Record of Ragnarok: Whatever the hell happened to this verse

[Hl3_or_bust]

Except that reputation is based on something that we have absolutely no evidence is boosted by time fuckery: Zeus' natural speed. Ares outright states that basically every other god could only barely make out the shadow of Zeus' casual attacks, so one vastly faster than even those would obviously have a reputation of some kind. The comparison to time stopping makes sense given the visuals of it that we get.

Even ignoring all of that, stat amps are not implied, yes, they are outright stated. I'm not sure how Zeus' attacks would just magically get orders of magnitude faster like they did without that, unless you want to argue that it's also time manip which is yet again entirely baseless and conjecture on your part.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Do I seriously need to repeat myself about how IT ISN’T STATED TO HAVE TIME MANIPULATION, IMPLIED AT BEST? THE NARRATOR PHRASES IT IN A WAY LIKE HE’S TALKING ABOUT AN URBAN LEGEND OR A RUMOR.

I don’t understand how many times I have to repeat this. It’s just stonewalling at this point.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

When Zeus was punching in 0.01, 0.001, 0.0001 etc. sec. he wasn't actually amplifying his stats until he reached 0.00000001 secs, no, it's just that in the begining he was holding back and getting more serious as he went. It's not an actual stat amp, unless you're saying he has a base supersonic speed up to FTL with boosts.

Ares is also one of the least reliable sources of information as he's just freaking out all the time over how epic their moves are.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Except that's just objectively false. Adam copies and attacks Zeus with those techniques at the same speed he used them at, and they hit easily.

This is just an outright lie.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Then they aren't FTL in base, is what you're saying?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Yes? Nothing I said can really be interpreted any other way, and it's clear from just reading the manga.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Then that would mean that our entire speed ranking for the verse is, what, wrong af and needs fixing?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

What was that going to be anyways? I haven't been paying much attention to this thread before now. But either way, it seems to be so.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

All the gods are rated FTL from Zeus' Divine Axe which happened in 0.00000001 sec...

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

hm

I don't really know about scaling that to every other god, given how Zeus is meant to be far faster than them, with a few exceptions it seems.

If anything, I believe Sasaki's rating is fine as is, although it is wrong in that Ares wasn't surprised about Adam matching Zeus, more that he seems more surprised that Sasaki could keep up with Poseidon than Adam keeping up with Zeus.

 

[Axxtentacle]

When Zeus was punching in 0.01, 0.001, 0.0001 etc. sec. he wasn't actually amplifying his stats until he reached 0.00000001 secs, no, it's just that in the begining he was holding back and getting more serious as he went. It's not an actual stat amp, unless you're saying he has a base supersonic speed up to FTL with boosts.

Ares is also one of the least reliable sources of information as he's just freaking out all the time over how epic their moves are.

You didn’t even acknowledge my reply.

You say Ares is a bad source of information, but for the exact reasons that Brunhilde should be a bad source of information, but you used her statement about Adam having strained himself the entire battle. This is just flat hypocrisy.

Also, isn’t it basically stated that Zeus just doesn’t care about dodging? He barely ever attempts to dodge anything, and as we see, durability is blatantly what his main fighting style is. He just tanks whatever you throw at him, because he finds fights fun.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Also, isn’t it basically stated that Zeus just doesn’t care about dodging? He barely ever attempts to dodge anything, and as we see, durability is blatantly what his main fighting style is. He just tanks whatever you throw at him, because he finds fights fun.

I don't believe that's stated, and if it was it's evidently wrong, since he actually dodges Adam's first attack, even commenting that it's especially fast, before being caught by the copied Meteor Jab and Divine Axe.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

hm

I don't really know about scaling that to every other god, given how Zeus is meant to be far faster than them, with a few exceptions it seems.

If anything, I believe Sasaki's rating is fine as is, although it is wrong in that Ares wasn't surprised about Adam matching Zeus, more that he seems more surprised that Sasaki could keep up with Poseidon than Adam keeping up with Zeus.

Poseidon is one thing because IIRC he moved faster than Ares, who can see Divine Axe just fine, could keep track of, so he probably scales to the FTL calc. But what about all the other characters?

Also, what is Adam's speed?

You didn’t even acknowledge my reply.

You say Ares is a bad source of information, but for the exact reasons that Brunhilde should be a bad source of information, but you used her statement about Adam having strained himself the entire battle. This is just flat hypocrisy.

