Record of Ragnarok: Whatever the hell happened to this verse

[Axxtentacle]

it's much more likely that Ares and co not being able to react to it because it stopped/massivelly slowed down comparaed to saying TFTST >>> Adamas despite the latter being Zeus' ultimate tecnique

base Zeus, before even going into his muscle/gorilla state, completely blitzed Ares. So unless you think Zeus in an actual fight, in his gorilla or Adamas state is slower than his tiny old man state, this argument doesn’t add up

 

[Axxtentacle]

it’s also stated that by more than just Brunhilde that this attack actually would’ve killed Adam if it hit him, giving it more credence (Hermes, for exmaple)

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Ares only got blitzed when he was exhausted and about to get body slammed by Herc. Zeus only “blitzed” a guy far from his top condition and completely focused on someone else. In the arena, he is solely focused on Zeus and Adam. The two situations are not close to being equivalent.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

... that argument still doesn't work because Adam had such a hard time against Adamas while TFTST wasn't any threat.

He didn't really have a hard time, he only started to get difficult once his limit was approaching

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Well, it forced him to start going on the defense rather than just dodging and countering everything with 0 trouble.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Well, it forced him to start going on the defense rather than just dodging and countering everything with 0 trouble.

Yes, when his nose started bleeding he could still dodge and counter but when he went blind is when zeus got him

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ares only got blitzed when he was exhausted and about to get body slammed by Herc. Zeus only “blitzed” a guy far from his top condition and completely focused on someone else. In the arena, he is solely focused on Zeus and Adam. The two situations are not close to being equivalent.

I didn’t remember this happening, but doesn’t this imply that Ares and Herc should be comparable? I may be wrong, my memory’s iffy, but Ares got weakened by Herc, correct? As far as I know, Herc doesn’t even remotely compare to Zeus, it doesn’t seem to work. I could be mistaken/misremembering though, and if I am, correct me.

 

[Overlord775]

@InfiniteDay

"First that surpassed time" is because of Zeus killing Chronus (Time), not speed

@Hl3_or_bust

so unless you say that Adamas is Infinite speed too, then the fist can't be infinite speed

@Axxtentacle

...I already disproved this by proving that Brunhilde isn’t a good source information, meaning that the “strain” adam experienced just doesn’t make sense.

AAAAND the one who said that the first manipulates time wasn't Brunhilde

No, it’s saying it could likely be correct, and either way it’s still before this entire section of the debate happened, so it’s more logical to just get his opinion considering counter arguments and things that have happened since.

you don't know Ant, do you ? That's the way he agrees to stuff

This is just headcanon, he shows no strain until after consistently dodging these attacks for minutes, his eyes are just being consistently used for extended periods of time

Zeus' very first punch drew blood, showing it's speed is far greater than anything else before

the stance means nothing, I already gave my argument against this

Entering a stance ment that he felt threatened

And in this case, the context is that they’re just getting faster and faster. I don’t see why you keep using this argument, it just doesn’t make sense for it not to be out of speed since everything prior has been out of speed.

everything beforehand was just Zeus flexing, as seen by the fact that when Adamas came the timer was thrown out of the window entirely

Adam wasn’t coloured until he started moving again, and the last time we see him before he counters, he’s not coloured and it appears he’s in shock from the attack. He either moved IN the time stop to counter with his own punch, which he is implied to do since he hadn’t gone into his punch stance yet, or it just wasn’t a time stop.

Adam simply pulled a JoJo and coutered effects of the time stop, it's not really a farfetched concept

This argument doesn’t make sense unless you assume it’s already right from the start, which is a fallacy. I don’t see why it keeps coming up, it just doesn’t work.

don't go throwing around accusations bud.

 

[Overlord775]

Going off how the story goes, Infinite Speed (possibly with temporary stat amplification as energy is shown coming to Zeus’ fist) makes more sense.

the scene litterally doesn't work with just infinite speed, as the way stuff is show is completly incompatilble with it

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

How is it incompatible? (And dont say "well it changed color")

Since the start of the whole fight all it has done is demonstrate how fast both are

 

[Overlord775]

see how the slowdown and speedup of everything being through waves of sorts

also, no, the start of the fight was Zeus flexing on/testing Adam

 

[Axxtentacle]

AAAAND the one who said that the first manipulates time wasn't Brunhilde

...I never said Brunhilde said that. I quite literally never said Brunhilde said that, you misconstrued my argument.

