Re Zero Discussion Thread: Season 3 is Real

[Zabazab]

Yeah Puck & Betty were only a few years old, so at that point Echidna was > Starbeast Puck, but after 400 years Puck is vastly stronger now, and Betty got way stronger too though not as strong as Echidna.

The strongest of the LTDGB trio was most probably Toska, he called Guiltylowes "big dogs" and even ate them, and Puck considered his strength to be monstrous.

 

[Zabazab]

The more I think about the speed of the mid tiers, the more I think they could possibly be rated higher.

I'm looking through some quotes about characters speed, specifically in comparison to Subaru's Guiltywhip since it has an actual value, but I don't want to make a thread for it yet until after the Swordsmen Cloud Calcs are evaluated.

In particular Sirius' whip reaction feat and especially Volcanica's tail whip are convincing me that ~Emilia-level characters could be supersonic+

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Once we get visuals I am pretty sure they will be higher, since we have a stated speed for whips, we just need to know the distance the moved and what not.

 

[VortechsTG]

The more I think about the speed of the mid tiers, the more I think they could possibly be rated higher.

I'm looking through some quotes about characters speed, specifically in comparison to Subaru's Guiltywhip since it has an actual value, but I don't want to make a thread for it yet until after the Swordsmen Cloud Calcs are evaluated.

In particular Sirius' whip reaction feat and especially Volcanica's tail whip are convincing me that ~Emilia-level characters could be supersonic+

Are not examples like Frederica being unable to even keep track of where Elsa was in the hallway grounds for characters on Elsa's level to be higher anyway? I also just checked how their speed is described in volumes 14 and 15 with ctrl f for "sound" and it only ever describes them as "surpassing sound" or "Leaving even the sound of ripping the air trailing behind".

 

[Zabazab]

"Leaving even the sound behind" is the most common description of speed that gets used by Tappei.

Even characters that are drastically above supersonic like Volcanica, Reid, and Reinhard get described this way.

Are not examples like Frederica being unable to even keep track of where Elsa was in the hallway grounds for characters on Elsa's level to be higher anyway?

Yeah she clearly outpaces Frederica to a significant degree, and iirc Fred is >= Rem.
Even when she fought off ice magic danmaku from Puck and then Emilia she was holding back, only finally letting loose against Reinhard.

 

[VortechsTG]

"Leaving even the sound behind" is the most common description of speed that gets used by Tappei.

Even characters that are drastically above supersonic like Volcanica, Reid, and Reinhard get described this way.

I know it's a common description. I was just saying it shows they're more than just around the speed of sound. It's less important anyway.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

I was rewatching rezero and I thought of something

Petelgeuce should have Type 2 and 7 immortality also. It stated he was in a half dead/alive state (type 7) and he survived with his body mutilated (type 2)
Willpower can keep someone going but he also kept fighting despite those injuries so Type 2 immortality should be added

 

[VortechsTG]

I was rewatching rezero and I thought of something

Petelgeuce should have Type 2 and 7 immortality also. It stated he was in a half dead/alive state (type 7) and he survived with his body mutilated (type 2)
Willpower can keep someone going but he also kept fighting despite those injuries so Type 2 immortality should be added

He's not undead. He just has a sort of mind corruption that's twisted him into essentially a different person. The old Petelgeuse is basically dead but he's not actually dead.

And he is able to survive those injuries because it's not his body. As a spirit he isn't affected by what happens to the bodies he possess. But it's not like he could survive damage that would normally kill a spirit. That's just standard for type 6 immortality.

 

[Zabazab]

Cool thing: Roswaal (and by extension Echidna) can apparently use Lightning magic, and it's considered a type of Wind magic that is combined with other attributes.
(From a 2018 Re:Zero Talkshow)

 

[Fezzih_007]

I don't know If this was discussed before, but what you guys think about making a profile for the characters of the games? Like the prophecy of the throne?

 

[Zabazab]

Eh, there are many actual characters in the novels that would deserve their own profiles before the characters from non-canon games.

Besides, continuously improving the accuracy of current profiles should take priority.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Eh, there are many actual characters in the novels that would deserve their own profiles before the characters from non-canon games.

Besides, continuously improving the accuracy of current profiles should take priority.