Also, isn’t it basically stated that Zeus just doesn’t care about dodging? He barely ever attempts to dodge anything, and as we see, durability is blatantly what his main fighting style is. He just tanks whatever you throw at him, because he finds fights fun.

At least Brunhilde was actually able to see what was happening with Adam, when Ares couldn't see TFTST at all.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I don't think many other characters have real speed feats like Zeus does, which kinda sucks. Also, reading back through that fight, Adam's reaction speed might just always scale to TFTST or more conservatively Divine Axe, since he dodged everything else with no trouble and was even stated to have room to spare.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I don't think many other characters have real speed feats like Zeus does, which kinda sucks. Also, reading back through that fight, Adam's reaction speed might just always scale to TFTST or more conservatively Divine Axe, since he dodged everything else with no trouble and was even stated to have room to spare.

This would basically put most characters at Unknown speed, possibly with FTL reaction if we take Ares' statement about gods being able to react somewhat to Divine Zxe seriously.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Poseidon is one thing because IIRC he moved faster than Ares, who can see Divine Axe just fine, could keep track of, so he probably scales to the FTL calc. But what about all the other characters?

Also, what is Adam's speed?

At least Brunhilde was actually able to see what was happening with Adam, when Ares couldn't see TFTST at all.

Brunhilde’s statement about Adam is literally just incorrect. He isn’t shown straining until after fighting Adamas Zeus for an extended period of time. I’d literally said all of this before, can we please not stonewall?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Also also, Ares apparently specifies that only the Meteor Jab and Divine Axe are way above the capacity for most gods to react to, so at worst we could scale to the attacks before those.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Also also, Ares apparently specifies that only the Meteor Jab and Divine Axe are way above the capacity for most gods to react to, so at worst we could scale to the attacks before those.

One's like 1000 times faster than the other...

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I am aware.

Personally, now that I look at all this, I think it might be better to either delete the profiles altogether or lock them until the manga is further along, because so far we have very few concrete feats for major categories on basically everyone's front.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Deleting them is the only option in this case, all locking them would do is leave them with these dodgy stats except you can't edit without being staff.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

I mainly put locking them as an option because deleting people's work doesn't sit well with me, plus people couldn't add matches, so having the page get filled with bogus wins or loses would be impossible.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I am aware.

Personally, now that I look at all this, I think it might be better to either delete the profiles altogether or lock them until the manga is further along, because so far we have very few concrete feats for major categories on basically everyone's front.

locking works, I suppose.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Oppai has seemingly just dismissed everything i’ve said within the last rough half hour, so I see no reason to keep this thread going. The vote for infinite speed vs time stop has been going for hours, with input from multiple staff, and a majority leaning towards infinite speed. There’s no reason to talk about this speed bit anymore, so at least move onto a different part.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I mainly put locking them as an option because deleting people's work doesn't sit well with me, plus people couldn't add matches, so having the page get filled with bogus wins or loses would be impossible.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't they alway just be restored by a staff member? Having pages with stats we admit are wrong doesn't sit well with me either.

Oppai has seemingly just dismissed everything i’ve said within the last rough half hour, so I see no reason to keep this thread going. The vote for infinite speed vs time stop has been going for hours, with input from multiple staff, and a majority leaning towards infinite speed. There’s no reason to talk about this speed bit anymore, so at least move onto a different part.

And you haven't said anything different than what you said yesterday, so what's the point of repeating the same back and forth again?

 

[Axxtentacle]

And you haven't said anything different than what you said yesterday, so what's the point of repeating the same back and forth again?

I’ve expanded on previous points, as Overlord prevented much better arguments than you so far.

You just ignoring the rest of it doesn’t mean i’ve said the same things, and i’ve actually brought up a few additional points, but it doesn’t seem like you read the thread before coming back.

Either way, infinite speed won the vote. There’s really no arguing against that now.

 

[PowerToScale]

you also got to remember that the first few punches that Zeus threw, when Adam copied them Zeus was surprised and stunned. He was too surprised that Adam copied the moves to even dodge. Every time Zeus did a move, Zeus would be shocked that it was copied and stand completely still, until he went Adamas and didn't just didn't care about getting hit

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

I’ve expanded on previous points, as Overlord prevented much better arguments than you so far.

You just ignoring the rest of it doesn’t mean i’ve said the same things, and i’ve actually brought up a few additional points, but it doesn’t seem like you read the thread before coming back.

