Regarding "Non-Universal" Concepts and Concept Manip

[Bobsican]

Okay, here we are and it seems now we have to do an entire CRT on how to treat "Non-Universal" concepts (Aka, things that are totally of "abstract" nature and all, but simply not in an universal scale), as this appears to happen in plenty of verses and it can't be really ignored now as the issue became blatant in the latest Kingdom Hearts CRT (Then we also found out that this affects the entire idea of "conceptual EE" as most of the time it's not actually affecting an universal concept, among many other conventional showings of the "so-called" Concept Manip in multiple other cases).

In other words, we need a way to measure "Non-Universal" concepts, rather than either just ignore them in indexing or just pushing them for some sort of "special" treatment, as now the issue is getting too high, so some standards for such are needed now.

 

[Executor_N0]

So, I'm making a blog to talk about this issue, but I still need to complete it (I may end the text later tonight or tomorrow).

However, I want to wait to see what everyone else thinks about this topic.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

If "non-universal concepts" can absolutely not be accepted as something that falls under Conceptual Manipulation, then I'd suggest to make a new page for a power that allows a character to manipulate them since multiple characters from multiple franchises would have it. We would have to decide on a name for that power though.

 

[Xehanort1307]

I think it would be right

 

[Anttron224]

Non Universal Conceptual Manipulation

 

[Executor_N0]

@Nehz XZX I would be fine with simply editing our Conceptual Manipulation page to something like Essence Manipulation, or Metaphysical Essence Manipulation, since it would make the power more comprehensive and we would simply need to explain it more in the character own page (I always believed that our power pages would need to be simply a basic explanation, but the character own page should to the specific thing, unless it's super simple).

 

[Agnaa]

From the Conceptual Manipulation page:

Concepts that are not abstract or universal, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation the character must be able to manipulate abstract and universal concepts.

I'm not sure what happened in other cases like this, but I think it's just not accepted as concept manip.

 

[Antoniofer]

Concepts are generalized ideas about something in concrete on reality, created through the perspective of many, you may find the concept of life, but not the concept of an specific individual.

That's one of the reason we get rid of Conceptual level regen, that doesn't really mean anything.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Maybe pseudo-conceptual manipulation?, cognition manipulation? perhaps revive type 3 abstract existence but alter the definition to apply to non-universal concepts?.


EDiT; Nvm Essence manipulation sounds better and more to the point.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

I'd like to see this discussed and evaluated too.

IMO someone's essense/concept/information; the total sum of that person's being, should be conceptual EE, provided the verse points out it's abstract nature and doesn't delve too deeply in some nonsense.

Manipulation on any scale of these 'essenses' should just be no different than the standards for soul or mind manipulation. Potency = amount and/or tier affected (higher D)

Or something else...

Hopefully I have this thread's objective right

 

[Agnaa]

Concepts are generalized ideas about something in concrete on reality, created through the perspective of many, you may find the concept of life, but not the concept of an specific individual.

That's one of the reason we get rid of Conceptual level regen, that doesn't really mean anything.

Wait, there's no concept of a specific individual? Kakegae Yuzuriha has limited concept manip because she can replace the concept of herself with another of similar attributes, letting her transform into other people.

I feel like saying "there's no concept of a specific individual" throws out lots of feats in lots of verses. Concepts of specific individuals can still be abstract and universal.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

From the Conceptual Manipulation page:

Concepts that are not abstract or universal, such as those outlined in Idealism and Nominalism, do not qualify for conceptual manipulation of any kind. For a character to qualify for conceptual manipulation the character must be able to manipulate abstract and universal concepts.

I'm not sure what happened in other cases like this, but I think it's just not accepted as concept manip.

Nasu concepts are accepted as being well, concepts, even tho they don't apply to the whole of reality. Among a **** ton of other odd properties, they transcend reality like Platonic concepts, but don't intersect with all of it either. Each World (not planet, there is a difference) has it's own set of concepts

 

[Agnaa]

@Iapitus That's fine, as they apply to entire worlds, making them universal. Only type 1 concepts should apply to every part of reality no matter the scale.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Concepts are generalized ideas about something in concrete on reality, created through the perspective of many, you may find the concept of life, but not the concept of an specific individual.
That's one of the reason we get rid of Conceptual level regen, that doesn't really mean anything.

What about Origins in Fate? The conceptual foundation of a person from which all else is built from. Like, someone's Origin can be "Consumption", "Impalement", "Severing", "Binding", "Sword", etc. and it defines there whole being but it is also an actual cosmological piece of them that can be weaponized to effect reality.

