Removal of the Naruto Retsuden laser justification

[USklaverei]

I will draw to make it easier.


The thing is here, do you consider that Naruto made ALL this movement before the beam of light crossed the distance between Madara's mouth and Naruto's face, but you cannot prove it, since in this sweep, it is already the end of everything, with the beam of light fully stretched and Madara shaking her face.


Now here I am going to draw the thing about how it would be the minimum for Naruto to avoid this.
The red line is where Naruto was and the purple line is Madara's beam of light.
To avoid the beam, Naruto would only need to make this movement (blue line), since the beam width was super thin and he would have to move his torso just to prevent his head from being hit.

The rest of the movement is with Madara shaking her face and Naruto continues his movement, this is much more concrete.

Also, if we consider his method, Naruto would be much faster than Madara, since Naruto was able to make all this 55 degree movement and only after that Madara shook his neck, but it doesn't make sense, since Naruto already would be out of reach.

 

[GTsek]

Goodbye Naruto FTL, was good while it lasted, and if it depends on Boruto manga, it will never come back...

 

[Qawsedf234]

Goodbye Naruto FTL, was good while it lasted, and if it depends on Boruto manga, it will never come back...

Might happen if Galactishiki becomes a thing.

 

[M3X_2.0]

All this effort was useless. The basis of the argument is considering that you know the starting position of Naruto and Madara, but you don't. In this scene you’re using, they’re in motion, and we haven’t been able to see what their real position was before. The purple line is totally random.

 

[USklaverei]

Not true, even if we take the anime into account he moves his head fully downwards in a 90-degree arc. And then comes the fact that now in the anime you need to determine the distance between the beam and Naruto's face.

Yes, and using this, the movement is smaller and not as big as the current calculation considers.

 

[USklaverei]

All this effort was useless. The basis of the argument is considering that you know the starting position of Naruto and Madara, but you don't. In this scene you’re using, they’re in motion, and we haven’t been able to see what their real position was before. The purple line is totally random.

I am following the lines of movement, which show where they were before, it is very evident there, if you want I can circle them for you too.

 

[KLOL506]

I am following the lines of movement, which show where they were before, it is very evident there, if you want I can circle them for you too.

I'm afraid it's too arbitrary, You're forgetting that with your scans Naruto would have to duck and it'd be in a straight line.

 

[M3X_2.0]

You are not following anything, the lines of movement only appear in Naruto and Madara, and it does not indicate their total movement, since they had already started to move before.

 

[KLOL506]

Yes, and using this, the movement is smaller and not as big as the current calculation considers.

Yes but in the anime the distance between Naruto and the beam is also much shorter which means Naruto would have to cover that smaller movement (As in, the distance covered by his head when it bends in a 90 degree arc) within a smaller timeframe.

 

[USklaverei]

I'm afraid it's too arbitrary, You're forgetting that with your scans Naruto would have to duck and it'd be in a straight line.

Arbitrary is to assume that he moved 55 degrees and that was Naruto's total movement with Madara already shaking his head, unless of course we consider Madara to be much slower than Naruto and not straight line.

 

[USklaverei]

You are not following anything, the lines of movement only appear in Naruto and Madara, and it does not indicate their total movement, since they had already started to move before.

We can see the lines of the light beam as well and as we know the initial position of Madara's head by the lines, we were able to know the beam, but even considering the first one they used to find the distance between the two, they were facing each other.

 

[USklaverei]

Yes but in the anime the distance between Naruto and the beam is also much shorter which means Naruto would have to cover that smaller movement (As in, the distance covered by his head when it bends in a 90 degree arc) within a smaller timeframe.

I know, so I mentioned that it would be better to use anime.

 

[KLOL506]

Arbitrary is to assume that he moved 55 degrees and that was Naruto's total movement with Madara already shaking his head, unless of course we consider Madara to be much slower than Naruto and not straight line.

Madara starts to swing after the beam has already elongated to its full length, not before.

 

[GTsek]

Maybe would be better to use the anime version only, no?

 

[USklaverei]

Madara starts to swing after the beam has already elongated to its full length, not before.