I mean, I let Pegasus take care of Canon profiles, I could myself make the profiles for the game characters.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I mean, I let Pegasus take care of Canon profiles, I could myself make the profiles for the game characters.

That could be kinda fun, although i dont know how you would be able to make matches for characters like Wolf.
Also can we pls have profiles for the ana cat trio

 

[Zabazab]

I don't really know much of the game ocs aside from Alcor being stupidly strong.

I don't see the point but if you want to then go crazy i guess.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Ok, i think i gonna make one, is gonna be super easy, barelly a inconvenience.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Like, 5 profiles pfft that should be a piece of cake.

 

[VortechsTG]

Eh, there are many actual characters in the novels that would deserve their own profiles before the characters from non-canon games.

Besides, continuously improving the accuracy of current profiles should take priority.

To be fair Tarco, Tiga, Salum, and Melty are super simple. I don't think anyone should even touch Alcor and co though lol.

But yeah, there are definitely main canon characters who need profiles more.

 

[Deidalius]

I didn't know there was a Re:Zero thread. Cool. I love Re:Zero.

 

[VortechsTG]

Actually, wait a minute. Why is Marcos listed as 8-B despite being as strong as Roswaal?

The one speaking with Priscilla is a person known as Marcos Gildark, the captain of the royal guard. His strength is second in the kingdom, after Reinhard. In a regular fight, he's about as strong as Roswaal. - DC Twitter Comments

 

[Zabazab]

Yeah Marcos should be Roswaal level from that and (I think) it might have been said more than once actually.

I also think Shaula could be listed higher, she can kill everyone in the Pleiades Watchtower easily, and killed Roswaal in Gluttony IF.
The only big antifeat for her I think is Julius + Emilia slowing down and deflecting Hell's Snipe together.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Roswall is 7-B with Magic trought, physically he is 8-B, does Marcos scales to his Magic?

 

[Zabazab]

Scaling to him physically would make no sense, Marcos is much stronger than Julius, who should be around the strength of people like Old Wilhelm/Elsa/Garfiel, all of whom should be able to slap Roswaal in cqc.

Roswaal just isn't known for his physicals in the Kingdom despite still being a superhuman in that regard.

 

[VortechsTG]

Scaling to him physically would make no sense, Marcos is much stronger than Julius, who should be around the strength of people like Old Wilhelm/Elsa/Garfiel, all of whom should be able to slap Roswaal in cqc.

Roswaal just isn't known for his physicals in the Kingdom despite still being a superhuman in that regard.

Based on a single statement in arc 4 and some qna statements Roswaal should be weaker than them but Tappei has clearly changed his mind since then. Arc 7 pretty clearly showed Roswaal to be physically a better fighter than Garfiel who at that point was way stronger than he was in arc 5. And in Once Upon a Time in Lugunica where he and Marcos fight he used minimal magic and wins (although Marcos did let him win). Although it's important to note that even though Macros was holding back he still had to use magic.

I think you can easily rationalize him saying he would lose to Garfiel in arc 4 if he transformed as him holding his cards close to his chest and/or trying to avoid upsetting Subaru as much.

 

[Zabazab]

I think you're bang-on with the Marcos stuff- Roswaal even used his magic with the intent to kill Marcos but felt he could take it, & he was indeed still fine while holding back.


For the Ros/Gar stuff, even after Arc 7 had finished Tappei held his ground that in the Emilia Camp, Garfiel is the strongest in CQC.

I think that strength in battle depends on the starting conditions.
For example, in Emilia’s camp, Garfiel is the strongest in close combat, but Emilia is the best at medium range, and Roswaal is the best at long range. - 15/4/2023

I felt that in especially the big matchup that Ros & Gar were in, it was less Roswaal being a superior physical fighter than Garf, and more so Roswaal having far greater experience and knowledge of fighting, especially with the kind of opponent they were facing.

 

[VortechsTG]

For the Ros/Gar stuff, even after Arc 7 had finished Tappei held his ground that in the Emilia Camp, Garfiel is the strongest in CQC.

Yes, but that's after his massive powerup. At the start of the fight is a different matter entirely.

I felt that in especially the big matchup that Ros & Gar were in, it was less Roswaal being a superior physical fighter than Garf, and more so Roswaal having far greater experience and knowledge of fighting, especially with the kind of opponent they were facing.

