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Kingdom Hearts: Re:Minder of the Concepts

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Bobsican

He/Him
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We are here because it seems the stuff that ended up here didn't get evaluated properly, while I actually thought that it was fine because no one objected it in the second thread (I'm sorry for expecting that just adding a link to continue to the next thread would inform everyone of the next thread, especially the overworked staff). With that being said, let's begin by remaking the CRT for all the subjects.

Please be as explicit on arguments as possible and don't just use "But this never got accepted", explain why you disagree on detail and so on, this is a CRT remake after all.

The Conceptual nature of Light, Darkness and the "heart" has been compressed in this button below as it got too long to reasonably just leave here, please note that most (if not all) of the stuff below is based on this, so please focus your arguments on this section.

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Summary of the "Normal" physiology in KH

In KH we know that a Body AND a Soul are what Nobodies are made of, while Heartless are made of a "heart" after being consumed by darkness (yes, I know the irony).

Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will).

What could the "heart" be?
Obviously the series isn´t talking about the organ everytime they mention "heart", anyways...

The "heart" actually is a type 2 Concept, with type 2 Abstract Existence (I know it sounds crazy, this will be elaborated with the next paragraphs)

What supports this?
(Credit to TheSpeedster (Thread:3798741) and my old blog I did to explain this stuff) Well, as we can see in Ever´s blog, Heartless are tied to the "concept of darkness", which is also tied to the concept of light. And there´s the general agreement of Nobodies (which lack a heart) having already Nonexistent Physiology. I'´ll go ahead and first explain how "Light" and "Darkness" are the abstract concepts that make up existence, then how the "heart" is of abstract nature too:

"My brother pupil Eraqus thinks only in absolutes. He has persuaded himself that light is the only way, but forgets that light cannot exist without shadow. I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in." -Xehanort Report 8

Xehanort states again that light and darkness need each other to exist "Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin; without darkness, there is no light. The Keyblade wielders' great war over Kingdom Hearts was fought by defenders of the light, servants of darkness, those who sought to reconcile the two, and those motivated by nothing more than lust for power. A whole spectrum of thought was swept into the conflict, and the worlds that did not go to war found the war brought to them. In the end, the whole World was cast into darkness."* -Xehanort Report 4

There's also the fact that all hearts in existence make up KH, the literal embodiment of light, and there's also Mickey directly stating stuff supporting this.

And beings who don't have light/darkness at all are literally nonexistent as we all know, anything

There´s also even more regarding what TheSpeedster (Thanks you) pointed out, aka, the following:

- Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs

- Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45

- The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt

- The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem's_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s

- Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart

  • Extra stuff from Re:Mind:
- Xehanort calls his "heart" his essence

- Kairi's "heart" is literally referred as her essence

- Chirithy states that the hearts being destroyed makes one fade out of existence entirely

Now when we define "essence" under multiple different times, but it is most obviously not the soul. The soul and the heart are described as being two different things in their entirety, as Xemnas makes this clear yet again when he says destroying the soul would not affect Lea's heart. This is from Kingdom Hearts III base game but supports the point

If we define essence, it can have a few different interpretations between like soul and concepts.

es┬Àsence /╦êesəns/ the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

Even if you use other dictionaries, they quite closely make similar remarks on essence being an indispensable quality of something such as Oxford and Cambridge

Given how this is, the heart's existence has already been established as being qualitatively superior to the body, the mind, and the soul.

Having heart destroyed means you, as an entirety, cease to exist as Chirithy has made clear.

This ties into the Nobodies still have Nonexistent Physiology Type 2 as well

But overall, it being called the essence of people means that it is the most important quality. Most important quality would obviously mean it's a greater value, as we had mentioned multiple times beforehand.

None of this "the heart is only 1/3 of your being" headcanons.

And given how statements of gaining hearts allow you to exist as referenced on the previous thread with Saix saying that the Organization members could become existent with them, this only conclusively shows that they are Type 2 beings.

This also supports the fact that the Conceptual Manipulation via strikes should stay because in that instance, the fact the heart is the essence of someone from Xehanort's own words and the game says it was essence being destroyed is enough to show it's literally the heart.

And before this gets brought up because I've seen it be asked "Why don't nobodies immediately vanish then if they have that?" We've already established why, they don't have hearts, meaning it wouldn't remotely affect them like that to begin with. Type 2 NEP details it.

