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The issue with scaling to direct feats in RoR is that they aren't important to the story, feats aren't the focus of RoR the themes and the story itself.
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Goodbye Record of Ragnarok Level 5 and FLT
- Thread starter Demon_Lord18
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XSOULOFCINDERX
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Bump.
Demon_Lord18
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I'm busy with other things at the moment
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AgreeableWell, let's start by quoting the statement that “Thor” can destroy the “earth” by using “Mjonir” which is interpreted as the “Planet” thus escalating it to Planetary, which is wrong to use this way, and I'll show you why…
The Japanese phrase “大地をも打ち砕く最強の神器也” can be translated into English as “The strongest divine weapon that breaks even the earth”.
But the kanji used for earth in the phrase is not used to refer to the Planet, when referring to the planet the 地球 is used instead of the 大地.
So, yes, I think all the characters should leave level 5.
The verse would be downgraded to the multicontinental level, assuming it was referring to the whole planet
References for Common Feats
Throughout fiction and real life, there have been numerous feats demonstrating a certain character's or object's destructive power. This page's purpose is to consolidate calculations for those feats for better convenience in determining an object's or character's Attack Potency or Durability...vsbattles.fandom.com
Now let's move on to speed.
Adam & Zeus (Record of Ragnarok) Speed Redone
Time is not speed, speed can be greater, but for that to happen the distance needs to be greater in less time or the time needs to be less proportionally, his movement is much less than on the previous page. The distance Zeus covered in the feats always changes, the amount of punches and movement itself, he would have to throw the exact same punch with the time decreasing every second, and if you're going to use the time of the first feat then it's illogical to use the lightning speed quote or close to it.
This also goes against the manga, which places Apollo's SoL attack as the fastest in Heaven
It would be wrong to escalate Zeus to FTL with this quote that he would defend himself against this arrow, since the distance between them must also be considered.
Moments after Zeus finished his “combo”, Adam used the same attacks with the same speed on Zeus and he only managed to dodge the first attack, and with great difficulty, while all the others hit him.
So, to me, this statement seems a bit exaggerated.
Concordo : CharlesZaGreat, Blackcurrant91 (Agrees with downgrading due to lack of level 5 evidence), Greatsage13th, Damage3245 , DaReaperMan, DarkDragonMedeus , DarlingAurora, Robespierre_Isidore[/USER ], [USER=12353]PrinceofPein, Shadow_x007x, The_one_you_least_expect (Agrees with downgrading level 5), Qawsedf234 (Agrees with downgrading level 5)
Discordo : DavidTPPM, Giannysmag (Disagrees with downgrading level 5), PowerToScale, The_Smashor(Disagrees with the speed downgrade), Qawsedf234 (Disagrees with the speed downgrade)
Neutro : Aseka(neutral to agree with Earth interpretation),DarkDragonMedeus(neutral and leaning towards disagreeing with speed downgrade looking at the OP and counterarguments.), Giannysmag (neutral when it comes to speed), The_one_you_least_expect (neutral when it comes to speed)
note²:I've just edited the post to add who is agreeing or disagreeing, nothing else has been changed.
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It's clear a downgrade is required but to what seems to not be settled.
Is the Lu Bu feat not useable?
Is the Lu Bu feat not useable?
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Lü Bu and Thor directly scale off each other, the problem is the rest of the cast
The other characters do have their own individual feats, they're just not that high
The other characters do have their own individual feats, they're just not that high
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Every ragnarok scales above Lu bu (without volund) and all of humanity and its advancements, given that the ragnarok gods and humans w/o volund is viewed so vast it might be best to go with unknown of downgrading.
Ragnarok gods = in the tournament (as all gods aren't equal in strength I.e. demons God qin fought)
Ragnarok gods = in the tournament (as all gods aren't equal in strength I.e. demons God qin fought)
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Why would every fighter upscale from Lu Bu’s strongest strike in life? The only ones that would for certain are Thor, Raiden and maybe TK Shiva. Thor for obvious reasons, TK Shiva from scaling above Raiden (though Raiden’s muscles were burned and weakened at that point) and Raiden via having the strongest muscles in humanity. Volunds only bring out the fighter’s potential but Raiden only gained the ability to control the strength he already had, implying that he was already at his max strength without muscle manip.