So, the problem is there, if Naruto had made the 55 degree movement to avoid this, he would have already gone out of Madara's reach, that is, he wiggling his neck to the side would be useless, so, why would he still do that ?

 

[KingTempest]

By the way, I don't think that the "FTL reactions" is valid.

The calc says this:



But the page on reaction speed says this:





So would this actually be Relativistic+ reaction speed? Not FTL reaction speed.

Nobody answered this yet. I didn't know about this aspect

 

[M3X_2.0]

Look, I'm not going to change my calculation. It will stay the way it is now. Your whole argument is based on the initial position of Naruto and Madara, which cannot be measured with this scan, and even the lines of movement do not indicate this. They do not start in the starting position and do not end in the final position, as this is a mid movement panel. You place the lines wherever you want, completely arbitrary. Again, any argument based on this specific panel will be wrong, simply because it is not able to show us the initial position of Naruto and Madara.

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

So what's the status on the light fang thing?

 

[KingTempest]

What's the issues with light fang rn?

 

[USklaverei]

Look, I'm not going to change my calculation. It will stay the way it is now. Your whole argument is based on the initial position of Naruto and Madara, which cannot be measured with this scan, and even the lines of movement do not indicate this. They do not start in the starting position and do not end in the final position, as this is a mid movement panel. You place the lines wherever you want, completely arbitrary. Again, any argument based on this specific panel will be wrong, simply because it is not able to show us the initial position of Naruto and Madara.

So where are you taking the 55 degrees from?

 

[Fastestthingalive50]

Yes.

 

[M3X_2.0]

So where are you taking the 55 degrees from?

If you read my comments, you'd know that.

We have two options

Manga Calc

• Use the distance between Naruto and Madara
• Use the degree value to calc Naruto's movement

Anime Calc

• Use the distance between Naruto and his staff
• Calc the movement Naruto did via pixelscaling

We calc what we see. That's why I'm using the degree, because the calc is manga only.

We can't calc Naruto's movement using the manga, we don't see the moment when he dodged, only before and after. I'm assuming 55 degree because that's the movement we see him doing after dodging the beam. This is a issue the manga has. We have to accept it.

 

[USklaverei]

If you read my comments, you'd know that.

We can't calc Naruto's movement using the manga, we don't see the moment when he dodged, only before and after. I'm assuming 55 degree because that's the movement we see him doing after dodging the beam. This is a issue the manga has. We have to accept it.

That is, very arbitrary and something much bigger than he really needed to avoid the beam, since as I mentioned, the beam was VERY FINE and it doesn’t make any sense for him to move 55 degrees before the beam crosses that distance and then Madara move your head to the side trying to cut your neck, or Madara is dumb or much slower than Naruto.

 

[M3X_2.0]

If you think so, fine. You still haven't been able to prove your point or convince anyone. I already explained that there is no way to calculate the distance in that specific panel, and you still keep insisting on it.

 

[Rocker1189]

That is, very arbitrary and something much bigger than he really needed to avoid the beam, since as I mentioned, the beam was VERY FINE and it doesn’t make any sense for him to move 55 degrees before the beam crosses that distance and then Madara move your head to the side trying to cut your neck, or Madara is dumb or much slower than Naruto.

Huh, how does it mean Madara is slower than Naruto when it even implies the opposite. He still followed Naruto's dodge until he had to dodge further. Heck you can see in the anime that before the laser goes off screen Madara was already swinging his head, meaning that the speed of his swing is comparable to the laser itself.

Also can we get this over with Damage has shown a change that needs implementing. If it hasnt already.

 

[M3X_2.0]

The issue is mainly because of the movement, Usk would be right if we were calcing the anime feat, since Naruto indeed moved a short distance while the beam was some centimeters from his face. The manga feat isn't like that, because we don't see Naruto dodging, only after, and this "after" makes me belive that the movement was higher than in the anime.