As we can see, the nature of the "heart" fits nicely with such (for example, "destroying the heart (concept) of someone" and thus "destroying someone" fits for such perfectly, as it is downright from existence, as we can see with Nobodies already being agreed on to have Nonexistent Physiology, which is due to a lack of a "heart")

For the Abstract part:

"Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."

This is consistent as we all know that when a Nobody is destroyed and its heart is free, the being will come back to a whole whenever it happens where the latter happened (not combat applicable, this is an actual mechanic in-verse) Light and darkness were accepted as being concepts as they make up all of existence by the above in Kingdom Hearts, which makes it a type 3 concept, but there is evidence that makes it a type 2 concept.

For Kingdom Hearts itself to be brought forth, it needs to be summoned by a higher dimensional clash forged from the X-Blade. Xehanort, space-time was used as a portal to push him and the X-Blade out of the world for a time due to him 'transcending space and time'. The result is Scala Ad Caelum, the place where Kingdom Hearts resides. This shows that the thing that created all light, and is the embodiment of all light, exists above and isn't bound by the universe.

"2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."

The current definition of a False Platonic falls under what can make light and darkness type 2 concepts. Bringing up another thread, Chaos in Castlevania was accepted as being a type 2 concept for predating the universe, which Kingdom Hearts, light, and darkness were stated to have existed before.

From this, everyone that holds a "heart" holds type 2 Abstract Existence by being reliant in a type 2 concept, among other things that will get developed in further detail below:

Nobody Type 2 NEP:
This isn't exactly an addition, but a clarification. Nobodies are a Type 2 NEP as they lack the concepts that make up existence in KH (Light and Darkness, if the main thing above gets accepted), which is what explicitly makes them non existent in the first place, with both their soul and body fading from the Realm of Light after having their heart taken. The NEP page even states that beings who are non existent on a conceptual level can qualify for it.

"2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."

Bolding "typically" because as we discussed with Cal at Discord, that's not an actual requirement for the same reason being FTL doesn't make you High 3-A by itself, verse mechanics are verse mechanics, after all, as I'm sure someone will complain of this eventually otherwise.

Mid-Godly/High-Godly Regenerationn and Regen Negation:
Heartless used to have Mid-Godly Regenerationn from being able to come back by being reliant in the concept (Darkness is a concept that makes up existence) of darkness/"heart", this is fairly straightforward as this is mostly based on the main part above on the concept stuff and some other things, here's some scans and statements as I know everyone will be in doubt:

Marluxia states stuff
Marluxia explains noob Roxas
Heartless source
Screenshot 20200207-194240 Samsung Internet

As we can see from the above, Heartless are tied to the darkness and can come back from it, be it Pureblood or Emblem

Now, from here we can obviously tell that if this is also accepted, Keyblade Wielders get Mid-Godly Regenerationn Negation as the Keyblade can negate the Heartless from coming back, which we all know is a plot point across nearly the whole series.

As for Vanitas and his High-Godly Regen, the Vanitas Remnant is fairly self-explanatory, after having his "heart" destroyed out of the clash with Ventus, Vanitas Remnant is what was left out of his emotions, think Lingering Will, but Regen, as we all know a "Heart" is needed to be able to exist, so coming back in this fashion falls as such per definition.

As Xehanort gets all powers from the true Organization XIII as he fused with them at around KHIII (Which was accepted before in another CRT), this also extends to Xehanort getting High-Godly regen.

Immortalities on Heartless and Regenerationn Negation:
Okay, we still remember Heartless having back then type 3 Immortality out of the Regenerationn, and the Keyblade negates it, so by extension the Keyblade would get the ability to also negate that type of Regenerationn, fairly straightforward as this is also something reliant on the main thing of concepts in KH and all of that.

Intangibility and interaction with Heartless by NPI:
Okay, this was accepted before IIRC, but that has to be checked too to avoid further complaints.

Heartless are known to only be able to be harmed by the Keyblade as they can't be harmed by conventional attacks (Like at KHI when Sora couldn't even harm them as his hits from his wood sword just phazed across them), by extension, only stuff that has NPI to hit abstract entities (As Keyblades destroy the "darkness") can harm them, among other things/beings.

