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Relooking at Mario's stats

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It feels quite sketchy about Mario's profile, most of the feats referenced there only happen in SMG, and I'm not sure if King Boo counts because with being consistently called 'the Master of Illusions' who's the say that those realms are even real.

And even if they are real, can creation feats always evaluate into destruction feats?
 
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most of the feats referenced there only happen in SMG
What? We aren't using SMG for his 4-A feats. They come from Yoshi's Story, Super Mario 64, Sunshine, Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon, and Super Paper Mario.


and I'm not sure if King Boo counts because with being consistently called 'the Master of Illusions' who's the say that those realms are even real.
King Boo's counts because we quite literally see on screen he makes these realms. Mater of Illusions was only stated once, but considering how everything else King Boo creates is very much real (Luigi breaks through a window after all), there's nothing much suggesting he didn't make them. Add that with how he created several realms, yeah it seems to be a bigger assumption that they're just illusions. Not even sure why that applies to his realms.


And even if they are real, can creation feats always evaluate into destruction feats?
Yes, we have an entire calc for it.
 
I am not going to go over every single feat or try to downgrade the page as a whole. But there is one major issue I have had for a long time and I was going to make a thread on it. But since there is now this thread for addressing feats I will say it here.

One of the feats listed is "Defeated Shadow Mario who can make realms with a starry background"

I'm sorry, but regardless of whatever someone might think Mario's tier is, this statement is just incredibly dishonest and should not be on the profile.

1. Absolutely nothing suggests Shadow Mario made these bonus realms. There are no scenes which show him creating them. It is never stated anywhere that he did. However we do know that the main stages in the game are accessible through portals that Shadow Mario explicitly created. And the bonus levels are also accessed through portals. So the far more logical conclusion would be that Shadow Mario also created these portals like he's previously been established to do, as opposed to this completely unmentioned act of creating several solar systems.

2. Even if Shadow Mario actually created solar systems, he did so with the Magic Paintbrush. It's not his own power. And it's not even his own invention, so it can't even be claimed to be something he can do with prep time. It does not in any way scale to Shadow Mario himself.

3. Mario "defeats" Shadow Mario by spraying water onto him. The obvious absurdity of treating water spraying as a Multi-Solar System level attack aside, again this is not Mario's own power. It's a weapon that was created by someone else that he used. Both of the feats, even if they are legitimate, are not performed by Mario or Shadow Mario.

Imagine if a man with a gun shot Kim Jong Un. And then we said that this man has Tier 7 punches cause Kim has a nuclear detonator and the man defeated him. This is literally the level of illogic that our Mario currently has. It's even worse since like I said the paintbrush most likely didn't even create those areas in the first place. Even if the page as a whole doesn't get a tier downgrade, this feat in particular definitely needs to go.
 
Another feat that shouldn't be there is the assumption that Yoshi can "create" Power Stars because you find one by eating a fruit with Yoshi.

Power Stars are found ramdomly across the scenery. There's absolutely no proof that Yoshi is crapping them out at that moment, and if you genuinely believe that then you're suggesting that a common fruit has solar system levels of energy to generate a Power Star.

Hell in Super Mario Sunshine you get a Power Star by shooting water at a post-sign, do you think the act of shooting water at a random chunk of wood literally transformed it into a Power Star?
 
I actually agree that the Luigi's Mansion and Super Mario Sunshine examples are not legit feats; the starry skies don't really have anything mention that Bowser Jr painted them. Also, the Mario knocking over Shadow Mario with water shouldn't even count and shouldn't even be brought up in profiles. Mario scales to Bowser Jr via the New Super Mario Bros series, but not because of the Fludd example. King Boo's realm is indeed called King Boo's illusion, and the starry sky mini game warps are also iffy.

Also, we really shouldn't mention names of controversial politicians @Ryukama Not to mention the analogy is terrible.
 
Apparently, the 4-A Sunshine has some backing with NPC statements.

DatOneWeeb will be back to address that.
 
I'm sorry if the mere mention of that person's name offends you but the analogy is absolutely valid. It is the exact same scenario the profile is claiming. "Guy 1 used a weapon to defeat Guy 2 who has a powerful weapon, therefore I'm going to scale Guy 1's physical strength to Guy 2's weapon."
 
If there are NPC statement proof that can be made for the Magic Paintbrushes AP. Also, it didn't offend me, it's just that Fandom staff have literally global banned people for stuff like that.

