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Record of Ragnarok: Whatever the hell happened to this verse

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Chapter 41 at the very beginning it's stated once again by narration that Shiva will destroy the world and recreate it, much like Heimdall's introduction.
 
Chapter 41 at the very beginning it's stated once again by narration that Shiva will destroy the world and recreate it, much like Heimdall's introduction.
Actually it was chapter 40, but ya I guess if there using some mythology stuff then I guess it should be somewhat legit I guess
Edit: also appertly his first technique(the dance) was supposed to bring about the destruction of the world

7742559-3449d769-90ff-4567-9dad-990dcbfa45fb.png

So there’s that to
 

Antvasima

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Okay. That seems to make sense as a validation for a 5-B rating.
 

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It seems so, yes. So is somebody willing to update the pages that scale from it?
 
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Made Shiva's and Raidens profiles. I think maybe the wording and images could be better, but over all should be good.

I have Jack's profile ready, just finishing Heracles.

For those curious, Raiden has three keys for his Pre-ragnarok/Volund like the others. The second one is himself post Volund and the third is himself post 100 seals released. I tried to just have two but it would be confusing and would look a little wired, three is the best to go
 
Also Thor's statement uses a kanji that can be translated as "Planet Earth" given the context it is highly unlikely it was referring to a clump of dirt at all.
 
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Also Thor's statement uses a kanji that can be translated as "Planet Earth" given the context it is highly unlikely it was referring to a clump of dirt at all.
is this the ''Mjolnir'' statement or the ''land and sea'' statement? I remember asking one of the wikis translators and he said that the Mjolnir statements is actually ground, but can mean earth with context.
 
No power, I was referring to Mjolnir having enough power to "shatter the earth". By the way, why would people to downgrade that feat to High 6-A ? Shattering is merely another synonim of destroying and on this wiki we accept it as 5-B why would we randomly assume things like KE and frag when due occam's razor the most logical conclusion is 5-B ?
 
So we have 3 statements, two of those made by narration that poin out at 5-B tiering and one feat from Hermes (who should scale to the cast until proven otherwise) that is 5-C. Can't we just slap "5-C likely 5-B" to the cast and a "possibly Low 2-C" rating for Zeus and Adam? Everything else is a major assumption imo.
 
Made Shiva's and Raidens profiles. I think maybe the wording and images could be better, but over all should be good.

I have Jack's profile ready, just finishing Heracles.

For those curious, Raiden has three keys for his Pre-ragnarok/Volund like the others. The second one is himself post Volund and the third is himself post 100 seals released. I tried to just have two but it would be confusing and would look a little wired, three is the best to go
Didn’t shivas backstory and how ragnarok has setup how the gods decid on big things happening litterly contradict the first statement
 
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On it’s own? Sure. But it can’t really be hype when the narrator comes along and just repeats the same thing with slightly different wording.
 
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Look at it like this.
The last one means his body is already planetary.

The Thor stuff is because context can mean the kanji for ground/earth beneath your feet can refer to the planet earth itself. Thor > Hermes = 5-C. If the different interpretations will result in either Tier 6 or Tier 5 and Thor is already superior to a Tier 5, we would go with the Tier 5 interpretation which coincidentally lines up with other divine contestants.
 
Also, Thor's profile should be 5-B, higher by awakening since I'm pretty sure Thor's earth shattering statement was related to Pre Awakening Mjolnir.
 
Look at it like this.
The last one means his body is already planetary.

The Thor stuff is because context can mean the kanji for ground/earth beneath your feet can refer to the planet earth itself. Thor > Hermes = 5-C. If the different interpretations will result in either Tier 6 or Tier 5 and Thor is already superior to a Tier 5, we would go with the Tier 5 interpretation which coincidentally lines up with other divine contestants.
When did Hermes do anything close to 5-c

That is a hype statement

Agian when has Hermes done anything 5-c
 
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Heimdall is in the middle of introducing Shiva at the start of Chapter 8, he gets interrupted by Hermes entering the arena with Geir commenting on why it became dark all of a sudden and two panels showing a full moon, the moon being the focus of one of them while the other is just in the background.
 
