Record of Ragnarok: Whatever the hell happened to this verse

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

can i tag a person here

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Just to clarify on my stance just in case, I agree with time stop/disagree with infinite speed.

 

[Sadistic_Sleuth]

I agree with Infinite speed.

 

[Axxtentacle]

That puts us at:
6 votes for it being time stop.
7 votes for it being infinite speed.

Just to clarify on my stance just in case, I agree with time stop/disagree with infinite speed.

Thank you, it seemed that way, but like I said i’m only including blatant “i agree” and “i disagrees” for the sake of clarity.

 

[HalilAssassino]

Agree with infinite speed

 

[Axxtentacle]

time stop: 6

infinite speed: 8

 

[Antvasima]

So how has the discussion about time stop progressed since I last left off, and what is the staff consensus here?

 

[Axxtentacle]

So how has the discussion about time stop progressed since I last left off, and what is the staff consensus here?

We’re currently doing a vote on who thinks what, and we seemingly don’t have any staff votes. None of the staff have clarified what they disagree/agree with directly.

We’re currently on 6 votes for the downgrade from infinite speed and changing it to a time stop, and 8 votes against the downgrade for infinite speed, so a bit of staff input is appreciated. If you do ping anyone though, could you suggest reading the whole thread so they get the whole idea before responding? I don’t want to have votes from someone just reading part of the argument and basing their vote off of that, and not considering counter-arguments.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Just gonna point out that saying upgrade and downgrade is very vague. Should probably change it to infinite speed and time stop since those are the two interpretations we are arguing over

 

[Axxtentacle]

Will do.

I made sure to clarify what I meant in the original comment about votes, but i’ll change it anyway just incase.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

What's the current Argument?

 

[Axxtentacle]

What's the current Argument?

Whether Zeus’ “The Fist That Surpassed Time” attack used temporary stat amplification for infinite speed, or if it was just a time stop. For more info, you should likely read at least the 2nd and third page of the thread, as that’s where the majority of this takes place.

 

[Overlord775]

The quote you found says “the entire fight” which, well, is what I responded to. I’m not sure what quote you thought I had been responding to, but that’s the quote you used, which I responded to. He wasn’t bleeding literally at all until AFTER having to fight the Adamas Form for a few minutes straight, unless i’m misremembering the timeframe of the fight. I don’t recall any sweat, though it could just be because I haven’t reread the fight in a while.

Adam started showing problems ONLY after Zeus went Adamas, before that he was extremelly casual including the first of time, then he began to be overwealemed by Zeus's output, showing that Adamas >>> First of time in terms of speed

Or, like I said, the ability itself could just have a limit on how long it can last under constant use, which is such as applicable as the other solution, given evidence.

considering how Adam was forced into a defensive stace while he casually countered as many attacks from base Zeus without problems, repeated use is not the main problem

Also, it’s obvious that RoR doesn’t just use the name/statements about moves to show us what the moves can do, as literally once Adamas Form comes out, his basic attacks are said to be “unavoidable one hit kills” which Adam then continues to tank dozens of later in the fight. It’s implied that he was alive when he grabbed Zeus by the head to start counter attacking again, since he was speaking, so that could be potentially hundreds of these “one hit kills” hitting him before he dies. My point is that statements about moves such as “exert control over all of time” aren’t stable and shouldn’t be used to apply abilities to characters.

There's a VERY big differece between a statement from a easilly scared and misiformed Valkyrie and one from an Omniscient narrator, the latter holds much more value

 

[Overlord775]

also, your vote couting is very faulty, as you haven't couted even people like Ant who repetedly stated to agree with the time stop option

 

[Axxtentacle]

also, your vote couting is very faulty, as you haven't couted even people like Ant who repetedly stated to agree with the time stop option

Ant said that it seems more convincing so far, which isn’t a direct agreement.

Adam started showing problems ONLY after Zeus went Adamas, before that he was extremelly casual including the first of time, then he began to be overwealemed by Zeus's output, showing that Adamas >>> First of time in terms of speed

I’ve given my argument against this already, Adam still dodges and counters his Adamas form attacks from the start, such as the first few strikes Zeus throws. Adam was blatantly not struggling against those first attacks, so it’s obviously not that the attacks themselves are massive threats, or necessarily faster, it’s just that they’re constant.

considering how Adam was forced into a defensive stace while he casually countered as many attacks from base Zeus without problems, repeated use is not the main problem

He wasn’t forced into a defensive stance, he went into a defensive stance naturally. This doesn’t really mean anything, as Adam went into an offensive stance to counter the fist of time, so I don’t see why him being in a stance actually means anything here.