Also, the difference is that one melee weapon with magic properties while the other is just an ordinary weapon made of real world technology with no physics defying supernatural properties whatsoever. I'd prefer using a Kryptonite sword to kill Superman, who did a feat via a magic sword that can create dimensions. That would have been a much more clarified or less controversial comparison.
 
I already looked over the NPC statements. They do not support the notion that Shadow Mario created these worlds.

"A pathway to another world has opened"

Yeah Shadow Mario opened a portal (aka pathway) to another world. Same thing he does throughout the game. Painting portals to other areas. This line never says Shadow Mario created this other world. Just like Shadow Mario didn't create Bianco Hills, he just made a portal that instantly takes the player to that part of the island,

Second statement is about ooze coming into the water. I don't even know how this is supposed to at all support the claim he's creating solar systems. But it's in there.

Also even if Shadow Mario actually created these solar systems, he did so through the Magic Paintbrush. And Mario "defeats him" with FLUUD. Nothing scales to Mario or Shadow Mario's physical stats or own power.
 
I was talking to Ryukama about comparing a bullet and nuke to a Magic Paintbrush and a Super soaker; I agree Fludd is no ordinary supersoaker however, but doesn't quite fully justify the full power. Not arguing against other mechanics though but not arguing for them either.
 
Whether or not the weapon is a simple gun or physics defying is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that someone's physical stats do not scale to a weapon outside of their power no matter what it is. That's just plain common sense. A man's physical strength does not scale to his gun, a nuke, a magic physics defying paintbrush or whatever the weapon in question is. And killing another man with that weapon also does not make you as strong as whatever weapon the other man had in his possession. It is mind-boggling that I actually need to explain this.
 
@Ryukama they don't scale above a gun or bomb they used, magic weapons are much more durable. But for swords or non explosive throwing objects such as rocks, the power does come from the person swinging the sword or throwing the rock. Furthermore, a character being able to tank those weapons regularly and a person scaling because they harmed that durable character with punches is an example of a plausible scale.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus Nothing you mentioned is the same case as this. Unlike a sword or projectile object Shadow Mario does not physically contribute to the weapon's alleged creating powers. Nor does Shadow Mario ever use the paintbrush to shoot a multi-solar system destroying beam at Mario or something. At this point this is just nitpicking irrelevant things instead of looking at the overall idea.
 
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Also I already know these two points are gonna get brought up so let me get them out of the way.

"But the portals that go to the bonus worlds are not the same M portals that take you to the main stage."

The two portals looking different does not prove that Shadow Mario created the entire solar systems each portal leads to. That is the biggest leap in logic ever. Occam's Razor would support that Shadow Mario simple creates different looking portals rather than him actually creating solar systems off screen without it ever being mentioned in the story. We know that Shadow Mario creates portals to other locations that he did not actually create. So when we see another portal that leads to a different location, the logical conclusion is that Shadow Mario also created that portal to a different location. Not that this time around he created the entire location just because this other portal looked different.

"Shadow Mario uses the paintbrush to create creatures that hurt Mario, therefore it's an offensive weapon and Mario's dura scales since he survived these attacks."

These creatures do not automatically have Multi-Solar System level AP just because they were also created by something that supposedly created solar systems. They need actual feats to support that. Silver Surfer is not as strong as Galactus just cause Galactus created him with the Power Cosmic. A living creature made by a deity does not automatically scale to that deity's full capabilities. There is no reason to believe that a giant plant that bites you or a paint bubble that immediately collapses on itself has equal energy to entire solar systems being created out of nothing.
 
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Gonna start with Ryu, then Matt, then DDM.

Absolutely nothing suggests Shadow Mario made these bonus realms. There are no scenes which show him creating them. It is never stated anywhere that he did.
"A pathway to another world has opened above our fair land."
Yeah Shadow Mario opened a portal (aka pathway) to another world. Same thing he does throughout the game. Painting portals to other areas. This line never says Shadow Mario created this other world. Just like Shadow Mario didn't create Bianco Hills, he just made a portal that instantly takes the player to that part of the island,
The issue with that is how we see said portals are used. Because what you use is a false comparison. Anytime a character enters a standard level, they dissolve and reform from particles. Now let's look at the secret levels. When Mario enters, it's just that. He does not dissolve like he does with any other level. So these cannot be compared, as the portals Junior makes to access levels work differently from entering a secret level. It's also wacky to just say Junior made a portal to another place at Delfino Island. The secret levels are nowhere on the map, where as every other level is shown to take place on the island. So I can safely say Junior via the brush created these worlds.

