Record of Ragnarok: Whatever the hell happened to this verse

[Axxtentacle]

the fact that you responded about Brunhilde when i was talking aout the narrator

the statement that Adam was strained for copying a god’s techniques came from Brunhilde, so you misunderstood what I was talking about or made a false assumption

1 showing it's an outlier, but there's two instances of Adam being almost hit

yes... two. He dodges seemingly hundreds to thousands of strikes throughout the entire encounter before going blind, so 1 thing happening 2 times is still outliers

also, Adam's ability is to copy the gods with his eyes, so it's very much not headcanon to say he would need to see Adamas in action to match it's speed

...or it was an outlier, as he had never seen Zeus’ techniques before, but managed to match their speed first try,

which isn't the same as a "aura"

do you prefer the wording of “malevolent presence”? It set everyone in the arena uneasy, so there’s blatantly something more than just “he was intimidating”

i ment the comment about the pressure that Ares says

yes, how would there be a pressure that Zeus is seemingly not aware of, that only came from his Adamas form, if there wasn’t a kind of “aura” or “presence” to him?

He was planning to kill Adam, but he wasn't going seriusly as he underestimated him

fair enough

again, energy is being sent OUT, not in

Do you have the scan? Either way, it still could be statistics amplification with the technique, since it doesn’t have to be drawing power from outside sources

if it was Infinite speed, then Adamas would scale, which unless we threat the spectators being able to watch as PIS [which tbf would be a fair point] it would make no sense

I’ve argued PIS before, though it was just ignored, but not by you. So, that’s fair enough.

The wind up is part of the punch, also the eyes could just you know, be able to work while time is stopped or just have copied the punch as Zeus began it as Adam has in fact reacted to it

If that’s the case, I guess Adam would have to have passive time manipulation resistance with the Eyes Of The Lord, though infinite speed still seems accurate to me.

The time stop happened in a "wave" and disappeared in the same way

Debatable at best.

yeah, you have no basis to say that's just hype

also the "rumor" + the fact that it comes from the personification of time + the way it looks makes a pretty clear picture

...where did the “quote” for this come from, and why isn’t there a username attached to it? I certainly never said that, so I don’t know why you included it in a response to me.

The energy would be going inward, not outwards, if Zeus was doing that.

Fiction has numerously shown characters to have energy going outwards from their bodies while powering up, so that point is moot.

WHY would it be just the characters ?

...artistic choice, if they weren’t shown, it would just be a giant black box with dialogue until after the move is over. That doesn’t work for a manga, especially not for portraying a kind of ultimate technique.

1. There's a very clear differece in-between what happeed with the punch and "for this one scan only the background is black"

I mean, by the logic of “the time stop caused the black effect” which you said to be a popular artistic choice (it’s not, blacked out characters in time stop is not a popular artistic choice, That was already addressed my someone else, quite a while ago) then Sasaki really could just be doing that, and the background could be the “popular artistic choice”.

2. It was estalished throught the entire fight how Sasaki's calculatio speed >>> his normal speed

...I don’t see what this has to do with anything, his calculation speed never extremely outclassed Poseidon.

3. that's litterally just afterimages

Afterimages? It’s literally a giant, see-through torso-up figure of Jack over the city of London. It clearly doesn’t mean anything, similar to the punch.

in neither of those three cases there's anything telling that something is happening, meanwhile for the punch the litteral momet efore it's throw the narrator says time maipulation

The narrator does not say time manipulation, this is a non-argument as it ignores the fact that the direct quote doesn’t even say time manipulation, it says the mention of it’s name is SAID to exert control over all of time, which is quite literally a rumor. It’s not confirmed, the narrator is just saying that there’s a rumor about the ability being able to exert control over all of time.

anyway, i feel like we could reach a middle point and like have it as Possibly infinite Speed and Possibly Time Stop

This is reasonable, the wording could be something to the likes of Speed: MFTL+, Infinite with TFTST (Though the ability could be time stop). I’m sure someone can word it better than me, but you get the idea.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

How is the count for those that agree with infinite?

 

[Axxtentacle]

I believe it’s 9 for infinite with Creature. Still no staff votes though.