I/O also has individual concepts of Self, but not in the psychological sense and have actual cosmological functions again.

 

[Executor_N0]

It's more a case of something that is beyond our level of physical level of being, it's what makes us... "us"... outside of our material body. This is what a metaphysical essence is. When we are talking about a "concept" here, most of the time we are talking about the metaphysical essence of something that is "universal" (Please, understand this isn't talking about universe-sized something, but the sum of every particular thing in a set).

When we are talking about the "concept" of time we are not talking about what we think about time, but or the sum of all the physical time, or something that is beyond our physical realm that makes "time"... "time".

A soul is the same thing, your essence that exists outside of the same level of being as your body, but that makes part of what being "you" really is.

Souls, spirits, concepts, even mind is just multiple names for the same thing, a essence that exists outside of the "physical" (Considering the right context). All that really matters in the end is how we are going to explain this is our pages, the name really isn't the problem if we can agree in a good enough explanation.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

isn't their a planned HUGE///MASSIVE///BIG/// ENORMOUS///GIAGANTIC conceptual manipulation revisions planned by ultima

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, there's a kind of powers that may sound similar but actually different, there are Concept Manipulation, Definition Manipulation, Archetype Manipulation (generally called Platonic concept or whatever), and Essence Manipulation. Changing the fundamental properties of someone is generally Essence or Definition Manipulation, that I believe is what akegae has, that iirc had to do with changing the kaiji of people (?).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Concepts are generalized ideas about something in concrete on reality, created through the perspective of many, you may find the concept of life, but not the concept of an specific individual.
That's one of the reason we get rid of Conceptual level regen, that doesn't really mean anything.

What about Origins in Fate? The conceptual foundation of a person from which all else is built from. Like, someone's Origin can be "Consumption", "Impalement", "Severing", "Binding", "Sword", etc. and it defines there whole being but it is also an actual cosmological piece of them that can be weaponized to effect reality.
I/O also has individual concepts of Self, but not in the psychological sense and have actual cosmological functions again.

Origins are apart of Akasha

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

@Iapitus That's fine, as they apply to entire worlds, making them universal. Only type 1 concepts should apply to every part of reality no matter the scale.

There are multiple Worlds per universe tho, and aliens that visit Earth don't have the concepts not native to their world applying to them. They have other quirks about them too. Also, just because a concept applies to a World doesn't mean it applies to all things within that World

 

[Nehz_XZX]

"isn't their a planned HUGE///MASSIVE///BIG/// ENORMOUS///GIAGANTIC conceptual manipulation revisions planned by ultima" TheUpgradeManHaHaxD

There is?

 

[Agnaa]

@Iapitus Oh, I don't know then.

isn't their a planned HUGE///MASSIVE///BIG/// ENORMOUS///GIAGANTIC conceptual manipulation revisions planned by ultima

idk how huge it is, but it'd change type 2 and type 1. I believe type 1 will be "Platonic concepts that apply to all scales of reality no matter the size" and type 2 will be current type 2.

 

[The_Causality]

I don't even see how a Concept can't be Universal, every Concept are in the Universal, it can't be another thing.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

question, are we talking 3-A Universal, High 3-A universal, or Low 2-C universal???

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So for those expecting this to be done in like a day...

 

[Executor_N0]

@The Causality As I said, how we call something, or the very franchise, doesn't really matter unless we can show what the word really means in the right context.

Concepts are universals in that page exactly because this is the "sum of every particular thing in the set", where the concept is equal to the set and the concept gives meaning to all the particular things in the set.

The concept of "you" is what makes you... "you". But as far as we can really understand essences, we could simply say that this concept is equal to the soul or the mind, and some people will simply treat the "concept" name as something above soul or mind, when this isn't really the case. This is why I said that we should do something more generic, to not fall in traps like this.

@TheUpgradeManHaHaxD As I said in my comment, this isn't the type of "universal" that we are talking about (At least I think). Universal is all the things in a set, the "universal of cats" is every single possible thing that can be considered a "cat", not really something that is the size of the universe or something like that.

Again, explaining this in the most simply way (We can be even more specific).

 

[Bobsican]

Okay, them I'm going to leave this by itself for a while, I've got some things to do.