Even if Shadow Mario actually created solar systems, he did so with the Magic Paintbrush. It's not his own power. And it's not even his own invention, so it can't even be claimed to be something he can do with prep time. It does not in any way scale to Shadow Mario himself.
I admit the profile wording needs a fix-up, but they still have scaling, which I will explain.
Mario "defeats" Shadow Mario by spraying water onto him. The obvious absurdity of treating water spraying as a Multi-Solar System level attack aside, again this is not Mario's own power. It's a weapon that was created by someone else that he used. Both of the feats, even if they are legitimate, are not performed by Mario or Shadow Mario.
I'll use it as more of a durability feat. Junior mainly attacks Mario via the brush itself. And as shown all over the levels, paint just by touching it can harm you. And since everything Junior creates is via the paint, it scales. He'll also use the brush's paint as an attack in Junior's Journey against other bosses and Koopalings. Additionally, many of the bosses are created by the paint, which Mario can harm. And since it all comes from the brush as the source, it all comes back and scales.

Second statement is about ooze coming into the water. I don't even know how this is supposed to at all support the claim he's creating solar systems. But it's in there.
The paint appearing right next to the secret levels suggests that Shadow Mario himself was doing these via the paint itself.

Power Stars are found ramdomly across the scenery. There's absolutely no proof that Yoshi is crapping them out at that moment, and if you genuinely believe that then you're suggesting that a common fruit has solar system levels of energy to generate a Power Star.
Hell in Super Mario Sunshine you get a Power Star by shooting water at a post-sign, do you think the act of shooting water at a random chunk of wood literally transformed it into a Power Star?
You've used this same argument before, and nothing has changed. Yoshi's always been able to create stuff by eating fruits. So Yoshi creating a Power Star from eating fruits is not anything new, to say otherwise takes more assumptions. And that second argument. Yikes. Well first off Matt, I think you mean Shine Sprites, not Power Stars. Those are two very different items. Second, there's a difference between creating and containing. In Yoshi's case, he's consistently shown to create via fruits. In your example, we have zero context. It's more likely that it just contains it.

King Boo's realm is indeed called King Boo's illusion, and the starry sky mini game warps are also iffy.
The realm itself was not called an illusion. It also makes very little sense to say the realm is just all an illusion and none of the setting is real. The og mansion was called an illusion, but it's still a feat due to how solid it was and the size. This also applies to Dark Moon, everything King Boo creates is shown to be solid and something that can actually harm you. This isn't a Mysterio case. Unless you're telling me when Luigi walks on stairs, he's just floating because he thinks he's on something. It's also shown King Boo's creations hit himself. To say that everything else King Boo creates that isn't the background is silly. Master of Illusions should probably be referring to how tricky Boos can be, with them creating fake doors and stuff. However in those cases, we see those are revealed to be fake. Luigi's Mansion Dark Moon doesn't display this. So I think you'll need more evidence than just the title itself.
 
These creatures do not automatically have Multi-Solar System level AP just because they were also created by something that supposedly created solar systems. They need actual feats to support that. Silver Surfer is not as strong as Galactus just cause Galactus created him with the Power Cosmic. A living creature made by a deity does not automatically scale to that deity's full capabilities. There is no reason to believe that a giant plant that bites you or a paint bubble that immediately collapses on itself has equal energy to entire solar systems being created out of nothing.
When both are made via the same source, the paint, that itself allows them to scale. Junior has no reason to not go all out, he wanted Mario gone. Same source, same power. Both are done in the same method.
 
You've used this same argument before, and nothing has changed. Yoshi's always been able to create stuff by eating fruits. So Yoshi creating a Power Star from eating fruits is not anything new, to say otherwise takes more assumptions. And that second argument. Yikes. Well first off Matt, I think you mean Shine Sprites, not Power Stars. Those are two very different items. Second, there's a difference between creating and containing. In Yoshi's case, he's consistently shown to create via fruits. In your example, we have zero context. It's more likely that it just contains it.
This is not an argument you just eat fruit in game and you get a Power Star, you're just assuming that he is creating a power star and ******** it out instantly and that this scales to AP. You don't have evidence of that you just think it makes the most sense for you
 
This is not an argument you just eat fruit in game and you get a Power Star, you're just assuming that he is creating a power star and ******** it out instantly and that this scales to AP. You don't have evidence of that you just think it makes the most sense for you
How is that an assumption? Yoshi eats fruits, gets full, creates a Power Star. It's literally on-screen and we have already seen him do something similar. It's far from an assumption.
 