Zeus' very first punch drew blood, showing it's speed is far greater than anything else before

punches after this didn’t even hit, so it’s an outlier

Entering a stance ment that he felt threatened

yeah, but the reasoning wasn’t physical strength, as the Omniscient Narrator said, Adamas Zeus gave off a kind of malevolent aura

everything beforehand was Zeus flexing, as seen by the fact that when Adamas came the timer was thrown out of the window

flexing his physical abilities without getting serious, also literally i’ve argued why TFTST likely has some kind of amplification for the use of the move, you’ve just ignored it every time i’ve mentioned it

Adam simply pulled a JoJo and coutered effects of the time stop, it's not really a farfetched concept

...or Adam simply copied the a technique that amplifies stats when it’s used

don't go throwinng around accusations bud.

literally every bit of evidence you’ve given only works if it was actually time stop, and the context of the story implies physical abilities

 

[Axxtentacle]

see how the slowdown and speedup of everything being through waves of sorts

also, no, the start of the fight was Zeus flexing on/testing Adam

what waves? all we see is Zeus charging a punch and seemingly drawing in some kind of energy, throwing a punch, colours being reverted, then Adam countering with his own punch.

Also, artistic choices

 

[Overlord775]

...I never said Brunhilde said that. I quite literally never said Brunhilde said that, you misconstrued my argument.

and you responded very poorly to my previous point

punches after this didn’t even hit, so it’s an outlier

Very much not an outlier, as it mirrors what happeed at the beginning of the fight, where Zeus's first punch torn apart a buch of Adam's hair

IMO, the fact that Adam dodging all following hits is ecause of him adjusting to mach Zeus' new peek of speed

yeah, but the reasoning wasn’t physical strength, as the Omniscient Narrator said, Adamas Zeus gave off a kind of malevolent aura

the narrator doesn't say that it has a "Malevolent Aura", it says nothing about why people are scared shitless of it

though, the characters do say it's more of just pressure/threat, though their reliability of their words is not much

flexing his physical abilities without getting serious, also literally i’ve argued why TFTST likely has some kind of amplification for the use of the move, you’ve just ignored it every time i’ve mentioned it

TFTST is him pulling baby gloves off, also tecnically speed since slowing down/stopping time makes everything slower than yourself

i didn't, i had adressed it but it seems you are the one ignoring stuff

it can't be time accell, because otherwise there wouldn't be any outward "wave"

...or Adam simply copied the a technique that amplifies stats when it’s used

which can't be, because otherwise the timeframe would have returned to normal the second he snapped Zeus' neck

literally every bit of evidence you’ve given only works if it was actually time stop, and the context of the story implies physical abilities

litterally every bit of evidence you've given only works if it was actually Infinite speed, and the story itself litterally says it's time manipulation

what waves? all we see is Zeus charging a punch and seemingly drawing in some kind of energy, throwing a punch, colours being reverted, then Adam countering with his own punch.

Therse waves

also Zeus is not drawing in energy, he's drawing out energy.

Also, artistic choices

you are going to need to provide proof for that being the case

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I just want to downgrade the AP man.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

As I said before, the attack is clearly carried out by manipulation of time, the scenarios that I proposed are:
1) Zeus makes time start to move slowly for everyone except him, time slows down to such a degree that it seems to stop, in that world of slow time only Zeus can move normally since he is the one who exercises the ability
2) Zeus stop time but it is not an instantaneous Stop Time, Zeus ironically requires time for his technique to be effective and time to freeze completely, being the only one who is not affected by being the one who exercises the technique
arguments that clearly indicate that it was time manipulation:
-Zeus I obtained this technique from his father, the god and persinification of TIME, this means that Chronus could also use it, he used it to pull out Zeus's teeth

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

3. They actually moved that fast

 

[Axxtentacle]

and you responded very poorly to my previous point

what point are you referring to?

