Relooking at Mario's stats

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still don't have the time or energy to give some more elaborate debates because I have to work today, but I'll need to clarify a lot more details. First of all, we are definitely not revising the canon; Dino Ranger Black has already went over to death and the only people who want to separate Mario profiles into keys based on specific series are people who don't really know what a "Loose canon" is. A loose canon does have continuity, it's just the continuity is completely out of order. Much how a lot of Saturday morning cartoons do have a canon, but a lot of episodes are far out of order and have a lot of unexplained gaps. We can tell the Yoshi's Island games came first canonically given that Mario and Luigi are babies. But, sequals taking place after predecessors are pretty obvious, but then there's a lot of overlaps.

The Mario from Paper Mario 64 very much has evidence of being the same Mario from Mario Party, the sports games, and Luigi's Mansion. Which is confirmed via Luigi's Diary. And Thousand Year Door is the same Mario from both Paper Mario 64, Super Paper Mario, and Super Mario Sunshine. The Piantas recognize Mario as the man who cleaned up Isle Delfino, and the Shrine Sprites do have lore carried from Sunshine. Paper Jam is just another outlier all things considered, it's like how there was two Luigis in Super Mario Galaxy, or Mario and Luigi teaming up with their baby version in Partners in Time. The Paper Jam version of Mario literally just has his own origin story that contradicts every Paper Mario game that came before it. Not to mention, the physical stats of Mario and Luigi would still be more or less the same regardless given they came portrays them on equal grounds.

For why King Boo scales to Luigi, King Boo has 4-A AP, and Luigi tanks hits from him on a regular basis. Meaning his durability would scale, and he can trade blows with other Mario characters. I still have a defense for other tier 4 feats to discuss later.

Also, @Antvasima no offence, but I think you're being too hard on DatOneWeeb. While I can agree he's being too persistent from time to time, he's not strait up harassing people. And honestly, Hagane has been behaving far worse, which he's already been banned twice for acting like that before.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

DatOneWeeb:

Are you willing to drop the issues that our staff members have told you to drop, or do I have to prevent you from responding any more to this thread?

00potato:

No, it isn't anywhere near scummy. It is just about basic efficiency and not wasting time for everybody involved, if certain members derail threads or relentlessly prevent anything from getting done. It is part of the standard tasks of forum staff members in general, or XenForo wouldn't have included it as an easily used standard option.

I have to massively disagree with what's essentially silencing somebody because they don't agree with you.

There's a reason why groupthink is massively looked down upon and this behavior is engaging with it. Silencing the dissent is incredibly unproductive and damaging for anyone else who might disagree because this same situation would be forced upon them. It's not even like Weeb isn't offering anything new either, he has given more to consider as this thread has progressed such as the King Boo Japanese scan that warrants more consideration into the 4-A rating. Sometimes what is most convenient isn't the smart decision in the long run.

Also, I don't think XenForo exactly developed the tool to discourage insightful discussions. Pretty sure there was another reason in mind.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

And honestly, Hagane has been behaving far worse, which he's already been banned twice for acting like that before.

Hey, the second time was because of a clerical error

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Excuse me? Hagane is behaving perfectly fine in this thread

 

[Bobsican]

Hell, not even the Bob-omb buddies seem to either. Nintendo's already done a similar case with every variation of 1-1, unless you're telling me that's all the same location.

Uhhh... they do point out that he seems familiar, and this also happens with Luigi, referencing SM64 DS.

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Uhhh... they do point out that he seems familiar, and this also happens with Luigi, referencing SM64 DS.

i pointed that out yeah, i really dont know what that original point was getting at. it was like rewriting the context to make evidence against the position into evidence for it and at that point i dont think it was even an honest debate anymore.

 

[Starsprite53]

Uhhh... they do point out that he seems familiar, and this also happens with Luigi, referencing SM64 DS.