I will toss in another two cents and say I would not place Zeus and Adam as 2-C. Their stuff still feels like hype statements rather than tiering evidence, and Poseidon and Heracles are both described as being comparable to Zeus so placing them so much higher doesn't make much sense to me.
 
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I'm not sure here, actually. I think the only point that hasn't had a proper conclusion is if "possibly Infinite" should stay on the profile/what changes should be made to speed.
 

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Maybe somebody knowledgeable could write a good comprehensive summary of the arguments regarding that and post it as a new thread, after which I could ask some staff members to evaluate it?
 
this thread started talking about two things AP and speed, and about that I just have to say this
-Speed
Since we already have a calculation with FTL speeds plus Ares's statement about what the gods can see and not see (which seems more or less valid) I think that all Ragnarok participants are gods or humans should be put as FTL, I still think that TFTST involves manipulation but since it seems that there will be no consensus on that I think the speed of Adam and Zeus should be
FTL, Massively FTL + possibly Infinite with TFTST
-AP
here I will talk individually about the characters seen so far
Thor: of him we have his states seen his Base and Awakened Mjolnir, of his base we only have what Heimdall said (who is an unreliable narrator in my opinion) and that of the Serpent, the last one I discard because I do not think he can be used to find the power of Thor for nothing so we only know about the seas and the lands, my one question is what power is needed to tear the seas and lands, and about Mjonir Awakened I will say it again if the Raw does not know mentions the term earth with the kanjis that are used to speak of the bone planet "Chikyū" then it should not be put as a planet level
Lu Bu: I agree with his current base and that he should climb to Thor Base but be under Thor Mjolnir Awake with Volund
Zeus: I still think that what is shown does not accredit giving it the universe level although seeing that a consensus can not be reached with that I agree to leave it as a possibly, as for its true base I think it should equal or exceed Thor Mjolnir Despondent Being older with Adamas should obviously be superior, equaling or surpassing Shiva Tandava Karma
Adam: equal Adamas Zeus
Poseidon: equal to Zeus Base
Sasaki: I agree with his current Base and I think he would match Poseidon with Volund
Hercules: the base of him should match Zeus Base and be greater with his works
Jack: no idea, his base should be human level, maybe street or athlete level, with Volund he should be somewhere between Thor Base and Hercules Base
Shiva: his base should be equal to or higher than Thor Base but I agree with giving him planet level but only his Tandava Karma Form
Raiden: I agree with his base and with Volund he should be equal to Shiva Base and with his muscular manipulation he should be superior to Shiva Base but inferior to Tandava Karma
in the end it all comes down to how strong is Thor Base and Mjolnir Awakened
With all this said and having what is mentioned in the manga, the only conclusions I can reach are:
Thor Base: Continent Level possibly Multi-Continent Level
Mjolnir Awakened: Multi-Continent Level
 
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Speed is rated as "Possibly infinite" on the profiles already, and time manipulation is nearly entirely contradicted, so I agree with it staying as-is.

Raiden should be equal to Tandava Karma, at bare minimum comparable. He still damaged Shiva, and took multiple hits, the only one that seemed to really damage him was when he kicked Raiden's arm when he intercepted the 2nd Yatagarasu.

Also, Heimdall is almost completely unreliable. He said Zeus was omnipotent at least twice iirc.

I think Jack should at least partially scale to Hercules. He took a few direct hits without being damaged, and once he started actually fighting he was fighting without being flung. He should also scale reaction & combat speed wise since he's almost always able to register Heracles' attacks and dodge, block, or counter.

Jack's physicals imo should be at least comparable to Pre-cerberus Heracles, and a bit below Cerberus Heracles.

Otherwise, I agree. That seems solid.
 
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i thought mftl was bunk
I think the argument for MFTL+ at this point is for like Adamas form Zeus because of how much faster that is supposed to be than his base. His hits are considered unavoidable by the gods, who are casually FTL.

It's a bit debatable, but I think that's the argument right now.
 
