Reactive evolution redraft

[Theglassman12]

So this has been on my mind for some time. To put it blunt, the current state of Reactive evolution is baffling to me and feels so half assed. For starters this part here.

It would be a No Limits Fallacy to assume someone with this power can obtain any ability whatsoever. Its extent and complexity only go as far its feats and scaling have gone for it, in relation up to countermeasures to powers that already exist in the setting or similar, in a case by case basis.

This not only feels very limiting in terms of what the ability can do but it offers little to no solution regarding the NLF beyond a simple "case by case basis", which can just lead into a bunch of back and forth about countless different characters with what their Reactive Evolution is supposed to be in the first place, which in turn can lead to a lot of needless headaches for an ability vaguely elaborated upon on its potential. It's the equivalent of only having a general explanation for Immortality on its page and not elaborated on the different types of Immortality there is. To address this issue, I've made a redraft for Reactive evolution where it essentially expands the ability into several types as well as two different applications for what version of Evolution is being done.

Agree: 11 (Serlock, DarkDragonMedeus, Oliver, SYPH, KLOL, Stefano, Planck, Pariah, Lightning, Jordan, Dark Soul)

Disagree: 6 (Armorchompy, Bambu, DontTalk [mostly on removing the NLF part], ThanatosX, Bobsican, Ultima Reality)

Neutral:

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

So this has been on my mind for some time. To put it blunt, the current state of Reactive evolution is baffling to me and feels so half assed. For starters this part here.



This not only feels very limiting in terms of what the ability can do but it offers little to no solution regarding the NLF beyond a simple "case by case basis", which can just lead into a bunch of back and forth about countless different characters with what their Reactive Evolution is supposed to be in the first place, which in turn can lead to a lot of needless headaches for an ability vaguely elaborated upon on its potential. It's the equivalent of only having a general explanation for Immortality on its page and not elaborated on the different types of Immortality there is. To address this issue, I've made a redraft for Reactive evolution where it essentially expands the ability into several types as well as two different applications for what version of Evolution is being done.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

I agree that this needs to happen. Would trying to fit the feats of reactive evolution in speed of adaptability be too much?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks pretty good to me so far.

 

[Andika_CL_atmadja]

how about RE for dimensionality ? is it too much ? basically 4 D to 5 D via RE

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

This is good

how about RE for dimensionality ? is it too much ? basically 4 D to 5 D via RE

I sure that would fall into the type Metaphysical

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Metaphysical is based due to having the best lizard ever written.

 

[SYPHe5D]

i agrée with the thread.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Wouldn't this thread be better in staff discussion?

 

[KLOL506]

This looks amazing. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

 

[KLOL506]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Planck69 @Emirp sumitpo @LordTracer @KingTempest @DemonGodMitchAubin @UchihaSlayer96 @LephyrTheRevanchist @Moritzva @Lonkitt @CrimsonStarFallen @DarkGrath @Elizhaa @SamanPatou @Mr._Bambu @Celestial_Pegasus @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @Everything12 @Qawsedf234 @Abstractions @Sir_Ovens @ByAsura @Starter_Pack @Just_a_Random_Butler @Agnaa Your thoughts on this thread would be appreciated.

 

[Stefano4444]

Fully agree, this its a definite improvement.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

So this has been on my mind for some time. To put it blunt, the current state of Reactive evolution is baffling to me and feels so half assed. For starters this part here.



This not only feels very limiting in terms of what the ability can do but it offers little to no solution regarding the NLF beyond a simple "case by case basis", which can just lead into a bunch of back and forth about countless different characters with what their Reactive Evolution is supposed to be in the first place, which in turn can lead to a lot of needless headaches for an ability vaguely elaborated upon on its potential. It's the equivalent of only having a general explanation for Immortality on its page and not elaborated on the different types of Immortality there is. To address this issue, I've made a redraft for Reactive evolution where it essentially expands the ability into several types as well as two different applications for what version of Evolution is being done.

Agree:

Disagree:

Neutral:

I also want to ask some questions.

I think it's good to share since someone who adapts to poison would not be able to adapt to soul manipulation.

But I wanted to ask about NLF.

I always found it a little strange that you were limited to what you demonstrated. Like, you demonstrated reactive evolution, but I've seen people saying that it would be NFL to say that you would adapt to something that you never demonstrated.