There's a VERY big differece between a statement from a easilly scared and misiformed Valkyrie and one from an Omniscient narrator, the latter holds much more value

Fair enough here, but misinformed? Where does the misinformed part come from? That seems more like headcanon for the sake of the argument, but the point itself makes sense.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Be sure to list each user who supports either argument, probably separated by normal users and staff as well.

Considering both sides have presented their arguments and Ant finds one more convincing, saying that doesn’t count is highly disingenuous.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Be sure to list each user who supports either argument, probably separated by normal users and staff as well.

Considering both sides have presented their arguments and Ant finds one more convincing, saying that doesn’t count is highly disingenuous.

He said he found one more convincing a substantial while ago, before I even joined into the thread, and a good bit has happened since. If he said it again here, I would count it, but atm he hasn’t said anything about how the debate has gone since.

Also, why does Brunhilde’s statement about Adam’s nervous system being strained intensely from copying The God’s techniques matter, when it’s shown to be false, but her statement about Zeus’ attacks being “one hit kills” doesn’t? Wouldn’t they both just be false, making her a very unreliable source of information, and entirely disproving the argument that Adam’s eyes were strained from the start?

Note: we apparently have no staff votes so far, which is why I mentioned that earlier. All of our votes have come from normal users so far, unless I got it wrong. I asked Ant if he could get some staff input here, but nothing’s come from it yet, so we have to wait and see.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Be sure to list each user who supports either argument, probably separated by normal users and staff as well.

At the moment, it seems unnecessary as we don’t have proper staff input. I’ll do this later, once we have staff input.
Wait, i’m mistaken, isn’t Antoinofer (not sure how his username is spelled) staff? If so, we have 1 staff member agreeing with the Time Stop, but majority still with Infinite Speed.

 

[Antvasima]

We’re currently doing a vote on who thinks what, and we seemingly don’t have any staff votes. None of the staff have clarified what they disagree/agree with directly.

We’re currently on 6 votes for the downgrade from infinite speed and changing it to a time stop, and 8 votes against the downgrade for infinite speed, so a bit of staff input is appreciated. If you do ping anyone though, could you suggest reading the whole thread so they get the whole idea before responding? I don’t want to have votes from someone just reading part of the argument and basing their vote off of that, and not considering counter-arguments.

If somebody who knows what they are doing properly summarises the discussion so far, I can send notifications to some staff members and ask them to help us out.

 

[AnonymousBlank]

Before you arrived, sure. But he said it earlier today. How is that not valid?

 

[Axxtentacle]

Before you arrived, sure. But he said it earlier today. How is that not valid?

Oh, he did say it early in the morning, 5:37am. Either way, a lot has happened with the discussion since he last said it, as I said before, so it’s still safer to get his opinion on it currently.

 

[Axxtentacle]

If somebody who knows what they are doing properly summarises the discussion so far, I can send notifications to some staff members and ask them to help us out.

Summary: Regarding the speed section of the CRT, we’ve come to a deadlock as both sides have given compelling arguments as to how Zeus’ “The Fist That Surpassed Time” is either a Time Stop, or infinite speed. We’re attempting a majority vote, and have 6 for time stop, and 8 for infinite speed, but we have very little staff input.

I don’t know if this is a usable summary, as i’m personally not very good with summaries, but it gets the gist of the situation across. If this isn’t acceptable, i’ll just let someone else do it.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

Also, why does Brunhilde’s statement about Adam’s nervous system being strained intensely from copying The God’s techniques matter, when it’s shown to be false, but her statement about Zeus’ attacks being “one hit kills” doesn’t? Wouldn’t they both just be false, making her a very unreliable source of information, and entirely disproving the argument that Adam’s eyes were strained from the start?