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and it should be so but there are too many people who are convinced that it is Massively FTL + because of the zeros spreading out of the page and the description of the attacks of Zeus Adamas as "inevitable"
You should probably read my reply. It's never called "inevitable" it's called "unavoidable".
 
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this thread started talking about two things AP and speed, and about that I just have to say this
-Speed
Since we already have a calculation with FTL speeds plus Ares's statement about what the gods can see and not see (which seems more or less valid) I think that all Ragnarok participants are gods or humans should be put as FTL
Agreed
TFTST stuff
Pretty sure it was agreed to not use the infinite at all and just put down MFTL+
Thor: of him we have his states seen his Base and Awakened Mjolnir, of his base we only have what Heimdall said (who is an unreliable narrator in my opinion) and that of the Serpent, the last one I discard because I do not think he can be used to find the power of Thor for nothing
Why is that? The feat is able to be calced so why would we just not use it?
about Mjonir Awakened I will say it again if the Raw does not know mentions the term earth with the kanjis that are used to speak of the bone planet "Chikyū" then it should not be put as a planet level
So long as Thor > Hermes = 5-C, using planet level is fine as that kanji is apparently still able to be used for the planet itself, just more uncommon.
Zeus: I still think that what is shown does not accredit giving it the universe level although seeing that a consensus can not be reached with that I agree to leave it as a possibly, as for its true base I think it should equal or exceed Thor Mjolnir Despondent Being older with Adamas should obviously be superior, equaling or surpassing Shiva Tandava Karma
Why would base Zeus scale above either Mjolnir or Tandava Karma? It has no scaling to either and base Zeus is only shown as superior to base Shiva (pre TK and weight of 1116 gods)
Poseidon: equal to Zeus Base
Poseidon has no scaling to Zeus besides hype. All of the scaling relies on Adamas thinking Poseidon would let him win against Zeus despite having a giant army that he believes can’t beat Zeus but he proceeds to immediately try and fight Poseidon. Adamas doesn’t have a clue how strong Zeus actually is and he certainly doesn’t have a clue how strong Poseidon is.
Hercules: the base of him should match Zeus Base and be greater with his works
Base Zeus > base Herc
Jack: no idea, his base should be human level, maybe street or athlete level, with Volund he should be somewhere between Thor Base and Hercules Base
I agree not scaling Jack without using a Volund to Herc since it was stated that he would die if he took a direct hit. With Volunds though, I feel like his AP should scale to Labors Herc since he was still harming that form, even more than before tbh.
Shiva: his base should be equal to or higher than Thor Base but I agree with giving him planet level but only his Tandava Karma Form
I am curious about the reasoning for the bolded.
 

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Maybe somebody knowledgeable could write a good comprehensive summary of the arguments regarding that and post it as a new thread, after which I could ask some staff members to evaluate it?
It doesn't seem like anything will happen here otherwise.
 
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I find really hard to upgrade someone to 5-B based on vague statements without even some feat to support them.
 
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How are the statements vauge?

They are also somewhat consistent and a far weaker character has a casual 5-C feat (Hermès.)
 
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Yes it was. There wasn’t an end in sight for the infinite vs time stop so it was agreed that both wouldn’t be used. If you really wanna push for infinite again then we are back at square one.
 
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Yes it was. There wasn’t an end in sight for the infinite vs time stop so it was agreed that both wouldn’t be used. If you really wanna push for infinite again then we are back at square one.
No, we just never actually came to an agreement. Time Stop was contradicted, so it was dropped, then the debate turned into if we should have Infinite on the profile, and there wasn’t an agreement reached.

It comes off as biased to just say that when that isn’t what happened at all. Nobody agreed to just not use either.
 
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Since we are really doing this song and dance again, contradicted by what?

Nobody? Weird then since I seem to very clearly recall Ion vehemently arguing for neither to be used.
 
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Since we are really doing this song and dance again, contradicted by what?
The effects of the supposed time stop didn’t happen later again when the move was used at bare minimum 2 more times.
Nobody? Weird then since I seem to very clearly recall Ion vehemently arguing for neither to be used.
Fine, bit of a hyperbole. Ion didn’t prove anything about why Possibly Infinite shouldn’t be used either way.
 