 

[Antoniofer]

What makes someone "you" would be the essence, the set of characteristics that makes someone what fundamentaly is; if someone lose it, then it lose its identity. Tend to share characteristic with the soul, although is not unique of living beings, and can apply to everything.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

isn't their a planned HUGE///MASSIVE///BIG/// ENORMOUS///GIAGANTIC conceptual manipulation revisions planned by ultima

Those revisions were mostly supposed to work out the specifics of Type 1 and Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation to fit with the new standards for 1-A, unrelated to the subject of this thread.

Anyways, I have no particular opinion on this topic, although I can see myself agreeing with Executor in that maybe "Conceptual Manipulation" needs to be widened into something looser in definition. From what I see, the problem seems to mostly come from how "concepts" as the page defines them are different from how specific verses may define them, so it often creates cases of incompatibility, like in Fate as mentioned above.

 

[Antoniofer]

Perhaps the issue comes from the powers simply sharing the name (like "concept" in this case); it have to do how we define power (that it should use general definitions), the "concept" of one verse could be the "soul" of another.

 

[The_Causality]

@Executor I see, you're right, we need to stop the generalisation of the name "Concept" since verses have different setting of this world 'as you said, it could mean soul, mind ect.).

 

[Executor_N0]

@Antoniofer I agree. My original idea was simply create a page to explain the idea of multiple levels of being. Were we could have different levels of existence with souls, minds, spirits, concepts or any different name that the franchises chooses. Everything could be under this power and we would simply explain how the individual verse uses this in the verse own page, but still with a good guide to explain some common uses of that.

 

[Antoniofer]

I think by defining the general meaning of stuff like soul, essence, concept will avoid people to mix them. In Anima for example these meaning tend to mix a lot, but with minor differences, like, everyone has a "spirit", but only the living has a proper "soul" as they can conventionally die; on top of that, the concept has their own essence, but they remain in othe rlane of existence.

 

[Muchacho_mrm]

It having it's own page would be nice. And broke

Excuse my grammar:'
Essense manipulation is the ability to manipulate, control, damage or erase the fundamental essense of a person; the total sum/representation of that person/thing's being. In simpler terms, it is what makes you, 'YOU'.

It is generally associated with information/conceptual manipulation, in this case it applies locally, either to a single or multiple existences. Characters or verses with this ability interact with essenses in a similar manner as souls or minds.


Basic manipulation of this ability can be used to read the target's identity, while high level users can change, erases, corrupt, curse, control or damage another's essense.

 

[EvilMegaCookie]

Okay. Question.

Why does any concept that is not universal... Disqualify it from being conceptual manipulation? If I am understanding the OP correctly.

What is the issue exactly?

 

[Executor_N0]

@EvilMegaCookie In practice it would just be that we would not be able to qualify if someone that could affect a universal concept just by being able to affect the concept of a single being. But I don't really care about the "vs" side of this thing.

In our powerlisting pages, it's just that we didn't specify very well what is a "concept" and if this has a difference to a soul, spirit, mind, etc. In the end, they are simply different names to different types of essences (Or even the same thing in certain franchises), so we would need to update our pages to deal with the large idea of "metaphysical essences".

 

[Bobsican]

Will the "current" Concept Manip and the new "Essence Manip" relate in some way? As this also brings the question of Concept Manip being better hax than "Essence Manip" in a match, for example.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I dont really see the point in this thread? Sounds like a misunderstanding of how Types 2 and 3 work...

 

[Bobsican]

I dont really see the point in this thread? Sounds like a misunderstanding of how Types 2 and 3 work...

Currently concepts are meant to only be applicable to "universal" ones, meaning that a concept of "you" doesn't qualify for concept manip by itself with the current standards (Even if actually abstract and so on), for example, so now an entirely new standard for the "Non-Universal" ones is being done here.

 

[ShivaShakti]

I dont really see the point in this thread? Sounds like a misunderstanding of how Types 2 and 3 work...

Currently concepts are meant to only be applicable to "universal" ones, meaning that a concept of "you" doesn't qualify for concept manip by itself with the current standards (Even if actually abstract and so on), for example, so now an entirely new standard for the "Non-Universal" ones is being done here.

Wouldnt that be Type 4?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I dont really see the point in this thread? Sounds like a misunderstanding of how Types 2 and 3 work...

Currently concepts are meant to only be applicable to "universal" ones, meaning that a concept of "you" doesn't qualify for concept manip by itself with the current standards (Even if actually abstract and so on), for example, so now an entirely new standard for the "Non-Universal" ones is being done here.

Or maybe a complete revision of Conceptual Manipulation