Conceptual attacks and that stuff:
This is based on Xehanort conceptually killing Kairi with his base Keyblade, which he even states that isn't different from any other Keyblade, Chirithy even explains that when Sora bringed back the Guardians of Light he restored them after having their "hearts" being erased from existence (Also supporting Heartless having conceptual attacks, of which a good chunk of the lore points of Heartless having a lot of relationship with "hearts" anyways) While we are on that, Heartless and Keyblade WIelders can not only affect "regular" hearts of any subject, but also the "heart" of each "World", which is every single heart from that world into a single large one. Affecting that affects the entirety of the world on the same fashion, which is actually the entire plot of KHI as we all know.

Summary (Aka, in a nutshell):
- Everyone that holds a "heart" (Aka, literally the whole verse but Nobodies) gets Abstract Existence by being reliant on the "heart" of the respective subject.

- Heartless get Mid-Godly Regenerationn once more, Vanitas and Xehanort get back High-Gofly Regenerationn and Keyblade Wielders also get back Mid-Godly Regenerationn Negation

- Non-Physical Interaction from hitting "Abstract" entities (Heartless) comes back (All Keyblade Wielders, Donald, Goofy and many more)

- Conceptual Manipulation and Resistance to such (All Keyblade Wielders and Heartless, Resistance should extend to anyone that has fought a Keyblade Wielder or a Heartless), including also conceptual attacks.

- Immortality Negation type 3 goes back to the Keyblade Wielders profiles

- Nonexistent Physiology goes back to type 2 for Nobodies
 
- Everyone that holds a "heart" (Aka, literally the whole verse but Nobodies) gets Abstract Existence by being reliant on the "heart" of the respective subject.

No. This already got rejected hard in the last CRT. Being made out of concepts=/= being one. I'm also made of the concept of "human", but clearly that doesn't make me a concept

- Heartless get Mid-Godly Regenerationn once more, Vanitas and Xehanort get back High-Gofly Regenerationn and Keyblade Wielders also get back Mid-Godly Regenerationn Negation

Why the hell would it be Mid-Godly? It's Low-Godly at best considering they still need their hearts to come back. If Vanitas Remnants is what was left of his emotions, then that simply means that some of his emotions survived. Simple as that. Keyblade Wielders getting Low-Godly Regenerationn is fine though

- Non-Physical Interaction from hitting "Abstract" entities (Heartless) comes back (All Keyblade Wielders, Donald, Goofy and many more)

Heartless are intangible as shown in Hollow Bastion and Destiny Island in KHI. They would still get NPI, but this should be the reason, not because they're "abstract".

- Conceptual Manipulation and Resistance to such (All Keyblade Wielders and Heartless, Resistance should extend to anyone that has fought a Keyblade Wielder or a Heartless), including also conceptual attacks.

The only thing in KH that has conceptual manipulation (of light and darkness) is just Kingdom Hearts, which would have killed everyone anyway. Keyblades don't have any conceptual manipulation, nor is there any character in the series (that isn't a Nobody) that can actually resist it

- Immortality Negation type 3 goes back to the Keyblade Wielders profiles

That's just called "Regenerationn negation", this is redundant

- Nonexistent Physiology goes back to type 2 for Nobodies

Lacking the concepts of Light and Darkness is different from completely lacking concepts. At best, nobodies get limited resistance to conceptual manipulation of light and darkness from lacking these concepts, but that's it.
 
I agree with everything

Nobodies lacks the concept of existence itself,the heart, they defy all logic in the verse


Hearts being abstraction, i agree, not only the heart os different from the soul but it is made by 2 concepts(light and darkness) and one heart being shatter is refer as being "conceptualy in pieces" or "fading from existence"

Mid godly stuff, agree, heartless being capable of regenerating from their heart(which is different from the Soul) also Vanitas Remnant regenerate even from his heart,meaning his essence, being destroy


NPI agree, no need to explain that

Being able to destroy the heartless, who are tied to the concept of darkness, shold give the keyblade wielders conceptual manipulation over darkness,also keyblade wielder can shatter someone hearts,which is someome essence
 
TriforcePower1 said:
- Everyone that holds a "heart" (Aka, literally the whole verse but Nobodies) gets Abstract Existence by being reliant on the "heart" of the respective subject.