Very much not an outlier, as it mirrors what happeed at the beginning of the fight, where Zeus's first punch torn apart a buch of Adam's hair

wow, inconsistencies in characters’ abilities for the sake of a cool looking fight? didn’t know those weren’t possible

IMO, the fact that Adam dodging all following hits is ecause of him adjusting to mach Zeus' new peek of speed

...or an outlier, since that’s pure headcanon

the narrator doesn't say that it has a "Malevolent Aura", it says nothing about why people are scared shitless of it

I remember it more clearly now, it’s something along the lines of “Like a malevolent being has just been born”

though, the characters do say it's more of just pressure/threat, though their reliability of their words is not much

the only person whose words were really unreliable were Brunhilde and the little girl Valkryie, the narrator says this

TFTST is him pulling baby gloves off, also tecnically speed since slowing down/stopping time makes everything slower than yourself

so you don’t think he was going for the kill or anything beforehand?

i didn't, i had adressed it but it seems you are the one ignoring stuff

literally when did you address it? you never quoted that part of any message I brought it up in

it can't be time accell, because otherwise there wouldn't be any outward "wave"

I didn’t argue time accell, I argued that time was perceived to go slower based on speed.
also, if Zeus was using Stat Amplification, which is likely by his showing of energy being harnessed for the attack, as he got to the point of being able to throw this attack at Infinite speed, would it not have a similar effect to an actual time stop? Also, Adam counters after he’s seemingly stopped in time, as he’s blacked out, standing upright without being in an offensive stance. If he countered at “the last possible second” then he literally would’ve countered after already being frozen in time, which is pretty much contradicted by Hermes stating that he countered before the punch was thrown, despite, y’know, the time freeze effect happening before the punch was actually thrown

which can't be, because otherwise the timeframe would have returned to normal the second he snapped Zeus' neck

if it was time stop used by Zeus, which Adam just moved in, wouldn’t the time stop have dissipated the moment that Zeus was knocked unconscious?

litterally every bit of evidence you've given only works if it was actually Infinite speed, and the story itself litterally says it's time manipulation

no, it literally doesn’t, the story implies that they’re getting faster and faster throughout the fight, it also isn’t confirmed time manipulation, it’s implied at best. The move was hyped up by “The mere mention of it’s name is SAID to exert control over time itself”. I don’t remember this wiki using rumors as feats.

Therse waves

also Zeus is not drawing in energy, he's drawing out energy.

Isn’t energy literally gathering in his fist? Isn’t there also a visual aura that goes to his fist before he throws the attack?
In regards to the visual effect, I don’t see how that proves time stop. It could just be the characters

you are going to need to provide proof for that being the case

proof that it’s visual effects? Were things like the darkening of the sky in Sasaki Kojiro’s fight some kind of light manipulation since it only happened when Sasaki focused, or does Sasaki also have time manipulation since during his scanning of all existence, Poseidon didn’t attack him? Does Jack The Ripper have some kind of Illusion Creation since a partially see through image of him was shown during his fight with hercules, when it’s revealed what his actual Volund is? It’s the same logic

 

[InfiniteDay]

As I said before, the attack is clearly carried out by manipulation of time, the scenarios that I proposed are:
1) Zeus makes time start to move slowly for everyone except him, time slows down to such a degree that it seems to stop, in that world of slow time only Zeus can move normally since he is the one who exercises the ability
2) Zeus stop time but it is not an instantaneous Stop Time, Zeus ironically requires time for his technique to be effective and time to freeze completely, being the only one who is not affected by being the one who exercises the technique
arguments that clearly indicate that it was time manipulation:
-Zeus I obtained this technique from his father, the god and persinification of TIME, this means that Chronus could also use it, he used it to pull out Zeus's teeth

Ya and being the personification of time means and all that means that controlling time is something you can do. Does that mean every attack you use is time manipulation? No, absolutely not.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Ya and being the personification of time means and all that means that controlling time is something you can do. Does that mean every attack you use is time manipulation? No, absolutely not.