Tbh the stage looks slightly different from the 64 DS one

 

[Bobsican]

Well, time has passed, and it's clear that it's out of the amount of time passed since then, there's even the broken segment out of a Power Star needing to break a section of a wall to get it in SM64, in fact, this place changed depending on the choosen mission back on SM64, so this isn't to be unexpected.
If this is the case, it supports that the stuff inside the paintings on SM64 aren't just Immersion feats and are "legitimate" places it leads to.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Just wanted to make note of the thread's progress in an attempt to remain organized.

Legitimate​

• King Boo: Thanks to the original japanese text making no mention of "illusion"
• Rosalina (Though apparently scaling people to her isn't an option)

Shaky​

• Power Stars: The original japanese seems to directly conflict with the English version stating Bowser created the worlds. There also may be evidence that said worlds existed before Bowser stole the Power Stars.
• Bowser turning Yoshi's world into a pop-up book: Both Matthew and Eficiente said they were against this feat.

Rejected and Removed​

• Brobot
• Shadow Mario
• Yoshi creating Power Stars

 

[Starsprite53]

Well, time has passed, and it's clear that it's out of the amount of time passed since then, there's even the broken segment out of a Power Star needing to break a section of a wall to get it in SM64, in fact, this place changed depending on the choosen mission back on SM64, so this isn't to be unexpected.
If this is the case, it supports that the stuff inside the paintings on SM64 aren't just Immersion feats and are "legitimate" places it leads to.

I don't think so
The stage doesn't change in SM64 only one time after defeating king whomp
And can u explain to me how many things have disappeared like the castle in top of the Fortress,the flying platforms,the owl,the canon and things suddenly appears like that little tiny fortress floating, block holes ?

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

I don't think so
The stage doesn't change in SM64 only one time after defeating king whomp
And can u explain to me how many things have disappeared like the castle in top of the Fortress,the flying platforms,the owl,the canon and things suddenly appears like that little tiny fortress floating, block holes ?

things change between stars in mario games, including this very stage and one of the things you specifically referenced, namely the block fortress on the top of the mountain

 

[Starsprite53]

things change between stars in mario games, including this very stage and one of the things you specifically referenced, namely the block fortress on the top of the mountain

Things got changed only because of the stars somethings like the mini planet,removing the canon, disappearance of the owl,clouds in the BG,don't have anything related in getting the stars

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Things got changed only because of the stars somethings like the mini planet,removing the canon, disappearance of the owl,clouds in the BG,don't have anything related in getting the stars

sure they do, its called game design and game mechanics

the fact that the tower (or a star switch for a 64 DS example) as one example is even there (or absent, in the case of Galaxy 2) is to justify a gameplay decision, so the others being absent when they have nothing to do with the stage makes consistent sense

even then, all of this minutia would not help your case, nor would it help the creation side even reach a convincing point.

 

[Starsprite53]

sure they do, its called game design and game mechanics

the fact that the tower (or a star switch for a 64 DS example) as one example is even there (or absent, in the case of Galaxy 2) is to justify a gameplay decision, so the others being absent when they have nothing to do with the stage makes consistent sense

even then, all of this minutia would not help your case, nor would it help the creation side even reach a convincing point.

This sounds headcanonish,Explain to me the existence of the mini planet since it has nothing to do with getting the star?
This platfrom exists even tho there is no longer a star

and the tower (which is a very important part of the stage) doesn't exist) i wonder why
Heck even in 64 when you choose the stars after the tower's,it doesn't disappear
And idk why this is even a debate

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Can someone sum up the current conversation and how it relates to the SM64 pocket realms?

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Can someone sum up the current conversation and how it relates to the SM64 pocket realms?

this is only one tangential point about the throwback galaxy that is being relentlessly pursued for some reason while every other point isn't. basically the argument is is that the throwback galaxy is whomp's fortress because bob-ombs comment that both mario and luigi seem familiar, and the first star is referred to as the Return of King Whomp even though there has only been one other appearance of King Whomp in the entire franchise, and that is 64. the counter argument is that there are landmarks missing that were present in the original stage, which i think is supposed to mean that they are not the same place?

 

[Eficiente]

@Matt I agree that the Mario canon shouldn't all be the same in the profile but you should make a blog having all the evidence about it and already addressing what people will say on it, otherwise the matter would be received too chaotically.