No. This already got rejected hard in the last CRT. Being made out of concepts=/= being one. I'm also made of the concept of "human", but clearly that doesn't make me a concept

- Heartless get Mid-Godly Regenerationn once more, Vanitas and Xehanort get back High-Gofly Regenerationn and Keyblade Wielders also get back Mid-Godly Regenerationn Negation

Why the hell would it be Mid-Godly? It's Low-Godly at best considering they still need their hearts to come back. If Vanitas Remnants is what was left of his emotions, then that simply means that some of his emotions survived. Simple as that. Keyblade Wielders getting Low-Godly Regenerationn is fine though

- Non-Physical Interaction from hitting "Abstract" entities (Heartless) comes back (All Keyblade Wielders, Donald, Goofy and many more)

Heartless are intangible as shown in Hollow Bastion and Destiny Island in KHI. They would still get NPI, but this should be the reason, not because they're "abstract".

- Conceptual Manipulation and Resistance to such (All Keyblade Wielders and Heartless, Resistance should extend to anyone that has fought a Keyblade Wielder or a Heartless), including also conceptual attacks.

The only thing in KH that has conceptual manipulation (of light and darkness) is just Kingdom Hearts, which would have killed everyone anyway. Keyblades don't have any conceptual manipulation, nor is there any character in the series (that isn't a Nobody) that can actually resist it

- Immortality Negation type 3 goes back to the Keyblade Wielders profiles

That's just called "Regenerationn negation", this is redundant

- Nonexistent Physiology goes back to type 2 for Nobodies

Lacking the concepts of Light and Darkness is different from completely lacking concepts. At best, nobodies get limited resistance to conceptual manipulation of light and darkness from lacking these concepts, but that's it.
You haven't actually addressed what Bosican has brought up as evidence in the OP.
 
Nehz XZX said:
You haven't actually addressed what Bosican has brought up as evidence in the OP.
Dude, he is countering the points made with the evidence, that is what addressing the evidence means.

Also from my perspective the heart thing just sounds like type 8 immortality reliant on the heart, do we even know how quickly they come back?
 
Not that i remember though it takes a long time for it. Nobodies of the Organization took at least 10 years to developp a new heart and for most of them, it was more o a shadow of a heart rather than an actual heart. I guess Xemnas's influence limited them from growing it since he made sure they would focus on getting KH but even without this, it took a long time before their heart re-appeared (for those who regained it).

About the Heartless, they're not mere creatures born from the Darkness, they're Darkness itself in the form of creatures. So i'm not against considering they're kind of a concept.
 
So if they get the mid-godly it should be mentioned that it is non-combat applicable. Darkness is only 1 concept unless you are saying that each of them are a seperate Darkness concept which them clashed with type 2 conceptual manipulation.
 
Dude, he is countering the points made with the evidence, that is what addressing the evidence means.

Also from my perspective the heart thing just sounds like type 8 immortality reliant on the heart, do we even know how quickly they come back?

For the most part TriforcePower1 only addresses the points in the summary. He does mention that Abstract Existence was rejected in the past but he doesn't exactly explain why which isn't good since many of his points rely on that statement. This thread is for discussing so I think that he should elaborate on the points that led to it getting rejected for everyone who participates in this thread.

The points in the summary did result from the evidence that was presented which is why the evidence itself needs to be addressed for the points to be refuted and not just the points from the summary. He has to show that the evidence doesn't justify the points in the summary.

Regarding your question of how fast the Heartless come back, the OP has a link that shows the Heartless coming back from hearts that were released after Kingdom Hearts was damaged by Ansem the Wise's machine.
 
Yes, the Regenerationn of Heartless appears to be combat applicable in conventional situations (As we all know that Keyblades aren't that common even in-verse).

Now, I've also updated the OP to explain further how "Light" and "Darkness" are the abstract concepts that make up existence in KH.
 
1:

"Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it." - Abstract Existence

Chirithy even says that "Death" is the natural outcome for those which body and "heart" perish together

2:

Mid-Godly comes because they are reliant on a concept to come back, which qualifies for Mid-Godly Regenerationn per definition, as we could see in the discussion on the Regenerationn changes.

3:

Keyblades destroy the "concept" of darkness when attacking Heartless, which is why when they are destroyed no remains are left but the "heart".

4:

Keyblades can manipulate "darkness", "light" and "hearts", as we all know, read the OP once more as I elaborated further into that.

5:

It may be redundant, but it still qualifies.