Either way, infinite speed won the vote. There’s really no arguing against that now.

I read through all of it, and your comments, and Overlord's comments, and I find that nothing new was really brought up.

 

[LightReinh12345]

It was brought up by a mod memeber (Ultima) and it does qualify for infinite speed if that is ur question/doubt

Its not my question
I am directly Voting against infinite speed
I don't think that was infinite speed
At best U can say "possibly infinite"
I am going for time stop anyway

 

[Antvasima]

We need a good summary of the arguments and evidence for and against here if you want staff input to break the deadlock. You cannot expect them to read almost 450 posts to reach a decision.

After this has been done, I can call some of them here.

 

[Overlord775]

the statement that Adam was strained for copying a god’s techniques came from Brunhilde, so you misunderstood what I was talking about or made a false assumption

actually, it was further reistated Hermes iirc, who is more reliable

yes... two. He dodges seemingly hundreds to thousands of strikes throughout the entire encounter before going blind, so 1 thing happening 2 times is still outliers

nope, it happening twice means it's consistent

...or it was an outlier, as he had never seen Zeus’ techniques before, but managed to match their speed first try,

see how Adam was brushed by the first attack

do you prefer the wording of “malevolent presence”? It set everyone in the arena uneasy, so there’s blatantly something more than just “he was intimidating”

seems more because raw power tha anything else

yes, how would there be a pressure that Zeus is seemingly not aware of, that only came from his Adamas form, if there wasn’t a kind of “aura” or “presence” to him?

raw power

Do you have the scan? Either way, it still could be statistics amplification with the technique, since it doesn’t have to be drawing power from outside sources

not like i've reposted it a thusand times already. Also if it works by affecting the surroding enviroment it's not stat amp

I’ve argued PIS before, though it was just ignored, but not by you. So, that’s fair enough.

k, though people seemed adverse to that idea

If that’s the case, I guess Adam would have to have passive time manipulation resistance with the Eyes Of The Lord, though infinite speed still seems accurate to me.

/shrug

Debatable at best.

that's what we saw happen tho

...where did the “quote” for this come from, and why isn’t there a username attached to it? I certainly never said that, so I don’t know why you included it in a response to me.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/recor...ened-to-this-verse.109478/page-4#post-3457072

don't lie

Fiction has numerously shown characters to have energy going outwards from their bodies while powering up, so that point is moot.

except said "aura" lasted quite a bit after Zeus fell, also it wouldn't explain how stuff was frozen in place as it washed over it

...artistic choice, if they weren’t shown, it would just be a giant black box with dialogue until after the move is over. That doesn’t work for a manga, especially not for portraying a kind of ultimate technique.

Adam being blackened too untill he pulled the reverse uno card shows it's not just aristic choise

I mean, by the logic of “the time stop caused the black effect” which you said to be a popular artistic choice (it’s not, blacked out characters in time stop is not a popular artistic choice, That was already addressed my someone else, quite a while ago) then Sasaki really could just be doing that, and the background could be the “popular artistic choice”.

something lasting multiple scans and proper support behind it >>>> background going black for one scan only and without any explanation

...I don’t see what this has to do with anything, his calculation speed never extremely outclassed Poseidon.

Sasaki could for the majority of the fight predict countless attack patterns in the time it took Poseidon to make one attack

Afterimages? It’s literally a giant, see-through torso-up figure of Jack over the city of London. It clearly doesn’t mean anything, similar to the punch.

post the scan

The narrator does not say time manipulation, this is a non-argument as it ignores the fact that the direct quote doesn’t even say time manipulation, it says the mention of it’s name is SAID to exert control over all of time, which is quite literally a rumor. It’s not confirmed, the narrator is just saying that there’s a rumor about the ability being able to exert control over all of time.

"exert control over all of time" is clear cut time manipulation

considering it's the only proper description of the attack we have, i'd take it for granted

This is reasonable, the wording could be something to the likes of Speed: MFTL+, Infinite with TFTST (Though the ability could be time stop). I’m sure someone can word it better than me, but you get the idea.

i was thinking more

P&A: Possibly Time Stop/Slow (Using the First that surpassed time he seemigly halted time. An attack said to exert control over all of time)

Speed: MFTL+, possibly Infinite with TFTST (Allowed Zeus to attack in a 0.0000000000 seconds timeframe)

 

[Antvasima]

I was thinking more

P&A: Possibly Time Stop/Slow (Using the First that surpassed time he seemigly halted time. An attack said to exert control over all of time)

Speed: MFTL+, possibly Infinite with TFTST (Allowed Zeus to attack in a 0.0000000000 seconds timeframe)

Or should we use this as a compromise solution instead?