Other humans already troll gods in terms of strength (stats in general) without Volunds such as Qin to Chiyou and Ares (these count because he needs to be relative to the attack to deflect it), Nostradamus with the Bifrost and being able to kill the Tartarus guards (who are meant to stop stuff like the Titans during the Gigantomachy), Adam with the courtroom guards and Serpent etc. These guys all scale below Raiden and both they and the Ragnarok fighters (that I didn’t mention in the first paragraph) have nothing that actually scales them above or to living Lu Bu in anyway, Qin especially.
In regards to Ragnarok, gods scaling above humans is due to their Divine Weapons as human weapons would just break against them by default but that still doesn’t apply to Lu Bu as he obliterates his weapons upon use. Like, Qin’s human made finger accessories can withstand the force of his Volund amped strength to harm Hades or Jack (who we know can shove his hands through Herc’s chest) doesn’t destroy his non amped scalpels when he throws them at Herc until they connect, which goes to show that even after performing Volund, they haven’t reached Lu Bu’s level.
Other humans already troll gods in terms of strength (stats in general) without Volunds such as Qin to Chiyou and Ares (these count because he needs to be relative to the attack to deflect it), Nostradamus with the Bifrost and being able to kill the Tartarus guards (who are meant to stop stuff like the Titans during the Gigantomachy), Adam with the courtroom guards and Serpent etc. These guys all scale below Raiden and both they and the Ragnarok fighters (that I didn’t mention in the first paragraph) have nothing that actually scales them above or to living Lu Bu in anyway, Qin especially.
In regards to Ragnarok, gods scaling above humans is due to their Divine Weapons as human weapons would just break against them by default but that still doesn’t apply to Lu Bu as he obliterates his weapons upon use. Like, Qin’s human made finger accessories can withstand the force of his Volund amped strength to harm Hades or Jack (who we know can shove his hands through Herc’s chest) doesn’t destroy his non amped scalpels when he throws them at Herc until they connect, which goes to show that even after performing Volund, they haven’t reached Lu Bu’s level.
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Raiden only scales to Lü Bu's lifting strength due to his muscles, not strike strength or ap due to Lü Bu being constantly proclaimed to be humanity's strongest
I agree with you that scaling to base Lü Bu shouldn't be a thing for the entire cast since there's no basis for it. If we're having difficulty scaling characters, we could downgrade with unknown for now (Or at least Wall level since a majority have feat in that range, such as Kojirō (This calc was accepted a while ago by the way), Jack the Ripper (Scales off of Humpty Dumpty), Raiden (Massively above other sumo wrestlers in his era while holding back), Tesla (Was able to carve the ground of his area during his fight with Beelzebub), and Okita (Scales higher than several characters in Shinsengumi Requiem who are at this level). Leonidas scales to his own feat and Qin Shi Huang can potentially scale to Ares physically (I don't doubt he's superior to his, but Ares also got visibly hurt by Göll in the same scene so I could've just been for comedic sake), Qin Shi Huang also survived attacks from Hades and Chi You.
Adam and Zeus are the most difficult to scale due to a lack of direct feats. Adam can get wall level as well for cutting the Serpent apart and knocking that large guard unconscious. True God's Right is stated to be the strongest strike (If someone wants to check what that says in Japanese, be my guest) so maybe he can scale above Thor and Lü Bu in his Adamas form only.
In his youth, Shiva was able to create massive shockwaves while fighting Rudra (That maybe have also cleared the clouds in the area) and also severely reduced the peak of Svarga (Though this was over a long period of time). Both him and Rudra's sweat became heavy rain from how hard they fought as well. Rudra is strong enough to create imprint with his fists in a stone wall
During round 6, Pāpīyas created a storm upon his rebirth (I once mentioned this and someone stated that it can probably listed down as weather manipulation). He also smashes through Buddha's Six Realm's Staff and pierced through Asura Realm, Avalokitesvara: Shield of Ahimusa (Wall level for both).
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Fair enough on the Raiden thing I guess. At that point, Shiva vs Rudra is probably the best they are gonna get, Zeus and Adam should at least be whatever the hell Herc has since he was toppling and tanking buildings, maybe scale above Poseidon’s KE from being gigafast? Or scale everyone above Dong Zhuo since the same Lu Bu that tossed around 2 metre wide boulders like softballs didn’t just floor him on the spot? It might be consistent with Leo’s feats in life.