6:

As stated in the OP, you need the concepts of "Light" and "Darkness" to conventionally exist, so per definition they entirely lack a concept, they (Nobodies) are constantly being treated as nonexistent beings.
 
Xehanort1307 It's beyond that, they're literally non-existent. Tricky to explain but in short, they have a body but this body is "made" of nonexistence.
 
1) That doesn't counter what Triforce said. Just because the heart itself is abstract, doesn't mean people in KH in general are abstract. The concept of "Human" example still works here. At most this is Type 8 and even then, I do not remember someone just coming back without outside help from their heart.

2) You know, just because a Nonexistent perso is destroyed and they return, it doesn't make it automatically Mid Godly. And going by the scans, this is not Mid-Godly, just Type 8 reliant Immortality. Vanitas' survival is a bit iffy to me, I'll wait on staff input here once I highlight it.

3) We really need to stop throwing out the word "concept" everywhere. Right now, it's NPI, but I am not sold on it being abstract and more Nonexistent.

4) Pretty sure even Sera denied him killing Kairi. I don't see what's so different from the first time here.

Can't go into detail fully on these points at this point in time so they are incomplete. Conceptual shit as a whole is more annoying for me to evaluate as that's not my strong suit hence why I steer away from KH conceptual shit seeing as I personally feel we abuse this concept shit to get upgrades these days. I'll highlight the thread for staff input.
 
Yeah, that's why I said that the conceptual stuff has to be accepted first, so that should be the main focus, the rest is assuming that got accepted, so to avoid this turning into a mess, please discuss more regarding the "heart", "light" and "darkness" being abstract stuff.

Anyways, @Dragonmasterxyz

1: They are tied to the concept of their own "heart", which is what allows them ("them" being anyone with a "heart") to exist, and it's not combat applicable for the most part as unlike those verses you may be thinking of, vessels to fill the "heart" in aren't just something that can be done with reality warping or stuff like that by the verse's standards, which is why you see in KHIII Naminé being able to come back with only her "heart" by entering a vessel with Sora's help, for example, alongside the whole Replica Project.

2: Oh no, Mid-Godly is only for Heartless, Nobodies will just keep it as type 8 immortality for the reasons you said.

3: As said before, this is mostly reliant on the "heart" and "darkness" being abstract and that stuff, Nobodies being intangible already got accepted, but that's a separate kind of NPI regardless, so please focus on the former unless you want to argue the Nobody one also being questionable.

4: IIRC it was originally only for "No Name" wielders, but it's different here as now it's via scaling.
 
Dragonmasterxyz seems to make sense.
 
1) This I have an issue with. Why are we using "concept" to refer to a heart? Honestly, this doesn't even seem like Type 8. Hearts allow you to exist. While it's not actually the soul, it's still no different than a human needing their soul to exist or a more fictional example, a Digimon needing their Digicore (their entire essence) to exist. That doesn't warrant anything. People need to stop throwing around conceptual for everything...

2) Even then, for Hearless this seems as nothing more than Type 8 as they comeback reliant on darkness. This isn't Mid-Godly, just reliant immortality.

3) Let's talk about this "Darkness being abstract" actually. Just because Heartless themselves are tied to the Darkness =/= make them abstract. I am gonna need you to give me a TL;DR on how Heartless are "abstract" in themselves beyond being reliant on Darkness.

4) No, she flat out went against Kairi's death being legit and even moreso on it being conceptual in nature. In fact these conceptual arguments are really not much different from the crap brought up here and I still agree with these rebuttals.
 
I'd like to also question something the OP brought up: Marluxia says:

1. "The rest of us can defeat Heartless, but we have no way of collecting the hearts they release." and

2. "Eventually, the hearts will turn right back into Heartless."

And other scans say (Bolding for emphasis.)

1. "Heartless: One without a heart is darkness born from the recurring darkness. The embodiment of the darkness in one's heart which appears when a person's heart is lost to darkness. They have no knowledge or will, they simply run on dark instinct and go after the Hearts of Worlds as well as try to steal hearts from those with them in order to become greater in numbers." and

2. "Pure Blood: "These Heartless come into existence naturally. If they are defeated with a Keyblade, the heart will be liberated. Many of the Heartless in the world are these."

There is a whole Realm of Darkness where Heartless seem to spawn from, without end, & I'm unclear on how finite the RoD is, but even in the other realms, Heartless always appear in large numbers AND will readily take any Heart, because that's how new Heartless are created.