See I already refuted these arguments before they were even made.

"A pathway to another world was opened" =/= "Shadow Mario created this world"

The portals looking different or having different effects does not prove that Shadow Mario created entire solar systems. What does prove it is finding an actual statement or a showing of this happening. But you can't find it cause it doesn't exist. And why must it be that instead of Shadow Mario being able to create entire solar systems out of nowhere, that he simply can just create two different types of portals?

And paint being next to a portal does not mean he created the entire world that this portal leads to. It's totally unrelated.

Silver Surfer is literally created with Galactus's same energy source, the Power Cosmic. It does not mean that he is anywhere even remotely close to as powerful as Galactus himself. Some random piranha plant that bit Mario does not have any feats of destroying entire solar systems. So you don't get to call it a 4-A combatant just because it was created by something that allegedly also created solar systems.

Shadow Mario was not out to kill Mario and he did not blast some multi-solar system destroying attacks at him. The fight literally just consists of him running around with Peach, and occasionally painting the ground, while Mario chases him down with some water. And if Shadow Mario's physicals were just as strong as the magic paintbrush, there is no reason for Shadow Mario to just not fight Mario physically. Especially if he wants to kill him like you claim.
 
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This is going to bare repeating. Find an actual cutscene where we see Shadow Mario creating solar systems, or a statement that actually says that he created them. Portals looking different is not an argument. A "pathway to another world being opened" doesn't mean Shadow Mario created this world. Unless you can actually prove that a feat in which Shadow Mario created solar systems occurred, then there is no such feat. I don't need to prove that he didn't create these solar systems. You have to actually prove that he did.
 
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The portals looking different or having different effects does not prove that Shadow Mario created entire solar systems.
Yes, it does. Because taken from your own words, "Yeah Shadow Mario opened a portal (aka pathway) to another world. Same thing he does throughout the game. Painting portals to other areas. This line never says Shadow Mario created this other world. Just like Shadow Mario didn't create Bianco Hills, he just made a portal that instantly takes the player to that part of the island"

You are quite literally arguing that Shadow Mario is painting a portal like he does in every other level. But if so, explain why they function differently. This applies to only the special levels, aka the levels where Shadow Mario always appears first and the ones that suggest he's personalized. You CANNOT ignore these differences just for the sake of it. Please, explain to me why these are the only ones that function differently. The entire point of them acting different is to prove that the portals to the levels =/= entrances to secret levels.

What does prove it is finding an actual statement or a showing of this happening. But you can't find it cause it doesn't exist.
That IS an actual statement. Your entire argument AGAINST said statement was again, that this just means he made a portal like any other level. The word "opened" is literally there to suggest he made them. Considering how there was no pathway towards such a place, but all of a sudden there is, guess what, he just made that world. And like I just said, this is not the same case as any other normal stages, there's too many important details. Should also be noted that Junior states anytime he draws with the brush itself, all his "wishes come true".

Silver Surfer is literally created with Galactus's same energy source, the Power Cosmic. It does not mean that he is anywhere even remotely close to as powerful as Galactus himself. Some random piranha plant does not have any feats of destroying entire solar systems. So you don't get to call it a 4-A combatant just because it was created by something that allegedly also created solar systems.
You don't feats when scaling is a thing. Not only did you ignore the section where I state Junior uses the brush itself as a weapon, but your argument if needing feats to actually scale is stupid. That's why scaling is a thing. Someone preforms a feat, you can contend with them, therefore you're around that level. The reason why the bosses scale is due to the paint itself being 4-A, shocking right? And how did Junior create said realm? With the paint. Considering how these enemies manage to harm Mario suggest they weren't made with fodder in mind. This is me saying someone creates a planet via magic. They also use that magic as an offensive ability. That magic isn't planet level in power.

Shadow Mario was not out to kill Mario and he did not blast some multi-solar system destroying attacks at him. The fight literally just consists of him running around with Peach, and occasionally painting the ground, while Mario chases him down with some water.
"I'm gonna create dangerous monsters and hazards, but they won't kill Mario." ???

That should be blatant in what he's trying to do when his prison plan failed. Junior attacks Mario via the paintbrush and paint itself, he also uses it in Junior's Journey as once again, a weapon.
 
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