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Those same effects that were shown for what you interpret as infinite speed? That contradiction goes both ways.
Infinite speed is not completely reliant on these effects, and the effects were literally the 2nd biggest argument for time stop. The contradiction doesn’t go both ways, the only way you can argue that is by saying using infinite speed would have similar effects, but it was never a main argument and is by no means a requirement.
 
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The only reason that a conclusion hasn’t been reached on this specific subject is that people (such as Anonymous) are bringing up old points from multiple pages ago, which have long been addressed.
 
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No. You don’t get to dismiss something when it gets half a chapter showing its effects when you were arguing that Ares having a whole segment to explain what he couldn’t see can’t be dismissed because he had said segment specifically meant to detail what he couldn’t see. Just like that, the visuals getting half a chapter will not be summed up as some “artistic liberty” just because the author didn’t apply the visuals to a panel that includes multiple other techniques. Are we to say Meteor Jab and Divine Axe are no longer the same stuff as before just because we don’t see the meteors or the axe that was shown when Zeus and Adam previously used them? No so don’t try pull that here.

Seeing as the argument has always been that Zeus got it from time itself and the narrator is the only one who ever gives anything like an explanation for the ability which points to it being time manip. The visuals is only the cherry on top.

Let’s not pin this on me. I’m not the one who wanted to revisit this topic when both were concluded to not be usable.
 
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No. You don’t get to dismiss something when it gets half a chapter showing its effects when you were arguing that Ares having a whole segment to explain what he couldn’t see can’t be dismissed because he had said segment specifically meant to detail what he couldn’t see. Just like that, the visuals getting half a chapter will not be summed up as some “artistic liberty” just because the author didn’t apply the visuals to a panel that includes multiple other techniques. Are we to say Meteor Jab and Divine Axe are no longer the same stuff as before just because we don’t see the meteors or the axe that was shown when Zeus and Adam previously used them? No so don’t try pull that here.
It was one of the main arguments for it. That’s why it didn’t work. The Kanji of the move is there on the page, meaning the move had been used.

The reason it didn’t work is because one of the main arguments for time stop was literally the artistic choice. If it’s not consistent, which it isn’t, then it doesn’t work. Also, Divine Axe is actually shown on the panel as a kick in it’s original use and in their clash later.
Seeing as the argument has always been that Zeus got it from time itself and the narrator is the only one who ever gives anything like an explanation for the ability which points to it being time manip. The visuals is only the cherry on top.
The narrator states that there’s a rumor. The direct quote is

“The mere mention of it’s name IS SAID to exert control over all of time”

All this does is prove that there’s rumors that the move controls time, this doesn’t even mean anything as nobody would know how the move works.
Let’s not pin this on me. I’m not the one who wanted to revisit this topic when both were concluded to not be usable.
It was never concluded. 1 singular member said that neither should be used, and didn’t prove why, and never disproved my arguments as to why it should stay.
 
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YOU YOURSELF argued the artistic choice argument earlier in the thread, and, for the reason i’ve had to repeat, it doesn’t work.

Stop being hypocritical with this.
 

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I see no evidence that he literally moved the moon / the sun to make it dark. I'm sorry.

They're not even on Earth they're on Heaven and we don't know how day / night works there. This to me is no different than the Arena changing to become flooded or transforming into London for the Sasaki Kojiro and Jack the Ripper fights respectively.
 
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How ignore dura? I know it said can pierce any defense, but pierce in this state more like potency or sharpness of its than a form of durable negation.
The Valkyrie's ability allows Lu Bu's attacks to be effective against defenses/shields, bypassing the defenses/shields defense. which i s a form of Dura Neg
 
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Where the part mentioned about bypassing defense? I just saw only "shield breaker".
Her name is shield breaker, which is her ability to damage/break defense much easier than normal, which is essentially bypassing its defense. Its not one of those directly saying it moments.
 
