Re Zero Discussion Thread: Season 3 is Real

[Zabazab]

It was back when he ranked the 5 characters with the strongest magical attack power, out of those who had appeared so far, it's still on his twitter.

He said in the Q&A that it went Roswaal > Awakened Emilia > Echidna > All-Out Beatrice > Fortuna.

I don't think he's ever said Roswaal is on Starbeast Puck's level though, that'd make no sense, just that he has more finesse than Puck does.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Beatrice shouldn't be above Fortuna, since Emilia says her magic is so strong she doubts even with Puck she could do what Fortuna does, so that scaling is clearly inaccurate.

Idk what All Out Beatrice even is, guessing like arc 4 with centuries of magic power, she just spammed minya, which is hax, and then al shamac, more hax, so what exactly counts as magical attack here?

Anyway don't think it's usuable especially as I said, Roswaal is stated and shown to be small Puck level, while afraid of big Puck.

 

[Zabazab]

Oh I had thought that comment had been referring to Emilia's own magic while borrowing the power from Puck due to that being the wording, like vs Petelgeuse(?)

But if what you said is the case then yeah that checks out, Tappei is just wrong sometimes, like the "only 7 witch factors" thing lol

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Tappei needs to get better at keeping his record straight fr

 

[Zabazab]

Should Sekhmet not have FTL speed and higher LS since she slapped Volcanica across the Great Waterfall? I think her ap scaling to the top tier's island level is far more debatable, but those two stats should at least be comparable I think.

"Is it about the Witch of Sloth Sekhmet, who drove the Dragon away, beyond the Great Waterfall, just to rest?"

“However, I was not the Witch that Volcanica had originally expected to leave behind. If anyone should have remained, it should have been Sekhmet. The problem was that Volcanica himself disputed with Sekhmet. And, it seems, after she beat him to a pulp, he grew rather wary of her.”

"Sekhmet fell down the Great Waterfall as she rained destruction upon the Dragon;"

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Where is all that from?

If it's the web novel, it might not usable, as for as the light novel, the first one you bought up there might be, since a similar thing was said.

The issue is it's said something like she drove away dragons, not the Dragon, but as we all know Yen Press can be inaccurate in these weird things, so probably have to look at the raws.

 

[Zabazab]

1st quote should be in both the WN and LN, 2nd and 3rd quote are from the WN only i think- the extended first conversation with Echidna and Echidna's description of the Witches true deaths respectively.

Yeah it's almost certainly Yen press messing up again, it's pretty well established that Sekhmet fought Volcanica, "The Dragon", and fell down the Great Waterfall during the fight, not "the dragons" which as a species were brought to near extinction by Reid.

Besides, the idea that WN to LN would change Sekhmet vs Volcanica to just Sekhmet vs some dragons is extraordinarily unlikely imo.

The LN raws should clear it up, they should align with the sentence being "drove the Dragon past the Great Waterfall" (Volcanica ofc), rather than plural dragons.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Thought as much.

But yea i agree it's likely Yawn Press messing up, have no access to the raws though.

 

[Zabazab]

I do have the Japanese LN for volume 10 (digital), where the sentence is:

ことかい？ 安らぎをもたらすそのためだけに、大瀑布の彼方へ龍を追いやった『怠惰の魔女』セクメト

The 龍 (Dragon) is the term used only for beings like Volcanica, and not lesser dragons.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cool, something to add at some point.

Almost done with Ex 5.

The mysteries with Al get deeper. Apparently knows Reinhard is the strongest despite being trapped on an island for 10 years, so couldn't have met Reinhard as he would have been like a baby before; how would you know a 3 year old would be the world strongest?

Also mentions silver hair and failing to protect someone important to him....

As for feats, even Al who is 2nd rate can attack with instinct, so seems like a low level skill feat in Re Zero, considering Priscilla also has it i was wondering if people like Crusch should as well, seeing as they are comparable, at this point i think so.

It's again shown that invisibility means nothing to anyone skilled, The Hornet who is 9 Divine General level, easily detected Arakiya, who was invisible and made no sound.

Goes to show how op the Unseen Hands are, when you have multiple feats of characters dealing with invisble stuff, but if not for Subaru, Geuse is basically an assassin who can take out the majority of people on first encounter.

