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Regarding "Non-Universal" Concepts and Concept Manip

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I think that simply updating Conceptual Manipulation page to explain a bit more about the "immatterial thing that makes all of you/this thing" would already be a nice idea.

Why is this necessary and why does it belong on the concept manip page?
 
@Agnaa I was just expanding to what Antoniofer said about the difference between something being just a "concept" or just a "essence".

It seems that this is a problem with some franchises that uses the idea of a "Immaterial essence that defines what you are in the physical world" and some people wants that to be considered at some level of "abstract existence" and the power to control it to be something like "conceptual manipulation".

But, for other people the "concept of a single being" should be treated differently to the "concept of a universal thing/not a single thing">
 
Yeah, that is not going to change that people still mixes concepts with essence. Change the Conceptual Manipulation page so people have clear that concepts depends of perspective, and perhaps create the a power for Essence Manipulation.
 
It seems that this is a problem with some franchises that uses the idea of a "Immaterial essence that defines what you are in the physical world" and some people wants that to be considered at some level of "abstract existence" and the power to control it to be something like "conceptual manipulation".

I'd say that those people are wrong. Nothing about that implies a conceptual nature.

But, for other people the "concept of a single being" should be treated differently to the "concept of a universal thing/not a single thing"

I'd say that those people are wrong. Just factually wrong on what concepts are and how they work.

Yeah, that is not going to change that people still mixes concepts with essence. Change the Conceptual Manipulation page so people have clear that concepts depends of perspective, and perhaps create the a power for Essence Manipulation.

Why is Essence Manip an important power to include?
 
Welp, we could simply not do it, but I believe it will make users notice the difference better; simply commenting in a verse saying "what make you fundamentally you is not the concept" may be enough, no meister of philosophy needed or similar.
 
Okay, so this has gone on for a while and I'll get straight to the point. This all started with the Kingdom Hearts thread and the conceptual stuff regarding hearts being denied. It may be best if some more people knowledgeable on concepts comment over there for more accurate viewpoints on the topic.
 
I also think that one of the things about what Antoniofer is really saying, is that the "concept" part of the "Universals" isn't about something immaterial that defines something. The "Conceptualism" is exactly that "X is a property constructed in the mind, so it exists only in descriptions of things."

So by this base, use the word "Concept" wouldn't be coherent in what this world normally means IRL, while the use of a word like "Essence" would be easier to explain that difference I think

But again, it's more a linguistic problem and since most of the times "concept" here is accepted as it's from the Platonic realism or Aristotelian realism, simply it isn't really a problem for most people.
 
Yeah Conceptual Manipulation is like an example, someone erased the concept of pain; and now no one can experiences pain of any sort until someone recreates pain. Conceptual Manipulation can also be stuff like "Granting someone immunity to all thrown attacks" which makes a character 100% invulnerable to all non-melee attacks.

And pretty much agree with Executor that stuff like essence and soul is not enough to mean concept.
 
I think that some people simply like to use "concept" to hype a character or a power even when the franchise doesn't explain what a "concept" really is.

While, other uses franchises with "something even beyond a soul" to say that it's a concept, or something like that.

In the end, I think that we should simply explain the power going by what the franchise has to say, although this is already said and explained here, but some people sometimes still tries to do something like that.
 
@Antoni I was kinda hoping that "what makes you fundamentally you" not being a concept was obvious enough, since those things have no relation. I also have never encountered people claiming that it is so I can't say it's very common, but maybe I've just been in different communities than people who say that.

@Dragonmasterxyz But even worse, I heard that KH's concept stuff wasn't just rejected for being "non-universal" or whatever. Wokistan sent me half a dozen other, more important, issues that lead to it being denied.

While, other uses franchises with "something even beyond a soul" to say that it's a concept, or something like that.

As long as they explicitly call that thing a concept that seems fine, but even then we're only giving it because they're explicitly calling it a concept.

For essence stuff that wouldn't fit into concept/soul hax, my main worry is that this wiki has been around and functioning for many years now, so why has every verse been properly catalogued until now without people clamoring for Essence Manipulation if it's so important for properly describing many verses?

Or maybe to phrase it less harshly, how have these verses had these statements treated until now, and why was that inadequate?
 
If I have to guess, I would say that since the tiering system changed; people looks more for metaphysical explaination rathe rthan dimensional ones, that's why you see more "conceptual this" or "abstract the other" more often than before. So as Executor said, people use it to hype the character/verse.
 
If it was never necessary and would only be included on pages to wank them then it sounds far from a good idea...
 
I'm talking about the Concept Manipulation, not about the possible Essence Manipulation, that somehow I expected to reduce this hype. Sure, you can always write within the CM page that the fundamental attributes of objects or beings aren't considered concepts, and could also be ok.
 
Sure, you can always write within the CM page that the fundamental attributes of objects or beings aren't considered concepts, and could also be ok.

Eugh idk about this wording specifically. A wording similar to this is the option I'd be happiest with but I'd still doubt it's even helpful outside of correcting one or two users, but if everyone else thinks it's necessary go ahead.
 
TBH i find the clarification above fine, as the more explicit something is, the least likely is something to be taken incorrectly.