You are misconstruing what she said. She says "normally, every single one of those swings would be an unavoidable one-hit kill" as in normally, people shouldn't be able to dodge or survive the attacks. However, Adam is clearly far from normal, and Brunhilde prefacing it with "normally" is an acknowledgement of that. She is not saying that Zeus' attacks are impossible to be dodged.
https://s5.mkklcdnv5.com/************/v2/vy918232/vol3_chapter_12_overwhelming_love/4.jpg

 

[InfiniteDay]

There is no essence here to suggest time stop. It is called the Fist that Surpasses Time, not the Fist that Controls Time or the Fist that Stops Time. It moves in 0 seconds, that is EXPLICITLY stated. Time is in no way stopped, it's just moving so fast that time isn't capable of moving forward in 0 seconds, which in our world isn't. Light cannot travel, and thus we have black and grey background.

 

[OppaiSenpai5]

There is no essence here to suggest time stop. It is called the Fist that Surpasses Time, not the Fist that Controls Time or the Fist that Stops Time. It moves in 0 seconds, that is EXPLICITLY stated. Time is in no way stopped, it's just moving so fast that time isn't capable of moving forward in 0 seconds, which in our world isn't. Light cannot travel, and thus we have black and grey background.

Surpassing time is a vague and meaningless thing. It means different things in different series, and in some it doesn't even mean anything.

It is not explicedly stated to move in 0 secs, it's just that the zero after the decimal point are so numerous that they go off panel. If we're being truthfull here, there is no way to know if it's exactly zero or just some very small number.

If everything is black because light can't travel, why are Zeus and Adam colored? It's because they are exempt from the influence of the ability.

 

[Axxtentacle]

You are misconstruing what she said. She says "normally, every single one of those swings would be an unavoidable one-hit kill" as in normally, people shouldn't be able to dodge or survive the attacks. However, Adam is clearly far from normal, and Brunhilde prefacing it "normally" is an acknowledgement of that. She is not saying that Zeus' attacks are impossible to be dodged.
https://s5.mkklcdnv5.com/************/v2/vy918232/vol3_chapter_12_overwhelming_love/4.jpg

I didn’t say the attacks were unavoidable, you’re misconstruing my argument.

I was arguing that she was unreliable as she implied that without dodging, any of those hits would be 1 hit kills against Adam. The “normally” part means virtually nothing, as there’s no reason for her to be saying that his punches would one hit kill anyone other than the person he’s literally using them against, if anything, it’s saying that without Adam’s eyes which are allowing him to dodge the attacks, he would’ve been dead immediately. Adam tanks the attacks Brunhilde implies would 1 hit him if he didn’t dodge them, he tanks, visually, dozens to hundreds of them.

My argument was that she was unreliable because her statements are blatantly wrong about these two, consistently.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Surpassing time is a vague and meaningless thing. It means different things in different series, and in some it doesn't even mean anything.

It is not explicedly stated to move in 0 secs, it's just that the zero after the decimal point are so numerous that they go off panel. If we're being truthfull here, there is no way to know if it's exactly zero or just some very small number.

If everything is black because light can't travel, why are Zeus and Adam colored? It's because they are exempt from the influence of the ability.

And in this case, the context is that they’re just getting faster and faster. I don’t see why you keep using this argument, it just doesn’t make sense for it not to be out of speed since everything prior has been out of speed.

Adam wasn’t coloured until he started moving again, and the last time we see him before he counters, he’s not coloured and it appears he’s in shock from the attack. He either moved IN the time stop to counter with his own punch, which he is implied to do since he hadn’t gone into his punch stance yet, or it just wasn’t a time stop.

This argument doesn’t make sense unless you assume it’s already right from the start, which is a fallacy. I don’t see why it keeps coming up, it just doesn’t work.

 

[Axxtentacle]

If everything is black because light can't travel, why are Zeus and Adam colored? It's because they are exempt from the influence of the ability.

...or maybe it’s just an artistic choice so that the entire panels aren’t just black boxes?

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

My god, are people still arguing for Zeus' attack to be time stop?

There is no indication of this being the case outside of simple reputation, which isn't even remotely true because Ares specifies that even Zeus' normal attacks are far faster than any other god can react to, so an attack that is even faster than those having that type of reputation isn't unreasonable. Furthermore, what exactly do you think 0.0000... means if it's not endlessly regressing towards just 0? And even then, assuming it isn't 0, that completely destroys the entire argument for it being time stop.

 

[InfiniteDay]

Surpassing time is a vague and meaningless thing. It means different things in different series, and in some it doesn't even mean anything.