If weather feats are valid for scaling (not too sure since we don’t have a UES), Herc summoning Cerberus is a thing as well cuz it’s presence created a storm too iirc and he literally uses Cerberus as an amp. All Greek fighters would then scale since Typhon (strongest Greek monster) and an army of other stuff including Titans listen to Adamas because of his strength and … well he is high key trash to all of them besides Hades (I’ll die on this hill lol). Hades stills scales above the big doggo since Heimdall brings up that it’s kind of a wuss to Hades.
If weather feats are valid for scaling (not too sure since we don’t have a UES), Herc summoning Cerberus is a thing as well cuz it’s presence created a storm too iirc and he literally uses Cerberus as an amp. All Greek fighters would then scale since Typhon (strongest Greek monster) and an army of other stuff including Titans listen to Adamas because of his strength and … well he is high key trash to all of them besides Hades (I’ll die on this hill lol). Hades stills scales above the big doggo since Heimdall brings up that it’s kind of a wuss to Hades.
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Everyone Ragnarok fighter god scales above Human Lu Bu's strike because they are stated to be stronger than him and humanity entirely, that's the whole point of the story, and Brunhilde directly resorts to Volunds to increase the fighters to their truest potential. The whole point of the Volunds is to physically amp fighters to reach the god's level and have a fighting chance. No human without Volund can match any of the named fighter gods in strength, speed, etc...
The only humans from memory are Adam (because he was created in God's image) and Qin Shi who fought a lesser god and was only able to harm Ares because of his energy/attack redirection martial arts, using their strength against them. Raiden's strength comes from the Volund physical amp and his ability to control his muscles, that's the whole point of it he can control it and not destroy himself because of it.
Again scaling the Record of Ragnarok based on feats alone is quite dumb. The writers have constrained themselves into settings that are unsuitable for them and use the statements to convey the god's strengths. They also use the backstories to connect the audience with the characters rather than just blowing stuff up so that manga wouldn't be dull and have real substance. You also overlook the distinction between attack potency and destructive capability, which allow a character to reach a specific level without necessarily exhibiting feats appropriate for that level.
The primary source of scale = Statements made directly by the authors or through their characters
The secondary source of scale = Feats that are done and if they match statements
This was something that was already agreed upon with a staff member last time after understanding the nature of this verse's story and writing.
With a Record of Ragnarok scaling you have to take into account things like the nature of the story, the setting's structure, the purpose of elements like flashbacks, the statements regarding characters, etc. And if you fail to understand those aspects you won't be able to properly scale the series.
The only humans from memory are Adam (because he was created in God's image) and Qin Shi who fought a lesser god and was only able to harm Ares because of his energy/attack redirection martial arts, using their strength against them. Raiden's strength comes from the Volund physical amp and his ability to control his muscles, that's the whole point of it he can control it and not destroy himself because of it.
Again scaling the Record of Ragnarok based on feats alone is quite dumb. The writers have constrained themselves into settings that are unsuitable for them and use the statements to convey the god's strengths. They also use the backstories to connect the audience with the characters rather than just blowing stuff up so that manga wouldn't be dull and have real substance. You also overlook the distinction between attack potency and destructive capability, which allow a character to reach a specific level without necessarily exhibiting feats appropriate for that level.
The primary source of scale = Statements made directly by the authors or through their characters
The secondary source of scale = Feats that are done and if they match statements
This was something that was already agreed upon with a staff member last time after understanding the nature of this verse's story and writing.
With a Record of Ragnarok scaling you have to take into account things like the nature of the story, the setting's structure, the purpose of elements like flashbacks, the statements regarding characters, etc. And if you fail to understand those aspects you won't be able to properly scale the series.
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Downgrading the gods to 9-C because of their feats despite the story telling us directly that they are stronger than all humans without Volunds and anything that humanity has to offer is frankly lmao
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And this repeatedly proven wrong.
No. Volund is so that the humans have weapons that can stand up to Divine Weapons. Brun never even brings up the Volunds amping people, that was Loki talking about Shared Destiny. Absolutely nothing even hints at her even being aware of it.
This is patently false.
- Adam being made in god’s image is where he Divine Reflection comes from and his stats are independent of this.
- Qin fought with Chiyou for 6 days straight before completing his Chiyou martial art. That means that he was capable of fighting a god before he had his attack reflection.
- Qin needs to be relative to his opponent physically to use HHoD as seen when he was using it successfully against base Hades before Hades just amped to overpower it. This means that no Volund Qin was flooring Ares with Ares not even being able to see his movements.