At that point Roswaal being more skilled was what made him stronger but at the end of the day he was able to keep up with Olbart. If Ros was really weaker than Garf was back in arcs 4 or 5 he would have simply been speedblitzed by a gargantuan amount. Olbart was able to keep up with kid Cecilus. And at the start of the fight when Garf was weaker Olbart was speedblitzing him. Chisha believed Olbart to actually be THE strongest military force of the divine generals. Ofc that's partly due to his skill and cunning but if he were so weak that someone below Elsa's level could keep up with him that would make no sense. And then ofc there's the whole scaling chain from ex 5.

 

[Zabazab]

Yeah I can agree on post-arc-7 Garfiel >(slightly?) Roswaal without magic > Pre-arc-7 Garfiel

 

[Zabazab]

Man, I really think Arc 6 should have been 6 volumes, so much was cut out to fit it into the novels, especially volume 25.

Tons of cool lines or moments just left on the cutting room floor, like chunks of Julius vs Reid and the whole explanation of Rai's new form, it's a shame.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Man, I really think Arc 6 should have been 6 volumes, so much was cut out to fit it into the novels, especially volume 25.

Tons of cool lines or moments just left on the cutting room floor, like chunks of Julius vs Reid and the whole explanation of Rai's new form, it's a shame.

those were cut???

 

[Zabazab]

those were cut???

Rui's entire named chapter is butchered too, she's a way better character in the WN.

It's not even a case like Arc 4 where things were changed/retconned/replaced with other things (though plenty of cuts sucked there too).

They were just cut from dialogue/narration, despite a lot of it (namely the crazy form/boost Rai gets) still happening, just with none of the cool explanation.

Rai getting hyped up as an unmatched fighter by the story and then getting trounced by Oni God Ram is one of my favourite moments of Arc 6 too

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Rui's entire named chapter is butchered too, she's a way better character in the WN.

It's not even a case like Arc 4 where things were changed/retconned/replaced with other things (though plenty of cuts sucked there too).

They were just cut from dialogue/narration, despite a lot of it (namely the crazy form/boost Rai gets) still happening, just with none of the cool explanation.

Rai getting hyped up as an unmatched fighter by the story and then getting trounced by Oni God Ram is one of my favourite moments of Arc 6 too

oof, thats a major dissapointment then. Dont see why that had to be cut...
Ley vs Ram was a based battled fr

 

[Zabazab]

oof, thats a major dissapointment then. Dont see why that had to be cut...
Ley vs Ram was a based battled fr

The impact is lost comparitavely. Even though technically the fight happens exactly the same, so much was cut from the text for space.

Usually it was minor things that were cut, like Reinhard's Blessing of Arrow Avoidance in V1, but they tried to squeeze 20 pretty long chapters into one book for V25 so

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Oni Sister done.

Ram isn't the reincarnation of the Oni God for nothing, was surprised at how skilled she was as an 8 year old.

Dodging invisble explosions after just coming across it, and then while constrained in a passageway, so not having a whole lot of space to move, dodges countless numbers of those same explosions, making sure to not get any fatal hits with supernatural body movements.

Not quite sure what i will read next.

 

[Zabazab]

Have you read Loving The Days Gone By From Zero? If not I'd highly recommend that sidestory.

Sword Identity is a good one too (even with the caveat that Arakiya is a main character)

 

[VortechsTG]

I'd recommend Apocalypse Girls if that was translated lol. The parts that are are very good.

Priscilla camp ss's are a must if you haven't read them yet.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Have you read Loving The Days Gone By From Zero? If not I'd highly recommend that sidestory.

Sword Identity is a good one too (even with the caveat that Arakiya is a main character)

Will try both, also going to read the Priscilla camp side stories.

 

[VortechsTG]

So Once Upon a Time in Lugunica is translated now and I'm reading it. It is made VERY clear that Marcos is an absolute beast.

Roswaal uses a durability negating technique to directly attack his internal organs. He tanks it. He hits Roswaal back with a single punch and it knocks him out.

There was about five meters between them, but Roswaal, cloaked in wind, closed the gap in a single breath. His target was his opponent’s torso, which was remarkable in terms of speed. His muscles were tough as armor, but if the impact passed through the gaps, his internal organs would be easy pickings.