The feats are different, yeah. In the manga, we don't see how close the beam was, in the anime we do. We don't see the movement in the manga, we do in the anime. I mean, if we consider the anime feat to be the best one to calc, and just say that the manga one happened like that is because of Kishimoto's bad paneling, I'm also fine with that.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, so I used the manga panel to figure out Nard's distance from the staff (Anime has a similar scene where Maddie paralyzes Naruto trying to bonk him, you could use that as well but you'd get similar results). Depending on whether you use my 435px variant using Madara's right leg heel for Madara's height or M3X's 393.9px height using Madara's left leg heel, the distance between Nard and the Staff ranges from 0.34154023-0.378 meters. Which also happens to be the beam's distance from Naruto's face before the latter starts to dodge.

And the anime gives us a very clear picture that Naruto literally dodged a head's worth of distance at the very least.

Nard's head is 0.2475112 m (I used his battle-damaged render as a reference, will elaborate later).

(299792458*0.2475112)/0.34154023= 217256956.905 m/s or 0.724691202555 c

(299792458*0.2475112)/0.378= 196301563.573 m/s or 0.6547915343921027 c

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Qawsedf234 What do you think? Use the manga and assume a distance, or use the anime and consider the manga feat to have bad paneling?

 

[USklaverei]

If you think so, fine. You still haven't been able to prove your point or convince anyone. I already explained that there is no way to calculate the distance in that specific panel, and you still keep insisting on it.

And you still wanting to force a 55 degree movement without any proof of that. We're in the same boat.

 

[M3X_2.0]

If you think so.

 

[USklaverei]

Huh, how does it mean Madara is slower than Naruto when it even implies the opposite. He still followed Naruto's dodge until he had to dodge further. Heck you can see in the anime that before the laser goes off screen Madara was already swinging his head, meaning that the speed of his swing is comparable to the laser itself.

Also can we get this over with Damage has shown a change that needs implementing. If it hasnt already.

I'm talking about the calculation, which he considers that Naruto made the whole movement of 55 degrees before the laser crossed the distance of 1.2 meters, that is, Madara only moved his head after Naruto made all this movement, but, why did he would you do that if Naruto had already come out of your reach horizontally?

 

[M3X_2.0]

At this point I'm just convinced to use the anime. So much discussion and having to assume things in the manga is already a sign that it should not be used.

 

[Rocker1189]

I'm talking about the calculation, which he considers that Naruto made the whole movement of 55 degrees before the laser crossed the distance of 1.2 meters, that is, Madara only moved his head after Naruto made all this movement, but, why did he would you do that if Naruto had already come out of your reach horizontally?

He is trying to direct a laser, based off of the anime Naruto made that movement at an incredibly close moment, meaning that Madara was surprised. In manga we dont see this but it stands to reason that the same thing happens.

 

[Rocker1189]

At this point I'm just convinced to use anime. So much discussion and having to assume things in the manga is already a sign that it should not be used.

I agree, I thought that is what we would be doing in fact.

 

[joshpiece]

I thought M3X’s manga calc is good but this is never going to end.

The anime is probably the best choice

 

[USklaverei]

Yes, from the beginning I am in favor of using anime.

 

[KingTempest]

@Qawsedf234 What do you think? Use the manga and assume a distance, or use the anime and consider the manga feat to have bad paneling?

@Qawsedf234


I'd be fine with using the anime

 

[USklaverei]

He is trying to direct a laser, based off of the anime Naruto made that movement at an incredibly close moment, meaning that Madara was surprised. In manga we dont see this but it stands to reason that the same thing happens.

But that's it, the anime supports my point that he made a small movement to avoid the beam and then continued the movement to avoid Madara's swing

 

[KLOL506]

But that's it, the anime supports my point that he made a small movement to avoid the beam and then continued the movement to avoid Madara's swing

The anime also pretty much allows us to determine the distance between the beam and Nard's face since it actually shows the beam hitting the staff before Naruto starts any actual meaningful movement, thus decreasing the distance between Naruto and the beam and also making Naruto's small movement require an even tighter timing window to dodge.

 

[Rocker1189]

The anime also pretty much allows us to determine the distance between the beam and Nard's face since it actually shows the beam hitting the staff before Naruto starts any actual meaningful movement, thus decreasing the distance between Naruto and the beam and also making Naruto's small movement require an even tighter timing window to dodge.

Naruto also reacts before the beam gets to his staff allowing us to get a reaction feat before also calcing movement.