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I see no evidence that he literally moved the moon / the sun to make it dark. I'm sorry.

They're not even on Earth they're on Heaven and we don't know how day / night works there. This to me is no different than the Arena changing to become flooded or transforming into London for the Sasaki Kojiro and Jack the Ripper fights respectively.
^^^ This

The best on-panel feats are Tier 7 ... There should be no discussion of upgrading to Tier 5 based just on hype statements
 
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Also, the mythological event that is Shiva's Tandav - is the destruction of the Universe, rather than just the planet. It could even be Multiversal destruction because there is a story in the Ramayan which references parallel universes : mound of rings

Not related to anything. Just an interesting tidbit of Indian mythology
 
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Looking back over the Shiva stuff, if we are taking the “sustains the Ganges” as a literal feat, will be doing the same with Shiva’s introduction as Bhairava of the Cosmos (Bhairava translating to “he who creates, sustains and destroys”)?

Edit: Speaking of sustaining feats, doesn’t the recent thread on them make the Ganges null since we now need a bunch of proof that it will be immediately destroyed without X sustaining it?
 
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Can somebody remind me what is left to do here please?
 
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I believe we're finished now? It seems that everything has been wrapped up, but I may be wrong. If I am, i'd definitely prefer if someone corrected me.
 
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I believe we're finished now? It seems that everything has been wrapped up, but I may be wrong. If I am, i'd definitely prefer if someone corrected me.
People ask if the tier 5 is really valable since the 5-C feat is not proved since we see nowhere that the moon/sun were moved and that the 5-B are like title and hype
 
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Ah, ok. Well, Shiva's 5-B (potentially universal statement according to RoyGundam said) should still work, as it was the narrator.

We usually consider narrator statements legitimate, as it's the omniscient narrator and there's no reason the narrator would make hype statements, he's there to explain what's going on and give lore.

Do we just put Shiva at "at least 5-B, possibly 3-A"? It just says "universe", and the cosmology is vague, so that might be the safest option.
 

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5-B should be fine, but universal power seems exaggerated based on what we have seen so far.
 
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5-B should be fine, but universal power seems exaggerated based on what we have seen so far.
We do have Zeus and Adam at possibly low 2-C for the big bang things, so I think a "possibly" on 3-A is reasonable.

If it doesn't get agreed on, that's fine, it's just a "possibly" anyway.
 

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PossIbly Low 2-C seems exaggerated for Zeus and Adam as well, especially if this verse treats the big bang as a physical energy explosion, which is just 3-A in its totality.
 
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Do you suggest we change the profiles to possibly 3-A? If so, we might want to get other members who are knowledgeable on the verse to give their opinions, as that was a pretty big deal iirc.

I was never involved in that discussion, I just remember it being a big discussion.
 
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Do you suggest we change the profiles to possibly 3-A? If so, we might want to get other members who are knowledgeable on the verse to give their opinions, as that was a pretty big deal iirc.
Why even zeus and adam have low 2-C thing? It's stated or tell nowhere that zeus tanked or made the big bang
 
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Actually it was chapter 40, but ya I guess if there using some mythology stuff then I guess it should be somewhat legit I guess
Edit: also appertly his first technique(the dance) was supposed to bring about the destruction of the world

7742559-3449d769-90ff-4567-9dad-990dcbfa45fb.png

So there’s that to
And that thing is pretty much a hype it's like the narrator talk about a prophecy than a real thing + with what we have see i don't even understand how you guy thing this is legit.
 
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And? He can be here and have see it from the outside, so was not in the range of the big bang, it's a really big assumption for me...
He's a battler, why would he consider it a thrill? He's never shown to care for visuals, and he consistently is shown having fun because of fights, and is sometimes portrayed as masochistic and sadistic.

It's a pretty massive assumption to say he just... viewed it from the outside of the universe.

And that thing is pretty much a hype it's like the narrator talk about a prophecy than a real thing + with what we have see i don't even understand how you guy thing this is legit.
The narrator doesn't give hype statements. I've explained this already.
 