- Raiden doesn’t get amped by the Volund, just became able to use his muscles without hurting himself. Hell, even before releasing the seals that kept his muscles from harming himself, he still harmed Shiva before the muscle control came into play.
- Nostradamus was destroying part of the Bifrost well before he got a Volund as well and Brun straight up says he could have killed the gods guarding Tartarus to leave if he wanted, again before he had a Volund.
- When Zeus watches Lu Bu harm Thor, he never brings up how a human could hurt a god but how a human weapon could withstand a strike from a Divine Weapon. When he realises it’s because of a Volund, both he and Hermes talk about how Valkyries become Divine Weapons and not how they amp humans.
- In R4, Herc only talks about how human weapons can’t harm him and not that humans can’t, Something that happens before Loki and Buddha reveal the other traits of Shared Destiny.
Being a lesser god is irrelevant. If you concede Qin harmed a god without a Volund, your entire argument falls apart since not only is there nothing saying humans can’t harm gods without a Volund, there is definitely nothing that says stronger gods/Ragnarok fighters can’t be harmed by humans without Volund.
Yes and this thread has three staff saying that the statements we used for scaling aren’t valid. I’d prefer tier 5 stays but unless we get smth new, it’s gone. Without that, everyone needs to scale to their own stuff since we basically don’t have any cross scaling between rounds now that we lack Ares downscaling Zeus and Herc who everyone scales above.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Bump.
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I’m pretty sure are main source for 5-b stuff is shiva which isn’t mentioned in the op. I’m pretty sure that isn’t are only source for cross scaling
Demon_Lord18
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This was debated in the comments.
The moderators saw the arguments and counterarguments about Shiva and continued to agree with the downgrade
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The mods came up with there own justification for disagreeing(which is a bit weird in hindsight) but whatever
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How so many people voted when the thread didn’t addressed all the accepted reason for their ratings?
Thor also is Capable of defeating Jörmungandr the World Serpent in a single strike[4]
which is a snake capable to be as big as planets, while it isnt show in the manga is still called the world serpent which is enough to assume it is the one from mythology size, given the name world serpent, unless u have explicit proof contradicting it, this is the most simple conclusion
Moreover also on zeus profile, is stated that heaven could be destroyed heaven with his fight with adam, which is again another 5B feat minimum...
shiva statement is a thing too, but I can understand the scepticism around it.
Anyway we can remove the thor shatter the planet thing, but would not really remove the rating, even do all this thing together really build up a 5B narrative so its a matter of contextualise every statement together and not debunking a single one.
But I kinda agree for the speed thing, except for Zeus and Poseidon, which are faster by lore and feats of apollo still so FTL (zeus said he is above the arrows + ftl feats on his own, and Poseidon stated to be the top of 13 olympus god and scales to zeus speed and has its own ftl feat too), but yeah u can still apply the statements to other gods to make them slower than Apollo.
Zeus speed >= Poseidon speed > Apollo Speed > every other god speed
Thor also is Capable of defeating Jörmungandr the World Serpent in a single strike[4]
which is a snake capable to be as big as planets, while it isnt show in the manga is still called the world serpent which is enough to assume it is the one from mythology size, given the name world serpent, unless u have explicit proof contradicting it, this is the most simple conclusion
Moreover also on zeus profile, is stated that heaven could be destroyed heaven with his fight with adam, which is again another 5B feat minimum...
shiva statement is a thing too, but I can understand the scepticism around it.
Anyway we can remove the thor shatter the planet thing, but would not really remove the rating, even do all this thing together really build up a 5B narrative so its a matter of contextualise every statement together and not debunking a single one.
But I kinda agree for the speed thing, except for Zeus and Poseidon, which are faster by lore and feats of apollo still so FTL (zeus said he is above the arrows + ftl feats on his own, and Poseidon stated to be the top of 13 olympus god and scales to zeus speed and has its own ftl feat too), but yeah u can still apply the statements to other gods to make them slower than Apollo.
Zeus speed >= Poseidon speed > Apollo Speed > every other god speed
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The mythical Snake is 5-A according to the common calc IIRC
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thats true, its 5A, but given in ROR isnt shown apply the 5B lowball following its name on the manga work fine until maybe they show it. For sure its at least 5B.