 

[KieranH10]

I will be making a thread about that after this one hopefully.

 

[Ican'tthinkof1goodname]

I think you should be getting ready right now

 

[Antvasima]

I still don't have the time or energy to give some more elaborate debates because I have to work today, but I'll need to clarify a lot more details. First of all, we are definitely not revising the canon; Dino Ranger Black has already went over to death and the only people who want to separate Mario profiles into keys based on specific series are people who don't really know what a "Loose canon" is. A loose canon does have continuity, it's just the continuity is completely out of order. Much how a lot of Saturday morning cartoons do have a canon, but a lot of episodes are far out of order and have a lot of unexplained gaps. We can tell the Yoshi's Island games came first canonically given that Mario and Luigi are babies. But, sequals taking place after predecessors are pretty obvious, but then there's a lot of overlaps.

The Mario from Paper Mario 64 very much has evidence of being the same Mario from Mario Party, the sports games, and Luigi's Mansion. Which is confirmed via Luigi's Diary. And Thousand Year Door is the same Mario from both Paper Mario 64, Super Paper Mario, and Super Mario Sunshine. The Piantas recognize Mario as the man who cleaned up Isle Delfino, and the Shrine Sprites do have lore carried from Sunshine. Paper Jam is just another outlier all things considered, it's like how there was two Luigis in Super Mario Galaxy, or Mario and Luigi teaming up with their baby version in Partners in Time. The Paper Jam version of Mario literally just has his own origin story that contradicts every Paper Mario game that came before it. Not to mention, the physical stats of Mario and Luigi would still be more or less the same regardless given they came portrays them on equal grounds.

For why King Boo scales to Luigi, King Boo has 4-A AP, and Luigi tanks hits from him on a regular basis. Meaning his durability would scale, and he can trade blows with other Mario characters. I still have a defense for other tier 4 feats to discuss later.

Also, @Antvasima no offence, but I think you're being too hard on DatOneWeeb. While I can agree he's being too persistent from time to time, he's not strait up harassing people. And honestly, Hagane has been behaving far worse, which he's already been banned twice for acting like that before.

Okay. That seems to make sense.

My apologies about being too harsh then. I haven't prevented DatOneDweeb from responding here yet though, but I had the impression that he was tiring everybody else out, especially the staff, who also have to handle other tasks.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I will note for the Zelda video, Aonuma goes on to say One Mario in context is referring to him being the Mickey Mosue trope, where Mickey Mouse is different in every cartoon but it's the same him. Which would support there being one Mario since this coincides with SMB3 entire thing of just being a play.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will note for the Zelda video, Aonuma goes on to say One Mario in context is referring to him being the Mickey Mosue trope, where Mickey Mouse is different in every cartoon but it's the same him. Which would support there being one Mario since this coincides with SMB3 entire thing of just being a play.

Yes. That's what he was talking about. Miyamoto says that there is only "One Mario" because he sees Mario as an actor who can be put into practically any story or setting. Mario is loose and flexible. He's a classic cartoon character.

There is only "One Mario" in the same way that there is only "One Bugs Bunny".

 

[Antvasima]

So have we reached any conclusions here.

Also, I think that @DatOneWeeb can continue to post here if he stops spamming, and keeps things at a comparable level to other contributors.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

At this point I think only the Power Stars creating stars and Bowser’s pop-up book feat are left to discuss.

• • Power Stars: The original japanese seems to directly conflict with the English version stating Bowser created the worlds. There also may be evidence that said worlds existed before Bowser stole the Power Stars.
  • Bowser turning Yoshi's world into a pop-up book: Both Matthew and Eficiente said they were against this feat.

 

[Armorchompy]

Y'know, if Bowser created the SM64 worlds, why did he make Bob-Omb Battlefield a war zone with one of the two sides supporting Mario, rather than just making it fully conquered by the black Bob-Ombs?

 

[Starsprite53]

Y'know, if Bowser created the SM64 worlds, why did he make Bob-Omb Battlefield a war zone with one of the two sides supporting Mario, rather than just making it fully conquered by the black Bob-Ombs?