There’s 6 for Time Stop, but they also have a staff vote, so it might give more credence to their side based on how this wiki handles staff input.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

It was accepted by a calc member, so yeah, they are going to be 6-B minimum

Really? Because some of the numbers don’t look right, but whatever

 

[Axxtentacle]

Really? Because some of the numbers don’t look right, but whatever

Looks weird to me too, but these people apparently know what they’re doing, and common sense usually doesn’t apply to more complicated math subjects, so it’s probably correct anyway.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

For the record, I agree with infinite speed

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

10 in favor

 

[Axxtentacle]

Infinite Speed: 10, 1 being staff

Time Stop: 6, 1 being staff

No matter how this vote goes, I think we could still mention that it could potentially be time stop and not infinite speed as a note at the bottom of the pages.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I also messaged Ultima, so they should hopefully be responding soon. Maybe we can finally get this CRT over with, as the AP feats seem to have been dealt with before this part of the debate started.

 

[PowerToScale]

The time punch can be both Infinite speed and Time stop, It doesn't have to be limited to one or the other, both time stop and infinite speed can be correct. Its an attack that is performed in presumably in 0 seconds, and the said attack is also stated to exert control over time as well, hence why the background goes black and everything stops in place.

Adamas being faster isn't really wrong, as Adamas is Zeus' pinnacle point, his strongest and fastest self. This is also made evident were Adam actually got serious after feeling its Aura, struggled to dodge punches when he casually dodged everything including the time punch, and Zeus being able scratch Adam in Adamas.

If the argument is that the crowd can see the punches, it doesn't really make it wrong as its just something that happens in fiction, slower characters seeing faster ones they shouldn't, such examples being krillian and others seeing MUI and Jiren fighting.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I'm late but i do think that Zeus's chronos fist should be infinite in speed with the 0s likely never ending to illustrate 0 seconds past only for the attack to land which should fit the requirement of infinite speed. Should likely only be with said attack doe as while Adamas is his best form it doesn't do the same thing as Chronos's punch. Doe one can argue that Zeus hit him despite his dad using the punch but he couldn't see it so there is that

 

[Axxtentacle]

I'm late but i do think that Zeus's chronos fist should be infinite in speed with the 0s likely never ending to illustrate 0 seconds past only for the attack to land which should fit the requirement of infinite speed. Should likely only be with said attack doe as while Adamas is his best form it doesn't do the same thing as Chronos's punch. Doe one can argue that Zeus hit him despite his dad using the punch but he couldn't see it so there is that

You’re not late, you’re actually perfectly on time. The votes only started a few hours ago, and are still active, though it look as if the infinite speed part is going to win.

Infinite Speed: 11, 2 staff

Time Stop: 6, 1 staff

Either way, i’d argue for Time Stop to potentially be in a note, or as PowerToScale said,

The time punch can be both Infinite speed and Time stop, It doesn't have to be limited to one or the other, both time stop and infinite speed can be correct. Its an attack that is performed in presumably in 0 seconds, and the said attack is also stated to exert control over time as well, hence why the background goes black and everything stops in place.

Adamas being faster isn't really wrong, as Adamas is Zeus' pinnacle point, his strongest and fastest self. This is also made evident were Adam actually got serious after feeling its Aura, struggled to dodge punches when he casually dodged everything including the time punch, and Zeus being able scratch Adam in Adamas.

If the argument is that the crowd can see the punches, it doesn't really make it wrong as its just something that happens in fiction, slower characters seeing faster ones they shouldn't, such examples being krillian and others seeing MUI and Jiren fighting.

Though this could be iffy.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

well, my main argument for Adamas being fucky is that TFTST was expressly stated by Ares in-universe to be so fast that he couldn't see any part of that exchange, when he can normally see Zeus' moves without any real trouble. He says something like "I never took my eyes off of Zeus, but one moment he was preparing to strike, and the next his head was on backwards."

I could agree with the attacks not being presented as as fast as TFTST because then the gravitas of the whole move would be destroyed, but Ares and the others seemed to be able to see Adamas move without any issues.

 

[Axxtentacle]

The counter argument to the time stop happening in waves is that Ares states he couldn’t see ANY part of the exchange, despite the wave only coming out AFTER Zeus lunges at Adam.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I also messaged Ultima, so they should hopefully be responding soon. Maybe we can finally get this CRT over with, as the AP feats seem to have been dealt with before this part of the debate started.