I thought it would be obvious by now that the name of the technique is a show of respect for his father’s fighting ability, but I guess not

 

[Axxtentacle]

I just want to downgrade the AP man.

the AP part makes sense, I don’t know what to say about the “Collapse the universe” thing though. I guess i’ll just leave that into the hands of others, as that’s not the part I wanted to debate anyway

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I thought it would be obvious by now that the name of the technique is a show of respect for his father’s fighting ability, but I guess not

I brought that up earlier about how they said that it was name to show respect but it got ignored

 

[Axxtentacle]

Exactly, the rumor is based on the name

 

[InfiniteDay]

6-B feat of a average god sustaining the ganges river

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

6-B feat of a average god sustaining the ganges river

Hmm, idk the numbers look a little sus

 

[Aridwolverine]

I agree with infinite speed based on the context of the fight. The whole context of that scene was that Zeus was holding back initially and starts getting faster and faster as he gets serious. Eventually, he goes so fast he physically can't get any faster, reaching infinite speed.

 

[LightReinh12345]

I disagree with Infinite speed
Cause I saw this in a TV show (i know that is maybe not relevant to this but I am still saying this)where birds were stopped, the Background & the User stated it was a time stop but here the only difference is it happened in "0.00000.............. " Something like that which does not feel like actual infinite , more like a very very small time frame which cant fit into the screen
the fist could stop time which could mean "the fist surpassed time" as well (which I feel like stopping the time or more like slowing the time)

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Hmm, idk the numbers look a little sus

It was accepted by a calc member, so yeah, they are going to be 6-B minimum

 

[Overlord775]

what point are you referring to?

the fact that you responded about Brunhilde when i was talking aout the narrator

wow, inconsistencies in characters’ abilities for the sake of a cool looking fight? didn’t know those weren’t possible

...or an outlier, since that’s pure headcanon

1 showing it's an outlier, but there's two instances of Adam being almost hit

also, Adam's ability is to copy the gods with his eyes, so it's very much not headcanon to say he would need to see Adamas in action to match it's speed

I remember it more clearly now, it’s something along the lines of “Like a malevolent being has just been born”

which isn't the same as a "aura"

the only person whose words were really unreliable were Brunhilde and the little girl Valkryie, the narrator says this

i ment the comment about the pressure that Ares says

so you don’t think he was going for the kill or anything beforehand?

He was planning to kill Adam, but he wasn't going seriusly as he underestimated him

literally when did you address it? you never quoted that part of any message I brought it up in

https://vsbattles.com/threads/recor...ened-to-this-verse.109478/page-4#post-3457171

I didn’t argue time accell, I argued that time was perceived to go slower based on speed.
also, if Zeus was using Stat Amplification, which is likely by his showing of energy being harnessed for the attack, as he got to the point of being able to throw this attack at Infinite speed, would it not have a similar effect to an actual time stop? Also, Adam counters after he’s seemingly stopped in time, as he’s blacked out, standing upright without being in an offensive stance. If he countered at “the last possible second” then he literally would’ve countered after already being frozen in time, which is pretty much contradicted by Hermes stating that he countered before the punch was thrown, despite, y’know, the time freeze effect happening before the punch was actually thrown

again, energy is being sent OUT, not in

if it was Infinite speed, then Adamas would scale, which unless we threat the spectators being able to watch as PIS [which tbf would be a fair point] it would make no sense

The wind up is part of the punch, also the eyes could just you know, be able to work while time is stopped or just have copied the punch as Zeus began it as Adam has in fact reacted to it

if it was time stop used by Zeus, which Adam just moved in, wouldn’t the time stop have dissipated the moment that Zeus was knocked unconscious?

The time stop happened in a "wave" and disappeared in the same way

no, it literally doesn’t, the story implies that they’re getting faster and faster throughout the fight, it also isn’t confirmed time manipulation, it’s implied at best. The move was hyped up by “The mere mention of it’s name is SAID to exert control over time itself”. I don’t remember this wiki using rumors as feats.

Hype
From the goddamn Omniscient narrator

yeah, you have no basis to say that's just hype

also the "rumor" + the fact that it comes from the personification of time + the way it looks makes a pretty clear picture

Isn’t energy literally gathering in his fist? Isn’t there also a visual aura that goes to his fist before he throws the attack?
In regards to the visual effect, I don’t see how that proves time stop. It could just be the characters

The energy would be going inward, not outwards, if Zeus was doing that.