So how do we know that if a Heartless is slain by non-Keyblade means, the Heartless that come about from the freed Heart are the SAME Heartless?

If Heartless #1 dies in a supernova or whatever, its heart gets freed, & Heartless #2 spawns from the Heart that Heartless #1 was using, how are we sure it was Heartless #1 Regenerating & not a new Heartless using the Heart that Heartless #1 lost?

(And yes, footage does depict Heartless seizing the freed Hearts fairly quickly after their release, but this also happens in The World That Never Was, which was at least close to the Darkness of Kingdom Hearts, & possibly the RoD itself; Heartless would spawn there much more readily than say, in the Realm of Light. So they do respawn fast, but I'm not sure what it proves about how their location is after slaying & a new heart is claimed, nor if it proves the Heartless appearing are old ones regenerating or new members of the horde.)
 
1: I'll elaborate further on "hearts" being of abstract nature as it seems you didn't get properly enought the explanations at the OP; because any being in KH can come back from just a "heart", which qualifies as type 2 AE, it not being virtually combat applicable as they need a "vessel"/body to go back to normal or else becoming a Heartless doesn't mean that anyone with a "heart" can't qualify for type 2 AE:

"Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it." - Abstract Existence

Chirithy even says that "Death" is the natural outcome for those which body and "heart" perish together

As we all know, a being with only a "heart" can go between multiple vessels this is why Luxu/Xigbar managed to stay alive for a countless amount of time in a ton of different vessels, then again, that falls as type 6 immortality, and I never said anything about them getting immortality type 8 from it, so the rest is up to debate and I'm neutral on what this may be, but I still think it can't just be absolutely nothing to take note of in profiles.

Now, for the "heart", please check again, Chirithy was very explicit and all of this is consistent with the setting and the lore, I would like you to pinpoint everything you disagree regarding this.

2: How is reliant Immortality not correlated to Regenerationn exactly?

3: Heartless are made of "hearts" after being corrupted in darkness, beyond that, they qualified for type 2 AE as their entire nature isn't abstract as we all know, so NPI by being able to hit beings that can become intangible, rather than entire "abstract" entities is fine by me, for now at least.

4: I would like you showing such scans, as IIRC Sora only meeted Naminé before the Kairi stuff happening, including also the time travel variant of Re:Mind.

And as said before, Chirithy (Who is far more knowledgeable on this) states otherwise.
 
I am with Dragon here he understand this level of hax better than I do so his explanations are far better than mine.
 
Imaginym said:
So how do we know that if a Heartless is slain by non-Keyblade means, the Heartless that come about from the freed Heart are the SAME Heartless?

If Heartless #1 dies in a supernova or whatever, its heart gets freed, & Heartless #2 spawns from the Heart that Heartless #1 was using, how are we sure it was Heartless #1 Regenerating & not a new Heartless using the Heart that Heartless #1 lost?

(And yes, footage does depict Heartless seizing the freed Hearts fairly quickly after their release, but this also happens in The World That Never Was, which was at least close to the Darkness of Kingdom Hearts, & possibly the RoD itself; Heartless would spawn there much more readily than say, in the Realm of Light. So they do respawn fast, but I'm not sure what it proves about how their location is after slaying & a new heart is claimed, nor if it proves the Heartless appearing are old ones regenerating or new members of the horde.)
Simple, the "heart" is always of an specific subject, so if it turns into a Heartless, the Heartless is destroyed by conventional means and it turns back into a Heartless, it's still the same "heart" as the one of the start.
 
@Bobsician: How do we know the "Heart" is always of an specific subject, though? Is there anything that prevents different darkness seizing the same Heart?
 
1) No, then that is simply Type 8. You are skipping the first portion here. They do not "embody" a heart, they simply have a heart. By the logic you are using, anyone with Type 8 should get Type 2 Abstract Existence which is not going to fly.

"Type 2: Embodies an abstractio, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."

2) Regenerationn is you coming back by your own regenerative factor. Reliant Immortality is coming back via an outside force. It's quite simple.

4) What are you talking about? How does this change whether Kairi died or not. Also Chirithy saying that changes literally nothing. She was saying to to Sora iirc who was in fact killed. However, to quote Sera herself.