 

[InfiniteDay]

Compromise is best.

 

[Axxtentacle]

We need a good summary of the arguments and evidence for and against here if you want staff input to break the deadlock. You cannot expect them to read almost 450 posts to reach a decision.

After this has been done, I can call some of them here.

We have input from 4 staff, do we need more?

 

[Aridwolverine]

A compromise would be best. Pretty sure neither side is gonna give in so having "possibly Infinite Speed/ possibly Time Stop/Slow" seems like the best solution.

 

[Tyri456]

P&A: Possibly Time Stop/Slow (Using the First that surpassed time he seemigly halted time. An attack said to exert control over all of time)

Speed: MFTL+, possibly Infinite with TFTST (Allowed Zeus to attack in a 0.0000000000 seconds timeframe)

Finally you agree, I can agree with this too.

 

[Axxtentacle]

actually, it was further reistated Hermes iirc, who is more reliable

I think you’re thinking about when Loki said both fighters were at their limit.

nope, it happening twice means it's consistent

Just because it’s an outlier, doesn’t mean it can’t happen more than once. 2/seemingly hundreds to thousands of attacks is still an outlier.

see how Adam was brushed by the first attack

Brushed by what attack? He casually dodges everything in the first bit of the fight.

seems more because raw power tha anything else

The narrator implies that he has a kind of evil-feeling aura from him.

raw power

Debatable.

not like i've reposted it a thusand times already. Also if it works by affecting the surroding enviroment it's not stat amp

Ares states he can’t see any part of the encounter. He says he only saw Zeus getting ready to attack, and the wave only comes up AFTER Zeus lunges at adam. If it was a time stop like that, then wouldn’t time have stopped when spectators couldn’t see what happened?

k, though people seemed adverse to that idea

Eh, it’s explainable.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/recor...ened-to-this-verse.109478/page-4#post-3457072

don't lie

I never said “Hype from the goddamn omniscient narrator”. The quote doesn’t even have a jump to any message where I said that attached, and the link you posted literally doesn’t have that in the message, so please stop lying about what I said.

except said "aura" lasted quite a bit after Zeus fell, also it wouldn't explain how stuff was frozen in place as it washed over it

The “aura” I was referring to was the seemingly uneasy feeling he left on everyone.
I addressed the wave point earlier in the reply.

Adam being blackened too untill he pulled the reverse uno card shows it's not just aristic choise

Not really, Adam not moving and not having light on him could really just mean that he just didn’t move yet.

something lasting multiple scans and proper support behind it >>>> background going black for one scan only and without any explanation

There’s no explanation, and Ares states he didn’t see any part of the encounter, only Zeus preparing to attack. If he only saw Zeus preparing to attack, he would’ve at least seen him lunge at Adam, but he doesn’t say that. The wave comes off of Zeus as he lunges at Adam, basically disqualifying the entire argument.

post the scan

I‘ll look for it.

"exert control over all of time" is clear cut time manipulation

considering it's the only proper description of the attack we have, i'd take it for granted

“Is SAID to exert control over all of time” isn’t stating it’s time manipulation, it’s stating that there’s a rumor that the attack controls time.

i was thinking more

P&A: Possibly Time Stop/Slow (Using the First that surpassed time he seemigly halted time. An attack said to exert control over all of time)

I had put Infinite there as the speed rating as it has seemed to win the vote, but this works. I’d be fine with it.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Or should we use this as a compromise solution instead?

If you think it’s justifiable, yes.

It definitely works for the profile/profiles, and I think everyone’s in agreement with this compromise.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems like we should go with the compromise then, yes.

 

[Ionliosite]

No, I completely disagree with that compromise. For starters, that compromise is wrong, the feat literally cannot be MFTL, Ultima gave an entire reasoning why that's the case. Second, looking for a compomise for something that has two very clear options that contradict each other is a golden mean fallacy. I don't care if Infinite speed is accepted, but a compromise is definitely not the solution to this.

 

[InfiniteDay]

We should keep infinite speed and add a note saying it is potentially time stop.