shtick is mental and soul hax.

"See, didn't I tell you? Everything's been in the palm of my hand from the start.

Err, Demon God King Goetia…-san, was it? Yes, Goetia was certainly a Beast possessing great power.

But that was only in terms of "strength". He was a Beast who could only destroy.

My power is weak and still immature as a Beast, but human consciousness is quite fickle and fragile—

No matter what kind of intelligent lifeform they are, beings with wisdom always possess "desire", and my fingers can grasp their souls.

—Any being that possesses desire cannot match me. Now then—

I shall devour you now, Gudao-san. Ah, how young and juicy—"
 
@Ram, exactly which chapters mentioned this? I remember the Quetz one vaguely enough to find it, but what about the rest? I think it would make decent statements to link to in the profile.

Goetia > Kiara is in her voice lines or in Seraphix?
 
Just to explain the situation, Regis and I have been discussing feats and cosmology and we're still not at any real conclusion with Ea, although we've come to an agreement that World =/= planet.

We've agreed that Ea is pretty much just hax, and determining AP constitutes finding out its highest range.

We're still discussing how "destroying the World" as it was stated in strangefake would require Ea to kill every person on the planet, which would need to give it a range that covers the surface of the planet assuming it doesn't do this over time.

That said, Regis claims that strangefake is not indicitive of Ea as it was presented in stay night and Zero, and that much of the narration coming from the masters themselves muddies the statements, although there is still narration that supports it destroying the World.

At this point it's more looking for statements and feats outside of strangefake for consistency.
 
@Regis Chapter 18. We get another statement from Ushi that only Goetia's Band of Light can match Tiamat's might on top of the fact that Quetz can't beat Tiamat even with the help of all the remaining divinities in Mesopotamia.

Goetia being>>>Kiara comes from Seraphix.
 
@Dargoo, Ea still clashed with Excalibur in Fate route of Fate/Stay Night, so there is an AP component to it. The hax part regarding World destruction would need a separate rating.

Strange Fake doesn't say that, it was simply a suggestion on how such a World would be destroyed. You could always go for more direct methods like Ea or Loptr Laegjarn. That being said, Ea's range being planetary is something to be discussed.

Strange Fake, like a lot of Fate works uses a lot of prose in both character POV scenes and third person scenes. So I would prefer hard statements from Materials and such rather than what could be mistaken for bragging for example.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

TyphonEX
  • Locked
Fate/Extra CCC p&a cleanup (Part 1?)
2
Replies
57
Views
5K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Fezzih_007
Fate profiles Revamp Part 1 Subject: Miyamoto Musashi
Replies
39
Views
2K
Fezzih_007
Fezzih_007
  • Locked
Nasuverse Multiverse and Throne of Heroes
Replies
7
Views
2K
Huesito88
Huesito88
Floxiaaa
Fate character tier adjustment
2
Replies
56
Views
4K
Floxiaaa
Floxiaaa
Wankbreaker
(Nasuverse) 1/Removal of Tier 1 for Fate/Extra..
2
Replies
41
Views
7K
Wankbreaker
Wankbreaker
Back
Top