I fail to see how this negates the argument

 

[Armorchompy]

By itself it doesn't, but if it were to have been already created, it'd make perfect sense, but Bowser has no reason to create a full force that supports Mario's cause and helps him out.

 

[ElixirBlue]

full force that supports Mario's cause and helps him out/created by Bowser = PIS (probably)

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

full force that supports Mario's cause and helps him out/created by Bowser = PIS (probably)

still doesnt follow, at best based on the translations we have he created the monsters in the forces which is consistent with what we know

id prefer speculation and attempts at using unfounded scifi nonsense stops and trying to actually defend the reason these were considered feats in the first place continues

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Alright, making a full response. Before I begin, any and all translation arguments being used are HEAVILY moot.

• Maverick's source came from Reddit, not a place I would use.
• Hagane's is from a website that others have said is commonly inaccurate.

The translations I used comes from a friend who knows how to translate Japanese, as he quite literally had test scores on them. So any argument based off of that will not be responded, find a proper place or person to translate. Not Reddit.

You literally just listed the two key pieces of evidence without actually talking about their significance at all, while also making a false comparison to 1-1 references. 1-1's original stage has no dialogue whatsoever and no reference to it ever says "oh you're back" or "hmm have i seen you somewhere before?"

No dialogue is not a valid argument, if it looks the same it should be, no? My point was that Nintendo will in-fact re-use stages for nostalgia. There's literal differences from the stages alone.

• Missing tower
• Missing cage
• Missing platforms

Heavily doubt these are the same when they aren't even the same. Hell, the literal name "Throwback Galaxy" implies it's just a throwback. The tower doesn't even come back after defeating Whomp, despite 64 doing so. Throwback Galaxy exists as a throwback to Mario 64 being Mario's first fully 3D game, not as the literal place. Hell, King Whomp's boss battle even reuses the exact text from his original battle.

cameos are like some of the most frequently used evidence in these mario threads but here when we have actual physical characters as well as an omniscient third person party labelling a mission featuring a character as a "return" apparently that's too questionable?

What cameos? Bob-omb buddies? King Whomp? Oh they exist outside of the paintings? Shocker, so does every other enemy. The "return" section isn't enough proof that this is the same place, at best it means it's the same enemy. Which 64 DS has already done, you canonically rematch King Bob-omb, so this is nothing new.

I don't know if you are just skimming now or what, but here's the deal: A conqueror or a thief who takes your possessions and claims them as their own now owns your possessions.

And that's the assumption Bowser just... stole these paintings? Okay, explain the Mario, Luigi, and Wario paintings. Luigi's is only entered via Big Boo's Haunt, a stage Bowser has made, and Wario's is gone via a mirror. So the last two aren't able to be entered normally. So unless Peach just wanted to have photos of them, these are made by Bowser. And even if you argue it's not farfetched for Peach to have paintings of the Bros, she wouldn't for Wario.

Still wondering if you are just skimming, because I asked why you are using ANY english sources when we are questioning the reliability of english sources in the first place. Something which no one who wanted to upgrade the verse based on ridiculous starry sky feats had to do, by the way.

Irony. Because these English translations came from Nintendo and were given the O-K. There's a difference between doubting the in-game English text and the text coming from a guide that was released after the game. It's an add on. If the Japanese text (which both translations above are moot) contradicts it, we don't use it. But again, we need a contradiction.

non-sequitur, premises do not follow to the conclusion at all, what even is this

Doesn't elaborate on the fallacy.

You wanna tell me why a Luigi painting exists inside another place and Wario's via a mirror? Who else would be the one doing it? Bowser.

So in the same message you try to dismiss BBH by saying it is different but now you are going back to this. So yes, it is special pleading I guess, cool.

Just like with the Sunshine argument, you are arguing that a main course level has different properties than the other ones do without evidence, which is special pleading. Though funnily enough the "walls" and "paintings" thing likely seems to be inclusive of secret stages judging by Peach's quote here, and judging by the quotes you see if you hit ctrl+f walls or ctrl+f castle walls, it seems like its referring to everything within the castle walls which, yes, refers to every single stage, secret or otherwise. Way more reasonable than some being arbitrarily excluded.