"More importantly, when did Xehanort kill Kairi? Death occurs when the soul and the body perish together. It's stated in KH3 itself. Xion even tells Sora she still feels Kairi's heart. She wasn't killed, not in the way death works in the Kingdom Hearts universe.

If Kaira actually died, Sora would not have been able to bring her back since the Power of Waking isn't for reviving people from death. (It's also not for restoring hearts but it can be used to do so).

Yen Sid describes the Power of Waking as "the power to free a heart from its sleep".

The Power of Waking is used to awaken sleeping hearts (for example, Ventus). Riku and Mickey also use it to try and save Aqua from the Realm of Darkness. It can also be used to restore hearts (apparently this involves time travel or time reversal), but according to Young Xehanort and later Mickey, it's not supposed to be used for that and continuously using it in that way comes at a heavy price. Such price is becoming lost yourself, hence why Sora disappeared from his world and winded up in Shibuya (in the Yozora world).

The Keyblade is all about hearts. What Xehanort did was expel Kairi's heart from her body to provoke Sora. Xion outright tells Sora she can still feel Kairi's heart. Kairi was not killed in any way. Death in Kingdom Hearts requires the body and heart perish at the same time. We know Kairi's body disappeared but her heart was still around. She became a wandering heart, thus why Sora used the Power of Waking to restore her body.

Xehanort did not kill Kairi, especially not on a "conceptual level"."
 
Chirithy on the subject of Kairi's heart says

Chirithy: Even with the power of waking you can't just bring someone back.

Sora: But Kairi's heart hasn't been lost yet. She's still with us right?

C: Maybe, but this time I'm afraid the situation is a lot worse.

S: Hey, I've already restored six hearts. What's one more?

C: But that's not how it's supposed to work at all. The Power of Waking is meant to used to wake and restore sleeping hearts, not to restore them after they've completely faded away from existence. You've done that six times now.

The rest isn't needed. So in one second it can restore you from being erased and in the other it can't. Can the PoW restore erased hearts or can it not? Pick one. Also who were these "6 hearts" again my memory on the events of KH3 are pretty sloppy.
 
Dragonmasterxyz said:
Chirithy on the subject of Kairi's heart says

Chirithy: Even with the power of waking you can't just bring someone back.

Sora: But Kairi's heart hasn't been lost yet. She's still with us right?

C: Maybe, but this time I'm afraid the situation is a lot worse.

S: Hey, I've already restored six hearts. What's one more?

C: But that's not how it's supposed to work at all. The Power of Waking is meant to used to wake and restore sleeping hearts, not to restore them after they've completely faded away from existence. You've done that six times now.

The rest isn't needed. So in one second it can restore you from being erased and in the other it can't. Can the PoW restore erased hearts or can they not? Pick one. Also who were these "6 hearts" again my memory on the events of KH3 are pretty sloppy.
The six hearts are the other guardians
 
These would probably be the ones who were overwhelmed by Terra-Xehanort at the Keyblade Graveyard .The ones that were present at the time were: Sora, Donald, Goofy, Riku, Mickey, Kairi, Axel, Aqua, Ventus. Now I'm confused, these are more than six.

I interpreted the "you can't just bring someone back" as meaning you can't simply do that and everything is gonna be alright which does make sense to me due to the price of using the power of waking improperly.
 
Xehanort didn't kill Kairi. That's all I'm saying here.
 
Shouldn't we begin with whether or not hearts, light and darkness are concepts? Everything else that is suggested in the OP hinges on it. The evidence for it has already been presented in the OP so is there something that speaks against it? Please elaborate if yes.
 
Nehz XZX said:
Shouldn't we begin with whether or not hearts, light and darkness are concepts? Everything else that is suggested in the OP hinges on it. The evidence for it has already been presented in the OP so is there something that speaks against it? Please elaborate if yes.
It's less about whether the game itself speaks against it and more whether what's in the game fits within our standards. Which is what we've argued against here. Light and Darkness are not an issue. We're still going over Hearts as is.
 
Well, if hearts aren't concepts, what are they then? They are not part of the body, are treated separate from the soul and the mind and exist everywhere. As what would the ability to manipulate hearts qualify?
 
What would manipulating an essence qualify as? What sort of ability would we list in the Powers and Abilities section?
 
To be quite honest, we've never had "Essence Manipulation" on site due to it not really being needed before.
 
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