Like someone who was affected by mind manipulation and shortly after no longer. In this type of case, I've seen people saying that it would be NFL saying that it could adapt to another hax of the same type (immaterial or material on your blog)

For example, we have Woody.

• Reactive Evolution (He was no longer affected by the mind control[12] that previously controlled him[12])

It would fall as immaterial in your proposal.

But his reactive evolution would be extended to other immaterial or material things.

Or just for mind manipulation? Like, he has reactive evolution, but only for mind manipulation.

 

[KLOL506]

The whole limitation thing is bollocks essentially, and not accurately defined by the current page we have. The new draft aims to fix that completely.

 

[Armorchompy]

This not only feels very limiting in terms of what the ability can do but it offers little to no solution regarding the NLF beyond a simple "case by case basis", which can just lead into a bunch of back and forth about countless different characters with what their Reactive Evolution is supposed to be in the first place, which in turn can lead to a lot of needless headaches for an ability vaguely elaborated upon on its potential. It's the equivalent of only having a general explanation for Immortality on its page and not elaborated on the different types of Immortality there is. To address this issue, I've made a redraft for Reactive evolution where it essentially expands the ability into several types as well as two different applications for what version of Evolution is being done.

I don't see why the bit about NLF should be removed, though. To me it's pretty fair to say that just because a character can adapt to things, doesn't mean that they can adapt to anything, especially things that are just outside of their wheelhouse. The types help contextualize stuff but saying that just because a character can adapt to resist mindhax, they can adapt to resist soulhax even though that might not even be a thing in their series, just because they're the same "type", seems pretty weird to me.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

The whole limitation thing is bollocks essentially, and not accurately defined by the current page we have. The new draft aims to fix that completely.

So could Woody adapt abilities of the same type as the one he adapted to? In this case it would be immaterial.

 

[Planck69]

Already looked this over before so I agree.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I don't see why the bit about NLF should be removed, though. To me it's pretty fair to say that just because a character can adapt to things, doesn't mean that they can adapt to anything, especially things that are just outside of their wheelhouse. The types help contextualize stuff but saying that just because a character can adapt to resist mindhax, they can adapt to resist soulhax even though that might not even be a thing in their series, just because they're the same "type", seems pretty weird to me.

I agree with that basically. I think the page should be even more specific to include limitations. Moving from one form of hax to another or using energy systems that don't even exist as a form of adaptation is something I disagree with.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I don't see why the bit about NLF should be removed, though. To me it's pretty fair to say that just because a character can adapt to things, doesn't mean that they can adapt to anything, especially things that are just outside of their wheelhouse. The types help contextualize stuff but saying that just because a character can adapt to resist mindhax, they can adapt to resist soulhax even though that might not even be a thing in their series, just because they're the same "type", seems pretty weird to me.

Armor stated my concerns too. The primary change here seems to be removing the notion of it being limited to what it is shown to do- I think that flies in the face of what we should be aiming for. Type adding seems overall unnecessary to me (few abilities actually require types), but this part seems downright harmful.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Armor stated my concerns too. The primary change here seems to be removing the notion of it being limited to what it is shown to do

but wouldn't that make the skill almost useless for those who have fewer feats?

for example, Woody only demonstrates mind manipulation.

Could he just adapt to this ability? But he already has resistance to this ability via reactive evolution. So from the moment he acquired resistance, wouldn't reactive evolution be useless?

And in the case of, for example, if it were layered mind manipulation. It would also not fall into the NFL to say that Woody could adapt to any number of layers of mind manipulation because he has reactive evolution to it.

 

[Armorchompy]

but wouldn't that make the skill almost useless for those who have fewer feats?

I would find it acceptable to say he can probably adapt to similar effects that can target his mind (fear, madness, empathic, perception), but just that. So, a little bit, yes, but I find that preferable to saying a character can adapt to things that don't even exist in their own verse.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

but wouldn't that make the skill almost useless for those who have fewer feats?

for example, Woody only demonstrates mind manipulation.

Could he just adapt to this ability? But he already has resistance to this ability via reactive evolution. So from the moment he acquired resistance, wouldn't reactive evolution be useless?

And in the case of, for example, if it were layered mind manipulation. It would also not fall into the NFL to say that Woody could adapt to any number of layers of mind manipulation because he has reactive evolution to it.

I don't think the NFL cares about Woody... Woodpecker, maybe?