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That ain't how it works the calc is assumed to be for any snake that is indeed a snake that's world sized, but doesn't have an actual physical appearance to better calc some of it's dimensions, so it'd be 5-A if we indeed take the Snake as a world serpent, which would be a upgrade. Which would need it's own thread.
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the upgrade yeah, but its already accepted as 5B on thor profile so
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Then it needs to changed if it's indeed accepted already that the ROR Snake is a World serpent size one.
Demon_Lord18
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The snake of the world is just its name, we don't even know how big it really is.
The sky is made up of islands, man, how could that be at least 5-B?
This feat of Shiva's is problematic.
We don't have the time when he would destroy the world, we don't have the time when the world would be rebuilt and this ability kills him.
This was addressed in the comment
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No, assuming the size of the world serpent without statements is silly
Heaven is of unknown size
As we have gone over in the thread, all the 5-B stuff are statements either from in verse religious texts and are contradicted by the actual feats the characters have shown
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No? heaven size its shown at least as equal as earth.
Not sure why pushing so much to downplay it.
and again those thing as already accepted on the profiles as 5B reasonings, can u guys at leats read them before making post?
"No, assuming the size of the world serpent without statements is silly"
the statement is literally the name, it called the same in ROR, assuming its smaller than a planet when in myth is like that, and its called by its SIZE in ROR is no sensical. Instead prove how the name should be inconsistent if anything.
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Demon_Lord18
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Did you even read the comments on this CRT?
This was never done to compare the size of the worlds, but to show more clearly how the cosmology of a mythology works. They needed to represent the worlds in some way
We don't use myths or even nomenclature to build up characters, otherwise Shiva would be universal.
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this is never stated, they show the diagram with similar size of ech world, if you dont what to accept it to lowball heaven size to some islands its ur thing tho.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Bump.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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What's left to do here again?
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Probably just finding new tiers to place the characters at
I feel like, for the moment, we can do city level+ for Lü Bu and Thor, Small building for Leonidas and Apollo, and then wall level for everyone else
I feel like, for the moment, we can do city level+ for Lü Bu and Thor, Small building for Leonidas and Apollo, and then wall level for everyone else
Fallen_Angelicx
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The God Tiers would be 7-A right?
XSOULOFCINDERX
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Shouldn't Zeus and Adam scale above everyone else since they're the strongest guys on either side?
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The gods outscale humans (old and new) in their entirety, everyone would just upscale from city level if downgraded.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I suppose so considering the Gods didn't even believe any of the humans could harm them whatsoever, though that's kind of janky when you think about how some of the fights played out when not all of the attacks thrown even used the Volundrs.
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All fights in the arena are done via volund, every fighter has volund as they enter the arena (besides Buddha since it's god v god). So far, no confirmed fighter has entered the arena without a volund.
They only instances that volund has been used was Adam (basically a god) and Qin shi who fought a lesser god (as we know the raganrok gods are the mightiest like shiva and Zeus who are world busters) and Ares via using his own body and moment via the redirection martial arts.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I'm talking about stuff like Leonidas headbutting Apollo and hurting him doing that which doesn't even use his Volundr.
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Volunds aren't just the weapons if that's why you are thinking. They amp the user as a whole, power, durability, speed etc... they weapons they get are just their most preferred method of combat.
Giannysmag
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This is correct, Volund is what allows humans to fight the gods by bringing out their full potential, Loki says so while talking to Buddha.
I think the gods outscaling human LuBu and then the volund amp humans scaling to that is fine. Also iirc Shiva has a feat of making a mountain sized shockwave with Ruddra, so that can be used for support.
Giannysmag
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For what it's worth, even if we don't scale everyone to LuBu I don't think anyone is gonna be wall level
- As mentioned before Shiva and Rudra make a mountain sized shockwave which i calced offsite to be High 7-C (probably a lowball mind you)
- Tesla creates a huge beam that reaches the clouds which i also calc offsite to be 7-C (Beelzebub is hit dierctly by this btw)
- Heracles creates several large craters in his fight and London ends up looking like this by the end of it
- Heracles also survives a divine building dropping on him, which then shatters
- Hades shatters the entire arena with a single strike without Desmos
- Hajun destroyed half of Helheim, which at the absolute least would mean destroying buildings and wiping out cities
- Zero destroyed large chuncks of the arena and his ultimate attack is this, which Buddha easily blocks with his shield
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