It may only correct one or two users, but it still saves a ton of potential discussion over something that has already been discussed already (This).
 
I don't like that wording, because it implies that those things aren't considered concepts even if they're explicitly declared concepts.

It's more than those things aren't considered concepts by default.
 
Rememebr that we do not rate abilities as x power just cuz a name, so for example simply the verse saying "this is matter manipulation" when the power is definied as manipulationg supernatural energies, then is not Matter Manipulation and instead is Magic. Same here, simply calling something concept and then is definied to be essence then its name is irrelevant, as it fits as other thing that is not Concept Manipulation.
 
But, like I've said many times now and haven't had a response to, individuals can have concepts exclusively for themselves.

Concepts are abstract forms of physical properties, and being one specific person is a physical property.

If that's the route you want to take by adding that line, then it shouldn't be added at all.
 
Not sure if essence manip is the way to go, but I agree that we need something to cover non-universal concepts that are explicitly superior to things like a soul.
 
What are the conclusions here?
 
There isn't a concrete conclusion yet. Other people have been suggesting various additions to the concept manip page or new pages to add, and I've been saying that the issues they're pointing out are either misunderstandings on how concepts work, or are not issues in how we currently implement things.
 
It doesn't feel like as if we are actually getting anywhere.
 
@Agnaa

Okay. Thanks. So what do you suggest that we should do here?
 
What about the Greeeds in Kamen Rider OOOs? They're literally described as "Little more than Walking, Sentient Desire" with the Core Medals being literally Desire; and Kamen Rider OOO's PuToTyra is able to EE them to nothing.
 
Yeah, that do not sounds like concept at all, it actually sounds as conventional soul (as the soul also hold the emotions of people).
 
Antoniofer said:
Yeah, that do not sounds like concept at all, it actually sounds as conventional soul (as the soul also hold the emotions of people).
Click to expand...
When in the hell has a soul ever been described as "Little more than walking, sentient desire"? What?

Also no. Greeeds don't have something else- Greeeds are LITERALLY desire. Not emotions or some crap alongside a soul- which wouldn't make them special at all.
 
@Antva I don't think anything needs to be done. Our system's handled concepts in every verse well for a while now, and the only issue I've seen brought up is from a misunderstanding from a CRT being rejected.

Executor and Antonio were pushing for a note about not automatically accepting "a character's fundamental essence" as being a concept, but I don't think that's necessary since that gets rejected already anyway. Maybe they could enlighten us more about any suggestions?

@Akreious That doesn't sound remotely conceptual.
 
Welp, soul could be sentient, aren't they? and they hold emotions, that I associated with the word "desire", but as "little more than walking" can't say much, that little amount of text do not really means anything, and context is needed.

Don't really have any suggestion aside of the already mentioned, but if other verses are commiting the same mistake that KH, we may be unaware of that (I have the suspicion that Anima's soul fits more with essence definition rather than concept's for example) and then the issue remain.
 
KH didn't even make a "mistake" tho. As far as I can tell someone suggested a CRT for it, which got near-universally rejected by staff. I've never seen hint of this issue in my years on the site, and I don't wanna be adding text to pages for misconception that comes up once every few years.
 
Wait I just realized what the OP is proposing.

Why the hell is only Universal-Ranged Concepts the only things Conceptual? Literally nowhere in the definition of "abstract" nor "concept" requires such at all

"existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence."

The examples given in the Conceptual Page that outlines non-qualifying Concepts are literally pages to philosophies which doesn't really address people that's whole deal is "Made of only pure desire", which IIRC is very abstract since you can't HIT desire.
 
@Akreious You hadn't read the OP, and even now you haven't read the thread? Dude, if you want help with Kamen Rider's concepts please make your own thread.

But to respond to your post, as I clarified later, it's not only universal-ranged concepts that are conceptual.

Abstract =/= conceptual. Being made out of pure desire has absolutely nothing in any way shape or form to do with concepts.
 
Antoniofer said:
Welp, soul could be sentient, aren't they? and they hold emotions, that I associated with the word "desire", but as "little more than walking" can't say much, that little amount of text do not really means anything, and context is needed.
Click to expand...
Well a few things. Your interpretation that they're "merely" souls that have emotions directly conflicts with the whole... they're literally desire. Why would they AT ALL be special if they amount to nothing more than glorified ghosts? Especially with Kamen Rider Ghost who made it so everyone and their mothers are ghosts.

On the topic of context:

Agnaa said:
Abstract =/= conceptual. Being made out of pure desire has absolutely nothing in any way shape or form to do with concepts.
Click to expand...
The literal definition of conceptual says otherwise but sure I guess

"an abstract idea; a general notion."

"a general notion or idea; conception.

an idea of something formed by mentally combining all its characteristics or particulars; a construct.

a directly conceived or intuited object of thought."
 
Guess you'll need to make a separated thread for that, but materialized emotions (in this case desire) are not concepts, we do not consider the Green Lantern (or any Ring Corporation) to have Concept Manipulation for manifesting willpower.
 
@Akreious Important thing about those definitions, they explicitly mention an abstract idea.

Also, don't use the dictionary definition of something when our site has our own definition for our own uses.
 
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