It's not really a case of "wouldn't that...", it's a case of it does that currently, and that's how it has always been. VSBW has always taken the more conservative approach (or is meant to) rather than assuming the maximum possible giveout in terms of debating potency for any given ability. If Woody the Woodpecker (possibly) has only shown reactive evolution towards that ability, then I'm afraid he only has it towards that ability.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I would find it acceptable to say he can probably adapt to similar effects that can target his mind (fear, madness, empathic, perception)

That's why the proposal is to divide it into categories, right?

If Woody the Woodpecker (possibly) has only shown reactive evolution towards that ability, then I'm afraid he only has it towards that ability.

And how would he have RE for things involving this ability? Since he already has resistance to it.

Would he have RE for layered mental manipulation? But up to how many layers? Because this could also be NFL.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

And how would he have RE for things involving this ability? Since he already has resistance to it.

Would he have RE for layered mental manipulation? But up to how many layers? Because this could also be NFL.

As we have them now. And I still don't think the NFL cares.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Armor stated my concerns too. The primary change here seems to be removing the notion of it being limited to what it is shown to do- I think that flies in the face of what we should be aiming for. Type adding seems overall unnecessary to me (few abilities actually require types), but this part seems downright harmful.

Also how fast the change comes. Does it takes seconds? hours? days? years? Basically yeah this has some problems in that characters should be locked on types they have already adapted and get more adaptation through statements or something. Like if a character that adapts his strenght has the potential to become the strongest in his verse you could take that as a limit.

 

[Armorchompy]

That's why the proposal is to divide it into categories, right?

Yeah but those are too generic. Just because someone can RPL a new martial technique to counter the enemy doesn't mean they can RPL to overpower a deadly poison but those are in the same categories. Just because someone can RPL being EE'd doesn't mean they can RPL their concept being rewritten.

 

[Hypertornado099]

@Theglassman12 I think you need to list more examples of abilities that would go under Metaphysical and Immaterial. Causality manipulation for type 1 for example, empathic and transmutation/matter manipulation for type 2. I also think adapting to space or time manipulation should be in Metaphysical instead of immaterial, space-time manipulation is closer to reality warping than it is to things like mind manipulation

A note explaining the differences between this and Adaptation would be good too

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Just because someone can RPL being EE'd doesn't mean they can RPL their concept being rewritten.

If their concept also is erased and they can come back I would think that they would actually adapt to rewrite because they target the same thing. I mean they should at least adapt to everything in a category else the abilitiy becomes kinda useless.

 

[Armorchompy]

If their concept also is erased and they can come back I would think that they would actually adapt to rewrite because they target the same thing. I mean they should at least adapt to everything in a category else the abilitiy becomes kinda useless.

They definitely should not. Just because you can power through death hax you can recover from being transmuted? Just because you can resist your soul being destroyed you're immune to illusions? Just because you can shrug off pressure points you're able to create a new fighting style in seconds?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

They definitely should not. Just because you can power through death hax you can recover from being transmuted? Just because you can resist your soul being destroyed you're immune to illusions? Just because you can shrug off pressure points you're able to create a new fighting style in seconds?

I don't think your examples are the same as the concept stuff. Transmutation is something different than death hax and even death hax works in different ways and each way gives you different resistances. The stuff about pressure points and illusion is also the same and not comparable to someone affecting your concept which if you can just bring back you should also be able to rewrite it. I do agree to a certain extent that if this ability is locked way too much is useless and better to just list the resistances.

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't think your examples are the same as the concept stuff. Transmutation is something different than death hax and even death hax works in different ways and each way gives you different resistances. The stuff about pressure points and illusion is also the same and not comparable to someone affecting your concept which if you can just bring back you should also be able to rewrite it. I do agree to a certain extent that if this ability is locked way too much is useless and better to just list the resistances.

My point is that trying to put "types" on this things casts umbrellas too wide and prompts very silly assumptions.

Also I never mentioned in my first post that the EE in my example included conceptual erasure, you were the one that brought that up.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

My point is that trying to put "types" on this things casts umbrellas too wide and prompts very silly assumptions.

Also I never mentioned in my first post that the EE in my example included conceptual erasure, you were the one that brought that up.

Yeah to better connect the ability you said with what you proposed. Existence erasure just on it's own is just fancy vaporization done though hax.

 

[Armorchompy]

yeah

 

[Stefano4444]

Another thing that had come to my mind.

Possible Uses

Offensive: This version allows the user to adapt to the situation by gaining new abilities on the fly, or making their established abilities become much stronger than normal.

