Removal of the Naruto Retsuden laser justification

[Rocker1189]

Then why was it stated that falling debris would kill Naruto if he's physically as strong as usual?

It honestly shouldnt mater regardless since we do in fact have him dodging a few of those lasers as pointed out above.

 

[Qawsedf234]

This is not a problem, it's literally what happened.

I think the lowest general assumption from the scene was him tilting his upper body at a downward-directional angle.

an't we just upscale the characters to FTL and finish this?

Yeah. Like I mentioned in the list we can just pick who to upscale and finish it.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I think the lowest general assumption from the scene was him tilting his upper body at a downward-directional angle.

That's what I calculated.

Yeah. Like I mentioned in the list we can just pick who to upscale and finish it.

I meant to upscale all characters that scale to that feat. Thing is closer to baseline, casual feat, etc.

 

[USklaverei]

This is not a problem, it's literally what happened. Naruto didn't move his head to dodge the beam, not only that. He also moved his body to do that. And this is already a lowball, considering I used the distance between Madara and Naruto, and not the distance between Naruto and the beam.

But that's not what I'm talking about, the calculation considers that he did all the 55 degree movement before the laser crossed the distance between Madara's mouth and Naruto's face, but he doesn't need to make a big move for that and since we cannot see how much he moved in relation to the beam, the right thing would be to find the minimum movement for him to avoid the beam.

 

[Purgy]

It honestly shouldnt mater regardless since we do in fact have him dodging a few of those lasers as pointed out above.

Which seem like outliers or misinterpretations.

It's stated that he's been reduced to a general humans level of combat power and it's also stated that falling debris could kill him, that seems a lot more consistent to me than Base Naruto with no chakra dodging light.

So unless you're willing to argue that Konoha no named fodder are FTL, I don't see how you can genuinely believe this.

As for light fang and upscaling to FTL, I see no problem with it.

 

[Rocker1189]

Yeah. Like I mentioned in the list we can just pick who to upscale and finish it.

Only Jigen with karma and Isshiki should upscale currently, Code would just scale above Delta due to being her superior as stated.

 

[Loyd]

if we really want to go deep with the anime maybe naruto was able to dodge because he saw madara puff his cheeks before light fang jk plz don't quote me

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

It's stated that he's been reduced to a general humans level of combat power

This was only a rumor perpetrated by the public, who have no idea what they're talking about.
He also shattered a meteor, which I doubt "the general populace" can replicate.

 

[Rocker1189]

Which seem like outliers or misinterpretations.

Its not a misinterpretation. As pointed out above by M3X.

It's stated that he's been reduced to a general humans level of combat power and it's also stated that falling debris could kill him, that seems a lot more consistent to me than Base Naruto with no chakra dodging light.

So unless you're willing to argue that Konoha no named fodder are FTL, I don't see how you can genuinely believe this.

Naruto isnt a no name fodder though, and said things about him being weakened to human levels was something the general populace thought, which is obviously not the case. Maybe he was weakened enough to be killed by boulders but clearly some of his superhumaness was retained.

 

[M3X_2.0]

But that's not what I'm talking about, the calculation considers that he did all the 55 degree movement before the laser crossed the distance between Madara's mouth and Naruto's face, but he doesn't need to make a big move for that and since we cannot see how much he moved in relation to the beam, the right thing would be to find the minimum movement for him to avoid the beam.

Before? If it were before, there would be no speed involved. It is during. If we take the anime and see what happened, Naruto only dodged the laser when he was about to cut his staff. The minimum distance to deflect the laser would be half of Naruto's face, but why use the minimum, if that's not what happened?

 

[Qawsedf234]

But that's not what I'm talking about, the calculation considers that he did all the 55 degree movement before the laser crossed the distance between Madara's mouth and Naruto's face, but he doesn't need to make a big move for that and since we cannot see how much he moved in relation to the beam, the right thing would be to find the minimum movement for him to avoid the beam.

Even with just the head movement you're talking about Naruto moving a decent distance before the beam went from Madara to his old location

 

[GTsek]

Is there any justification for Isshiki scales above war Naruto Rikudō's feat? Wasn't there a quote from Kishimoto that Naruto and Sasuke would be downgraded in the new era?

Does anyone have any justification or proof that Isshiki is faster than Kaguya, Madara? or Naruto Rikudō of war and Sasuke Rinnegan of war?