I assume you mean

"My castle is in great peril!! I know it's because of Bowser again. Will he never tire of terrorizing us? He stole the castle's Power Stars and disappeared into the walls along with us! Retrieve all of the Power Stars from the walls and the paintings in the castle. Here is a hint: there are secret paths in this room, and one of them leads to a Secret Star! Find the Secret Star! It will help you on your quest."

The game itself already differs secret stars from the normal stages. The menu lists "Castle Secret Stars" as stages like Peach's Slide. Hell, Peach's quote supports my side. She herself claim that these are secret paths. She herself clearly makes them different. NEVER did I argue it acting different means it's different, quote me on that please. For ***** sake, Bowser literally was unaware of the secret stars, those stars are unrelated to him, while every other stage is.

I am saying this guide is about as accurate as Mega Man defending Monsteropolis in Mega Man 1 or whatever, Ristar meeting up with his father in his game, or Sonic rescuing Sally Acorn in Sonic CD, all of which are inventions from english manuals.

And does the 64 guide have contradictions? Stuff like Sally in CD is contradicted by the game itself, Mario being a visitor from Brooklyn isn't a contradiction when Donkey Kong and Odyssey exist.



Scaling will not be an issue due to Mario beating enemies who uses Power Stars from 64, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, and Odyssey with Mario himself not have any.

The argument of immersion being used can automatically be ignored due to some levels taking place inside a wall, meaning there are no images for immersion, which is what the examples commonly have.

 

[Antvasima]

Weeb seems to make some good points.

 

[Da_Lunge_Fish]

This thread has been a huge mess, so could somebody please tell me arguments against each feat?

 

[Antvasima]

A summary is probably a good idea, yes.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

That would be best, also I can’t wait for thanksgiving this year even the current crisis that’s been happening I hoped our guys feel the same way and god bless

 

[SMASHssf2]

This thread is pretty intense

 

[HeeHomeboyMokey]

Here's the deal: you can argue Bowser created something until you are blue in the face but it does not change the fact that the argument rests on special pleading, ignoring the original translation, cherrypicking the word "create" to only mean one thing it cannot possibly mean, using a joke from an English only manual that uses an English-only idea (Mario from Brooklyn), ignoring paintings existing in the physical world (equivocate it to 1-1 all you want but it does not change what an omniscient third person source tells us, or the characters in the galaxy in both the Mario and Luigi campaign), portraits having histories (and no, metaphysics will not save you), and oh yeah, using the character portraits actually defeats your own argument (Bowser apparently created these paintings and kidnapped Mario, Luigi, and Wario in these paintings yet there were secret castle stars in those paintings he did not know about??) There is not a single source consistent with the claim that Bowser created these things, and even then you run into the scaling issues earlier in the thread, and the starry sky issue.

Ignore all of this and then you have a case. Starry sky feats are wack, that is all.

Frankly I think I'm just going to bounce, this thread has gone on for over 500 messages of mostly stonewalling and focusing on minutia while all of this has been ignored in favor of an overly simplistic, context ignoring conclusion that creation was somehow involved. And again, I am not even against cosmic Mario, these feats are just really, really bad.

 

[Armorchompy]

Your argument does make sense to me.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

@DatOneWeeb Do you not support the 64 reddit translation even though it's consistent with my rough translation I provided beforehand?

 

[Chariot190]

Just stick with the original japanese text, look through some japanese manuals or guides if you want to use that type of things, if statements like Koopa creating the paintings exist even in those then cool, but if it's ONLY the eng version and not supported in any japanese material, idk man that's a tad sus.

If a statement saying he created them exists in the japanese material I can get behind it given them having histories doesnt inherently discredit it (it makes it whack but it doesnt mean it is impossible) and throwback galaxy is just a post game cool thing, but if we're basing this entirely off a eng only line then I'm gonna have to disagree with the notion of it.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

You know, on the same page where I got the translation, I asked where kingdom and monsters come from because I didn't see them when I was making my rough translation. I was replied with 'It's ambiguous, but implied not to be'