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He's a battler, why would be consider it a thrill? He's never shown to care for visuals, and he consistently is shown having fun because of fights, and is sometimes portrayed as masochistic and sadistic.

It's a pretty massive assumption to say he just... viewed it from the outside of the universe.


The narrator doesn't give hype statements. I've explained this already.
How can this be an assumption when we don't even know if the heaven is in the universe?, Not because he have fun because of fight that it show that he was here when the big bang was created and not because he don't usually care for visual that it will be the same here, the big bang is like the only big thing he have surely see.



The universal don't existed at that time so yeah except you tell he was particularly in the exact range if the big band i don't understand why you guy would asumme that he was here.
 
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For the narrator you just tell that we considere it usually being valable, but here when he talked about most if the god that was just thing like title that people use for them or hype like lol he using the final techniques have just add flame to his body.
 
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How can this be an assumption when we don't even know if the heaven is in the universe?, Not because he have fun because of fight that it show that he was here when the big bang was created and not because he don't usually care for visual that it will be the same here, the big bang is like the only big thing he have surely see.



The universal don't existed at that time so yeah except you tell he was particularly in the exact range if the big band i don't understand why you guy would asumme that he was here.
We know heaven is separate from the universe, but i've literally already explained why he wouldn't care if it was just... visuals. You're arguing he thought it was a thrill because he saw it, which just makes literally no sense. It's a much bigger assumption to say he wasn't there, with much bigger leaps in logic.
 
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For the narrator you just tell that we considere it usually being valable, but here when he talked about most if the god that was just thing like title that people use for them or hype like lol he using the final techniques have just add flame to his body.
The Omniscient Narrator doesn't lie, and doesn't give hype statements.

Also, visuals don't mean that's all it did. It added flames, but it was also a power boost.
 
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We know heaven is separate from the universe, but i've literally already explained why he wouldn't care if it was just... visuals. You're arguing he thought it was a thrill because he saw it, which just makes literally no sense. It's a much bigger assumption to say he wasn't there, with much bigger leaps in logic.
Why it would be not a thrill just because he doesn't care for visual in the common thing? Not like the creation of the universe is a common thing, even more when this statement was made from the present, at this time he could have been impressed or even that the creation for the universe was the only thrill thing for him


You guy have like to prove that he was not in heaven for that
 
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Why it would be not a thrill just because he doesn't care for visual in the common thing? Not like the creation of the universe is a common thing, even more when this statement was made from the present, at this time he could have been impressed or even that the creation for the universe was the only thrill thing for him
That's literally a massive assumption, for the reasons i've already given.
You guy have like to prove that he was not in heaven for that
This is a complete non-argument, dude. It only works under the assumption that he considered the big bang a thrill because he viewed it from an outside perspective, which goes against his character, and context from the story.
 
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Also, why would Zeus compare the thrill of the fight to the Big Bang if he wasn't there? Why would he compare a physical brawl to a cool looking visual??
 
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He doesn't go against his character except if you know his character from some billion year. The context of the story just talk about him having a thrill when the big bang have appear no even one intention show for him to have tank this phenomenon, he will just directly if he had to it.

It's a biggest assumption to tell that he was outside the heaven for this, when we doesn't even know if they can live outside an universe.

I will stop to talk about it since i have to sleep but for le all of this is just trying to wank from thing we don't even know exactly and i don't know how much thread were refused for that.
 
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He doesn't go against his character except if you know his character from some billion year. The context of the story just talk about him having a thrill when the big bang have appear no even one intention show for him to have tank this phenomenon, he will just directly if he had to it.
His character loves fighting, pain, is masochistic, and sadistic.
It's a biggest assumption to tell that he was outside the heaven for this, when we doesn't even know if they can live outside an universe.
No, not really.
I will stop to talk about it since i have to sleep but for le all of this is just trying to wank from thing we don't even know exactly and i don't know how much thread were refused for that.
You're accusing me of wank? I could claim you're just trying to downplay Zeus and Adam with backwards and inconsistent logic.

You're using multiple fallacious arguments, there's no reason for you to claim wank other than your bias against it.
 
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