 

[Purgy]

Its not a misinterpretation. As pointed out above by M3X.

Naruto isnt a no name fodder though, and said things about him being weakened to human levels was something the general populace thought, which is obviously not the case. Maybe he was weakened enough to be killed by boulders but clearly soe of his superhumaness was retained.

Can you link the post please? I can't find it.

It's stated that his power was reduced to a no named fodder, even if it's a rumor, it's supported by the fact that falling debris is stated to be able to kill him, so it's clearly true.

Also, why are we acting like Naruto being unable to use chakra wouldn't massively affect his speed? Naruto characters get speed boosts alonside chakra boosts and even in the Haku thread, several people were arguing Haku's speed would be reduced due to having low chakra.

Regardless, Kaguya's profile literally lists her getting exponentially stronger via gaining an exponential amount of chakra, the same would be true in reverse for Naruto, getting exponentially slower due to being unable to use chakra.

 

[USklaverei]

Before? If it were before, there would be no speed involved. It is during. If we take the anime and see what happened, Naruto only dodged the laser when he was about to cut his staff. The minimum distance to deflect the laser would be half of Naruto's face, but why use the minimum, if that's not what happened?

Obviously it is during, but your calculation uses the distance between Madara's mouth and Naruto's face, I don't understand why you are using the anime where the prey comes close to the stick, and you didn't even use it in your calculation.
But as I said, Naruto doesn't need a 55 degree movement to avoid this.

We know that Naruto avoided this by moving his entire torso (0.83 meters) to the right, that is, a 20 degree movement would be more than enough for him to avoid this before the thing hit his head, since the beam was super thin ( 20 degrees being a high ball).
In the calculation you consider 55 degrees being that this was all the movement of Naruto after the prey passed him and Madara still move to try to cut his neck.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I meant to upscale all characters that scale to that feat. Thing is closer to baseline, casual feat, etc.

@Qawsedf234 What do you think?

 

[Qawsedf234]

@Qawsedf234 What do you think?

If the high end is what is being used then I can see Baryon Mode and maybe Kaguya upscaling to FTL.

If its the 55% end then Baryon Mode could probably get a "possibly" rating strapped onto it.

 

[USklaverei]

Even with just the head movement you're talking about Naruto moving a decent distance before the beam went from Madara to his old location

Yes, even if we use the anime, you cannot say how much Naruto has moved compared to the prey, so we must consider enough that he will get out of crosshair of the prey.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yes, even if we use the anime, you cannot say how much Naruto has moved compared to the prey, so we must consider enough that he will get out of crosshair of the prey.

I get that perspective is a bit off, but Naruto moved before the beam went from just outside the staff to Naruto's face.

 

[M3X_2.0]

If the high end is what is being used then I can see Baryon Mode and maybe Kaguya upscaling to FTL.

The pixelscaling for the method 1 is wrong as ****, the method 2 was suggested by @AlexSoloVaAlFuturo when he was a CGM. Kaguya, yeah. What aboout Jigen and Isshiki? Both of them trashed on Naruto and Sasuke together. He even vanished from Naruto's eye and Sasuke's Dojutsus.

 

[Damage3245]

The pixelscaling for Method 1 should probably be redone, so we can evaluate both properly.

Also, I made a note here which is that the calced feat as a whole is the Reaction speed, not just the calced timeframe.

 

[USklaverei]

I get that perspective is a bit off, but Naruto moved before the beam went from just outside the staff to Naruto's face.

Yes yes, if we can use the anime, it will be better.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, I made a note here which is that the calced feat as a whole is the Reaction speed, not just the calced timeframe.

Yeah, I commented about it before you did.

 

[KLOL506]

I get that perspective is a bit off, but Naruto moved before the beam went from just outside the staff to Naruto's face.

I can attest to this, Naruto starts ducking after the beam smacks his staff, before it does Naruto just moves his head upwards a tiny bit if you go frame-by-frame, but the actual ducking happens much later, where we see his head bends downwards.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I'm not recalculating Method 1. Shouldn't even be used, we can't know for sure where Naruto was before the beam.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm not recalculating Method 1. Shouldn't even be used, we can't know for sure where Naruto was before the beam.

I agree, Method 1 is more or less botched since the manga panels there where Naruto ducks are skewed to oblivion and at an incredibly-severe angle. Best option is to take the anime for the movement part, which more or less shows the feat in a similar fashion. Since Method 2 was advised by Alex, I believe that's the step we should take.