Defensive: This version grants the user the ability to strengthen their defensive measures against abilities, mostly in the form of gaining a resistance to an ability that would otherwise be lethal, or strengthening their already established resistances to be much more powerful than normal.

I think instead of Possible Uses it should be rewrite as Types.

Since someone who can evolve to develop resistances/immunities doesn't necessarely mean that it can also develop new abilities/powers.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

RE represents potential to evolve, not just what you had evolved against and what you will be limited to. If we can accurately index the avenues, degrees and potential through which a character can evolve, we are off to a good start. Our current standards force inaccuracies onto characters by limiting their potential.

This blog attempts to do that via categorization of haxes/resistances under similar properties.
So that if a character shows adaptation to one ability under a category, they can probably evolve against another ability in same category.
Which is fine logic.

I also understand where @Armorchompy & @Mr._Bambu is coming from. That is abilities currently noted under said categories don't exactly add up to being related to one another.

For example, soul hax and mind hax aren't inherently connected, unlike mind hax and type 2 madness hax. But in verse where mind and soul are inter-twined, the evolution to gain or resist these abilities can also be connected.

There are interesting combinations of abilities and resistances throughout fiction with varying level of connections, I think it is best we use the current blog as a guideline rather than a rulebook. Just like we do with UES page, i.e give examples and general cases/principles of how RE can work in fiction to help people utilise proper logic to index their verses, rather than dictate how verses should operate which might contradict their in-verse lore and power mechanics or plot points.

An ability page should exist to help people understand and help index their verses, not boss them around into believing how a verse should work contrary to in-verse logic.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with Bambu and Armor.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Armor stated my concerns too. The primary change here seems to be removing the notion of it being limited to what it is shown to do- I think that flies in the face of what we should be aiming for. Type adding seems overall unnecessary to me (few abilities actually require types), but this part seems downright harmful.

^I agree with this.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Armorchompy Which is where the different types come into play, it makes it much clearer on what exactly they’re capable of adapting towards so we don’t have to deal with people going back and forth in which one’s evolution is by default better. Also for reactive evolution that’s only ever stated and shown to work on specific abilities like martial arts, that would need to be stated in the character profiles as their limits. Otherwise you’d have people saying Doomsday cannot adapt to poison because he’s never shown to adapt to it, despite his whole gimmick is reviving and adapting to whatever killed him that’s Corporeal.

@Mr._Bambu can you elaborate on how exactly it’s harmful? Because this doesn’t remotely explain shit on how the new draft is harmful.

 

[Armorchompy]

@Armorchompy Which is where the different types come into play, it makes it much clearer on what exactly they’re capable of adapting towards so we don’t have to deal with people going back and forth in which one’s evolution is by default better.

But we do have to deal with that. I've already brought up half a dozen examples of conclusions one might draw from these Types

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Armorchompy Which is where the different types come into play, it makes it much clearer on what exactly they’re capable of adapting towards so we don’t have to deal with people going back and forth in which one’s evolution is by default better. Also for reactive evolution that’s only ever stated and shown to work on specific abilities like martial arts, that would need to be stated in the character profiles as their limits. Otherwise you’d have people saying Doomsday cannot adapt to poison because he’s never shown to adapt to it, despite his whole gimmick is reviving and adapting to whatever killed him that’s Corporeal.

@Mr._Bambu can you elaborate on how exactly it’s harmful? Because this doesn’t remotely explain shit on how the new draft is harmful.

As I said, removing the notion of NLF from one specific ability is harmful. I had figured that would be self explanatory. By removing the idea that an ability has limits in terms of how powerful it can become, you then allow every user of that ability to be more or less infinitely "good" with this ability. We, as a wiki, are meant to offer fairly conservative estimates of what a character can do- removing a system there solely to maintain that standard hardly seems like a good idea.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Armorchompy you do realize your whole comment on "Just because you can shrug off pressure points you're able to create a new fighting style in seconds?" Is already addressed by the Offensive and Defensive types of Reactive evolution right? The whole point of this redraft is to further expand upon what the potential of reactive evolution is supposed to be in the first place, just saying "case by case" isn't going to solve anything without actually elaborating on the ability. Hence the different types and the possible uses of said types.

@Mr._Bambu You do realize my main problem with the NLF is the fact there's no good alternative solution on how to deal with the NLF right? The whole point of it getting types is to further elaborate on the extent of the reactive evolution the characters have in the first place since the page currently lacks any solutions to this.