It is not explicedly stated to move in 0 secs, it's just that the zero after the decimal point are so numerous that they go off panel. If we're being truthfull here, there is no way to know if it's exactly zero or just some very small number.

If everything is black because light can't travel, why are Zeus and Adam colored? It's because they are exempt from the influence of the ability.

Why are they colored? Because of the same reason characters are colored when time is stopped.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Seems like another one in agreement with infinite speed

 

[Axxtentacle]

Seems like another one in agreement with infinite speed

if you’re talking about Hl3, he was already included in the vote since his agreement was very, very blatant

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Also, to address the visuals argument for it being time stop that was brought up earlier.

The best comparison to that I think of is that Regular Show episode where everyone gets on an extreme sugar high to the point that everything else is static black and white shapes. Visuals don't mean anything without backing, and that case is obviously just raw speed given the context. This is also the case here, where we have no evidence of Zeus having time manip outside of an extremely vague mention that the attack was inherited from Chronos, who has 0 feats and whose title of "Personification of Time" is exactly that, a title with no actual meaning. Furthermore, the buildup to that attack was gradually faster and faster attacks in smaller timeframes, for which there is also 0 evidence of time fuckery happening.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I'm with HI3

 

[Axxtentacle]

It’s a circular argument at this point, and his evidence only works for his argument under the assumption his argument is right from the start. It just doesn’t work, and can be disproved very quickly, it just comes off as convincing since it does make sense under the assumption his argument is correct.

Going off how the story goes, Infinite Speed (possibly with temporary stat amplification as energy is shown coming to Zeus’ fist) makes more sense. It’s obviously not a speed they keep constantly, unless you want to assume the reason people could see the fight happening afterwards was because of a trope that the Manga had already used in the past, but that’s more up to debate.

 

[Overlord775]

Ant said that it seems more convincing so far, which isn’t a direct agreement.

That IS agreement

I’ve given my argument against this already, Adam still dodges and counters his Adamas form attacks from the start, such as the first few strikes Zeus throws. Adam was blatantly not struggling against those first attacks, so it’s obviously not that the attacks themselves are massive threats, or necessarily faster, it’s just that they’re constant.

He does, but not as casually as he did vs Base

Notice how Adam took a stance and how he stopped bantering once Adamas rolled in

He wasn’t forced into a defensive stance, he went into a defensive stance naturally. This doesn’t really mean anything, as Adam went into an offensive stance to counter the fist of time, so I don’t see why him being in a stance actually means anything here.

because it mean he was actually fighting serisusly

Fair enough here, but misinformed? Where does the misinformed part come from? That seems more like headcanon for the sake of the argument, but the point itself makes sense.

sorry, mind fart, remembered it was the smol Valkirye who said it, though the point still stands that Omiscient narrator is much more rellevant than an in-story character

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

Yeah, although there is still a slight issue.

Adam was able to effortlessly dodge and counter TFTST, but Adamas Zeus forced him into a corner with attacks he had no choice but to defend against. Normally, those would just be clearly faster than TFTST, given how Adamas is meant to be Zeus' maximum power, but Ares and some others were actually reacting to Adamas Zeus' attacks, when Ares had no clue what happened when TFTST was used.

 

[Overlord775]

it's much more likely that Ares and co not being able to react to it because it stopped/massivelly slowed down comparaed to saying TFTST >>> Adamas despite the latter being Zeus' ultimate tecnique

 

[Axxtentacle]

sorry, mind fart, remembered it was the smol Valkirye who said it, though the point still stands that Omiscient narrator is much more rellevant than an in-story character

...I already disproved this by proving that Brunhilde isn’t a good source information, meaning that the “strain” adam experienced just doesn’t make sense.

That IS agreement

No, it’s saying it could likely be correct, and either way it’s still before this entire section of the debate happened, so it’s more logical to just get his opinion considering counter arguments and things that have happened since.

He does, but not as casually as he did vs Base

This is just headcanon, he shows no strain until after consistently dodging these attacks for minutes, his eyes are just being consistently used for extended periods of time

Notice how Adam took a stance and how he stopped bantering once Adamas rolled in

the stance means nothing, I already gave my argument against this

 

[Hl3_or_bust]

... that argument still doesn't work because Adam had such a hard time against Adamas while TFTST wasn't any threat.