As for the distance between Madara's mouth and Naruto's face, you can just use the manga panel after you adjust it to line up to Madara's heel.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Is there any justification for Isshiki scales above war Naruto Rikudō's feat? Wasn't there a quote from Kishimoto that Naruto and Sasuke would be downgraded in the new era?

where does this come from?

 

[M3X_2.0]

Done, went down to 66% of light. Those that would upscale can get a "likely higher" now.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Are we good now? I fixed the calc with KLOL's suggestions.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I hate to be the skunk at the garden party, but.......

Actually, we kinda stopped scaling New Era characters to Part II God tiers, so idk how that would affect this scaling. We didn't have to worry about it before since they had their own feats to scale to.

 

[USklaverei]

He continues to have the same problem of considering a movement much larger than he really needed.

 

[M3X_2.0]

When I made the suggestion to create the thread - and the thread itself - I said it was just about Momoshiki being above Kaguya, based on baseless statements. It had nothing to do with speed. There is no reason to assume that Naruto or Sasuke have become slower.

 

[M3X_2.0]

He continues to have the same problem of considering a movement much larger than he really needed.

I'm still waiting you to prove the movement is higher than what is should be.

 

[GTsek]

Can you link the post please? I can't find it.

It's stated that his power was reduced to a no named fodder, even if it's a rumor, it's supported by the fact that falling debris is stated to be able to kill him, so it's clearly true.

Also, why are we acting like Naruto being unable to use chakra wouldn't massively affect his speed? Naruto characters get speed boosts alonside chakra boosts and even in the Haku thread, several people were arguing Haku's speed would be reduced due to having low chakra.

Regardless, Kaguya's profile literally lists her getting exponentially stronger via gaining an exponential amount of chakra, the same would be true in reverse for Naruto, getting exponentially slower due to being unable to use chakra.

The character has weakening after "losing chakra" means that his stamina is decreasing. The lower the amount of stamina, the weaker the character gets, and if it reaches 0, he can die, there is nothing strange.

Is mentioned in the fight with Orochimaru that Naruto knows that he would not be able to use ninjutsu, so he he fought with Orochimaru using only taijutsu, and as I mentioned there, there is no need for chakra to use taijutsu.

Regarding the wreckage, it is mentioned in the manga that there is no need for chakra to use taijutsu, but in some cases it is used, in the case of gates, they release an enormous amount of chakra in the body, which simply because it is running through the the user's body already makes him extremely physically stronger, so if Naruto was extremely weaker than his base form with 100% health, it is because it is being considered that he uses chakra in his base form to expand his stats during fights. Being crushed by the wreckage has nothing to do with speeding feats. I do not remember if "anti-feats" in durability can interfere in speed feats...

 

[M3X_2.0]

Drop this Retsuden subject. It's not relevant now.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Are we good now? I fixed the calc with KLOL's suggestions.

As soon as its accepted I'll apply all the changes and add a likely higher for Kaguya, Isshiki, and Bayorn Naruto. Also Code/Ada I guess.

 

[M3X_2.0]

We have two options

Manga Calc

• Use the distance between Naruto and Madara
• Use the degree value to calc Naruto's movement

Anime Calc

• Use the distance between Naruto and his staff
• Calc the movement Naruto did via pixelscaling

We calc what we see. That's why I'm using the degree, because the calc is manga only.

 

[M3X_2.0]

As soon as its accepted I'll apply all the changes and add a likely higher for Kaguya, Isshiki, and Bayorn Naruto.

Add this for Ashura Avatar Naruto and Indra Susano'o Sasuke. Isshiki, Jigen and Baryon Mode Naruto should get "At least" and "far higher", since we have some FTE chains here.

Also Code/Ada I guess.

It's better to wait, we don't know much about them.

 

[KLOL506]

Why not just draw a straight line from Madara's head to his right leg heel? That one is full-on straight.

 

[M3X_2.0]

Dude

It's the same thing, unless Kishimoto made a leg bigger than the other.

 

[KLOL506]

He continues to have the same problem of considering a movement much larger than he really needed.

Not true, even if we take the anime into account he moves his head fully downwards in a 90-degree arc. And then comes the fact that now in the anime you need to determine the distance between the beam and Naruto's face.