I am neutral on whether the feat is legitimate speed or just Time Stop, for the record. I was mostly explaining why Infinite Speed would be a valid rating going by the feat interpretation which Hl3 told me about and was supporting up there.

 

[Axxtentacle]

I am neutral on whether the feat is legitimate speed or just Time Stop, for the record. I was mostly explaining why Infinite Speed would be a valid rating going by the feat interpretation which Hl3 told me about and was supporting up there.

Ah, ok. It seems that the CRT has come to a finisher anyway, as nobody’s continued any arguments and votes have been cast.

 

[PowerToScale]

If the TFTST does become infinite speed, Adamas should be rated "At least MFTL+, possibly Infinite" at the very least. It should be listed in the justification or notes that "The Adamas form punches out scale and out perform the TFST through feats and depiction, however, thorugh other characters seeing the punches it is unknown if it is truly faster".

This all stems from if we accept as simply infinite speed or time stop. However, if you accept it as both it would just become:
The attack was performed at 0 seconds as shown with the timeframe, and due to the attack having control over time, Zeus stops time along travelling that fast, as everyone saw Zeus perp the attack, but nothing in between the him prepping and the result. Which causes everyone to not be able to see the attack, due to the stop time and not speed. Which then when Zeus goes Adamas and is shown to be faster and is scratching Adam ands is causing Adam to get serious, everyone is seeing the fight because the Adamas punches don't manipulate time like the TFTST and isn't stopping time.

Personally, saying it does both makes the most sense to me, as we have confirmation that the TFTST does manipulate time and and is performed at Infinite speeds, and people not seeing the attack is simply due to time stop, which is why Adamas can be seen as it doesn't stop time.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I would think that Adamas is indeed slower than the FTST, with the discrepancy being due to the Eyes of the Lord allowing Adam to easily counter the FTST, but the deterioration of his eyes preventing him from doing the same to Adamas.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Guys, let's just ignore speed, a 6-B feat that scales to everyone was accepted by a calc member

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Okey, since we kinda resolved the speed we can go to the calc about 6-B

 

[Axxtentacle]

well, the AP bit seemed to be accepted already, from what I picked up. But if it needs to be debated further, then it can be.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Is it just me or dose the length of the Ganges river seem a little wrong?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's Time Manipulation they flat out says the attack stops time

 

[InfiniteDay]

Nope, according to google it is 2510577 meters, more than what was estimated.

 

[InfiniteDay]

It's Time Manipulation they flat out says the attack stops time

Post evidence that hasn't been debunked.

 

[Axxtentacle]

It's Time Manipulation they flat out says the attack stops time

i’ve addressed this, it’s rumored to stop time because of the story of the technique, or that’s at least the implication

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree with Matt, Oppai and Overlord that it is Time hax rather than speed.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That leaves the voting at

Time Stop: 8, 2 staff

Infinite Speed: 11, 2 staff

 

[PowerToScale]

That leaves the voting at

Time Stop: 8, 2 staff

Infinite Speed: 11, 2 staff

I believe its both, where do I fit?

 

[Axxtentacle]

You don’t really fit in, there’s no point to count your vote here as it wouldn’t really mean anything.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

At no point is the attack "flat out stated to stop time." We have a description of its reputation, which means jack, ****, and shit.

 

[BakiHanma18]

Agreed. Based on review of the arguments and the chapters, I’m more inclined to believe it’s Infinite Speed.

 

[Axxtentacle]

12 for infinite speed

8 for time stop

both have 2 staff member votes

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Alright, can someone explain something to me: Why would the strung together context of "the fight is about them constantly accelerating" matter more than the context that is provided by the omniscient narrator right as Zeus is performing TFTST?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Because that context is about the reputation surrounding TFTST, not the actual attack itself.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

And the context of them speeding up all through the fight is something you made up, rather than it being stated that the fight is about them punching faster and faster until reaching a time frame of 0.

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

... no one has been using that as an argument

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

... no one has been using that as an argument

No one has been using "the fight is all about them speeding up" as a reason for why it's speed?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Not that I am aware of. It's not even that bad of an argument either, although not as good as the others brought up imo, so I don't get your point.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

The point is that, even if it's just an implication, the narrator saying that the move is known as something that manipulates time makes time manip a more simple solution than something like a stat amp which was never implied.