A single strike that dealt a crushing blow to the internal organs behind the muscle—it was a technique called fa jin that he’d learned two generations ago. In order to deliver the blow, Roswaal placed his palm on his opponent’s stomach, and—

“Hah!” The strike made contact at the same time he stepped, and the blowback passed behind him. The wind born from it blew away the dirt in the alley, and a sensation ricocheted back through his entire body.

The power with which it tore through his internal organs easily sapped the strength from the two legs supporting his massive frame. Naturally, without any support for his body, it gave out…and yet, he remained standing.

“What?” Roswaal uttered in surprise.

“Ah, crap… That hurt, you lanky brat.” With the assumption that he’d fall having failed, the man clicked his tongue and grit his back teeth in frustration. Seeing this, Roswaal gulped. It wasn’t that he had dissipated the impact with some special technique. He simply endured it with an insane level of tenacity.

His eyes bulged at this revelation, when the man jerked his body widely, unleashing his fists. The single blow, clothed in a mighty wind, struck the petrified Roswaal in the gut with a devastating impact.

“…Gah.” Blown back, Roswaal slammed into a wall. His head spun. Before he even realized what had happened, his senses started to fade…

“…Crap, I’m not done. How pathetic…”

With those final words of self-resentment, he completely lost consciousness.

Later, it's said he was holding back.

It was a step that seemed to shake the earth, imprinting a deep footprint into the ground. Leaving behind evidence of his strong leap, Marcos closed in on Roswaal instantaneously, and struck him with a violent kick.

The overwhelming destructive force made him realize that he had been holding back with the punch in the alley. If he had taken the sole of that shoe head on, he might not have regained consciousness for another year.

Marcos' speed and power is said to make him a nightmare for Roswaal and his blows apparently mean instant death.

One of them had the burly physique of a giant, whose entire body could be considered the embodiment of muscle itself. With each step the ground shook, and he approached his adversary as swift as an arrow, making him an absolute nightmare for his opponent. The force behind every punch and kick invited certain death wherever they landed. Merely committing to close combat with him would shorten one’s lifespan by a few seconds.

If one was to suffer from his attacks—thread with powerful winds—no degree of training would mean anything at all, no matter how big or small.

Roswaal has to get by with pure skill and magic.

“…Tch. You’re pretty skilled.” The giant clicked his tongue as his opponent landed on the toes of the foot he had extended after throwing a violent front kick.

When the giant lightly swung his arm, shards of frost fluttered down gently. They were the remains of sheets of ice that had taken the punches in place of the boy.

It was proof of his struggle that amidst the violent conflict, the young boy weaved magic into the hand-to-hand combat to sway the battle in his favor. Seeing this up close, the giant clicked his tongue in frustration, upon which the youth used his kicking foot as a springboard to leap backwards.

Roswaal hasn't seen anyone as strong as Marcos since the Demi-human war.

In what could be regarded as a bad habit of his, Roswaal reveled in this twilight duel to the fullest. Marcos defended against Roswaal’s barrage of attacks head-on, striking with erratic violence. His abilities were excellent—better than anyone he’d come across in the last few decades. You’d have to trace back to the Demi-Human War to find someone as powerful as he was.

Roswaal infuses fa jin with fire magic, intending to kill Marcos and he tanks it.

With Roswaal engrossed in his thoughts, Marcos drew an arc with his leg in the air and drove it toward his opponent. Ducking low, Roswaal evaded the kick and leapt toward his chest. And exactly as he had done a few hours prior in the alleyway, he struck Marcos’s abdomen.

“But this time, let’s kick it up a notch… This time, I’m intending to kill!”

“—Ugh!”

Unlike last time, when his only aim was to incapacitate his opponent, this strike had enough power behind it to damage the internal organs of a large witchbeast. Unlike your typical fa jin, it was a new technique that incorporated Roswaal’s creativity—a strike combined with fire, capable of blazing through its victim’s viscera.

It was a murderous technique derived from the worst conceivable imagination that could incinerate and immobilize the innards that had been blown apart by the blast. But it was only from a certain level of confidence in his opponent that he dared to attempt it.

“…You son of a bitch!”

Marcos, whose bowels should have been baked, duly responded to Roswaal’s credence. At the moment of impact, he tightened his abdominal muscles and twisted ever so slightly, allowing him to escape fatal injury with that movement alone. However, even he couldn’t come out unscathed. A fact which sparked a fire in his smoldering fighting instincts.