WHY would it be just the characters ?

proof that it’s visual effects? Were things like the darkening of the sky in Sasaki Kojiro’s fight some kind of light manipulation since it only happened when Sasaki focused, or does Sasaki also have time manipulation since during his scanning of all existence, Poseidon didn’t attack him? Does Jack The Ripper have some kind of Illusion Creation since a partially see through image of him was shown during his fight with hercules, when it’s revealed what his actual Volund is? It’s the same logic

1. There's a very clear differece in-between what happeed with the punch and "for this one scan only the background is black"
2. It was estalished throught the entire fight how Sasaki's calculatio speed >>> his normal speed
3. that's litterally just afterimages

in neither of those three cases there's anything telling that something is happening, meanwhile for the punch the litteral momet efore it's throw the narrator says time maipulation


anyway, i feel like we could reach a middle point and like have it as Possibly infinite Speed and Possibly Time Stop

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I disagree with Infinite speed
Cause I saw this in a TV show (i know that is maybe not relevant to this but I am still saying this)where birds were stopped, the Background & the User stated it was a time stop but here the only difference is it happened in "0.00000.............. " Something like that which does not feel like actual infinite , more like a very very small time frame which cant fit into the screen
the fist could stop time which could mean "the fist surpassed time" as well (which I feel like stopping the time or more like slowing the time)

It was brought up by a mod memeber (Ultima) and it does qualify for infinite speed if that is ur question/doubt

 

[Overlord775]

appeal to authority fallacy

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

appeal to authority fallacy

What appeal to authority

Did I say that since a mod say it is infinite therefore it is? No

I said ultima explained that even tho u dont see the full 0 and it keeps going 0.00000 a feat like that still qualifies for infinite rating

 

[Creaturemaster971]

If the vote is still going on, my vote is for infinite speed

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

I think that's about like 10 votes or 11

 

[Overlord775]

@TOAAPRESENCE1

"Insisting that a claim is true simply because a valid authority or expert on the issue said it was true, without any other supporting evidence offered."

You are just blindly citing Ultima, despite the fact that the points he brough up have ee called into questio multiple times and he hasn't respoded in a long while, all because he's a staff member

which to remind you, are just as fallable as anyone else

 

[Creaturemaster971]

Though I still don't see what the problem is with using a "possibly" on the page for both. Or perhaps even a note at the bottom of the page addressing the ambiguity of the ability.

 

[InfiniteDay]

It's not a appeal to authority fallacy because they were given all information in discussion and makes a conclusion based on previous knowledge. Also, they have already given information, your argument is a Genetic Fallacy.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

It doesn't exactly seen to be attack happening in zero time, though, considering the scan shows a decimal expansion after the first digit, instead of just labelling it as "0" from the start, in which case, it'd be just a number that infinitely approaches 0 but never actually reaches it.

If that's really the case, then it'd be still an Infinite Speed feat, in my view, considering that the usual speed equation would just take the form of the limit of S = D/T as T → 0, which diverges into infinity anyway.

This is what I am talking about


Which is a neutral statement of him clarifying that a feat like that can still be considered infinite speed

And if u want to talk about Fallacy u are doing a genetic fallacy

 

[Overlord775]

It's not a appeal to authority fallacy because they were given all information in discussion and makes a conclusion based on previous knowledge. Also, they have already given information, your argument is a Genetic Fallacy.

you can't make a conclusion without listening to the other side's arguments

also

"The genetic fallacy (also known as the fallacy of origins or fallacy of virtue)[1] is a fallacy of irrelevance that is based solely on someone's or something's history, origin, or source rather than its current meaning or context. This overlooks any difference to be found in the present situation, typically transferring the positive or negative esteem from the earlier context. In other words, a claim is ignored in favor of attacking or championing its source."
"The fallacy therefore fails to assess the claim on its merit. The first criterion of a good argument is that the premises must have bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim in question.[2] Genetic accounts of an issue may be true, and they may help illuminate the reasons why the issue has assumed its present form, but they are not conclusive in determining its merits.[3] "

I'm pretty sure you two are the ones doing this by not aknologing how the thread's evolution could have disproven his points

@TOAAPRESENCE1

You do realize that the first part goes directly against the Infinite Speed ?

also, the second part aknowloges the time stop as a thing

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

How does it acknowledge it?

First part is him analyzing the feat and how it still goes on with decimals

The 2nd part is him saying

"If that's really the case, then it'd be still an Infinite Speed feat"