Simply being grazed by Marcos' attack shatters Roswaal’s shoulder.

Taking his eye off his opponent at point blank range was the epitome of recklessness. But Roswaal had done so intentionally. In the opening he had deliberately exposed, he received Marcos’s attack. And in that instant, his right shoulder shattered. The impact came from nothing more than a thumb graze of his opponent’s fist. But with that single hit, Roswaal’s right arm was rendered out-of-service.

Roswaal tries to use fa jin with his whole body but Marcos copies the technique and is primed to put Roswaal out of commission.

Shirking off the pain from his broken shoulder, Roswaal was confident in his victory. He’d lightly bumped into Marcos’s chest with his back. Although it left him in a backwards stance, the surface area that made contact with his body was far greater than that of his palm.

The force of the fa jin released from this position was roughly ten times stronger than that released from his palm—a force that even Marcos couldn’t withstand.

Although interwoven with magic, it was ultimately through martial arts that he overcame his opponent. Having accomplished this difficult task, he could at last report back to his teacher with pride. However, in the moment he released the fa jin, Roswaal realized something.

“───”

With his back turned, he sensed Marcos tighten his chest muscles. It was not a defensive stance to withstand Roswaal’s powerful strike—it was the initial stance done in preparation for releasing fa jin.

Occasionally, the world would give birth to a titan—a child of battle, endowed with a violent ferocity capable of overwhelming others, allowing them to readily absorb an opponent’s long-cultivated martial arts and handle them at will, as if that skill were their own.

Marcos was the perfect depiction of such a titan.

Sensing his preparation to release the fa jin, Roswaal shuddered. His contact with Marcos’ chest, which had given him such conviction in his victory, in that moment had become an omen of his opponent’s counterattack.

The match now hinged solely on who could deliver a faster, more devastating blow. Roswaal had a slight advantage in how long he had used the ability. While not particularly reliable in the face of a titan who was a master of martial arts, he had nothing else to rely upon. He put faith into these techniques, which he had cultivated and tempered every day, to surpass the existence of this titan… It was at that instant.

“───”

“What?”

The growing awareness of the martial arts against his back dissipated. The tension eased up in an instant, leaving Roswaal at a loss for words as to what had happened. But it was too late to stop the arrow he had drawn. His full-body fa jin had been released.

The air exploded with a bang, and the ground beneath Roswaal’s feet cracked. The impact hit Marcos directly, his huge frame snapped, and he tumbled to the ground.

Roswaal is mad that Marcos held back and was only knocked out for a couple seconds.

The victor had been decided when Marcos tumbled to the ground, having been struck with such a powerful fa jin. That much was clear from anyone’s perspective. However, it was the victor himself who stubbornly refused to accept it.

Gently rubbing his own stomach, Marcos heaved a sigh, “No matter how you look at it, you won. Unlike our last brawl in the alley, I’m the one knocked out this time. I have nothing to say. So what’s the problem?”

“What’s the problem, you say? Everything! I’m not satisfied by any of it! You were only out for two or three seconds. How about a rematch…ow, ow, ow!”

And all of this is decades ago when he would have been weaker and without his rock armor trump card that he probably learned from Roswaal.

I think it’s absolutely fair to take the statements comparing his current power to Roswaal at face value. It has been such a long time since this story took place and he was already a beast back then. His growth speed is showcased here very well too. So Marcos' page pretty clearly needs an overhaul as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Zabazab]

Just read the full translation the other day and had similar thoughts about him, shattering several of Roswaal's layered magic earth & ice barriers very casually suggests Roswaal's only real way to win is by flying far enough away.

You could probably make a CRT around Marcos with this (I think).

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Been looking for someone to have skill copying, and there it is.

I finished Loving Days, and Volcanica should get some time stop resistance from that i think seeing as an inferior dragon can resist it.

Echidna pulling stardust from space is pretty crazy too.

 

[VortechsTG]

Been looking for someone to have skill copying, and there it is.

I finished Loving Days, and Volcanica should get some time stop resistance from that i think seeing as an inferior dragon can resist it.

Echidna pulling stardust from space is pretty crazy too.

Ram skill copied Ley's wind blades in arc 6 too.

 

[Zabazab]

Ram doing what Rai needs their Authority for, she is so Her