 

[Zabazab]

Yeah the Vollachian side content is really really good, lots of characterisation for Priscilla, Vincent, and the Generals (though Arakiya is still very meh).

Some of the feats are wild too, like Cecilus slicing thick clouds apart while sitting on the ground, and his attacks just bouncing off of Yorna's skin with no effect.

The side content made me like Cecilus way more actually, I was kinda iffy about him in Wrath IF and Gladiator Island.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

>like Cecilus slicing thick clouds apart while sitting on the ground, and his attacks just bouncing off of Yorna's skin with no effect.

Sounds impressive, have to dive more into the side content, just finished Ex 5. Think i am going to read the Ram and Ram prequel next.

As for Cecilus i am pretty iffy with him atm, just a really skilled swordsman who sees himself as the lead in a play. Nothing complex, or that interesting to him yet.

Priscilla however i like a lot more, the nuances to her personality were evident from arc 5, where she acts like a bitch, but underneath it is kind, but it's more evident here, and you understand why she acts like she does.

 

[Zabazab]

Ooo Oni Sisters prequel is a contender for my favourite side story, really elevates Rem & Ram's relationship, and adds depth to pretty much every character that's in it, even featuring some you wouldn't expect.

It also makes child Rem seem weirdly strong, seems an Oni body can even make a child inhumanly strong.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Is a yorrichi vs theresia or yoriichi vs wilhelm matchup possible?

 

[SubaruN2000]

Feel like yorrichi would just blitz them. Maybe with speed equalized?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Feel like yorrichi would just blitz them. Maybe with speed equalized?

obviously with speed equalized

 

[SubaruN2000]

Even then, I'm not sure. Yoriichi still outscales and Wilhelm or Theresia don't really have any notable hax to help them overcome an AP difference like that. There definetly more skilled as swordsmen but thats about it.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Even then, I'm not sure. Yoriichi still outscales and Wilhelm or Theresia don't really have any notable hax to help them overcome an AP difference like that. There definetly more skilled as swordsmen but thats about it.

Accelerrated development on Wilhelm, he was equal speed to kurgan but had an AD moment where he deflected 3 of his hands and almost kills him with that. considering he gets stronger against stronger opponents and that Yoriichi has a higher AP but lower skill. I think i can argue for his victory

 

[Zabazab]

I guess you could argue it? But they still only have skill to their name, Yoriichi outscales in all other categories.

Maybe Theresia would have a better shot via causing ceaseless bleeding.

 

[SubaruN2000]

Yea Theresias DP Shinigami might be able to pull something off. The problem with accelerated development is that Yorrichi has it too and the difference between Wilhelm and Kurgan wasn't that big anyway, not as big as Yorrichis AP difference over Wilhelm would be.

 

[VortechsTG]

Yea Theresias DP Shinigami might be able to pull something off. The problem with accelerated development is that Yorrichi has it too and the difference between Wilhelm and Kurgan wasn't that big anyway, not as big as Yorrichis AP difference over Wilhelm would be.

The AP difference between them was not crazy but neither was the skill difference. What kind of skill feats does Yorrichi have or scale to besides accelerated development?

It might be best to just make the thread.

 

[SubaruN2000]

Yeah we could probably make a thread on it. Yorrichi should be outclassed when it comes to skill but he's got Selfless state.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ex Novel's CRT

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

This calc is wild, Wilhelm pulling off a greater feat than everyone else in story.

Not sure what to even do with this if it's accepted.

 

[Zabazab]

Holy mother, that is crazy.

Actually it might prove the whole Peak Wilhelm = Cecilus statement from Tappei, as in Sword Identity a similar type of feat occurs:

Considering that, the area around them looked desolated as far as the eye could see much like it had been carpet bombed by magic stone artillery, it was hard to believe they had rampaged in the hypocenter.


Cecilus: [I can even dodge the rain if I really try, y’know.]


Arakiya: [...No matter how you look at it, that’s a lie.]


Cecilus: [So what! It’s up to yourself whether it’s a lie or not, I say. You can’t do what you think you can’t do. As long as you think you can’t, you’ll never be able to slice through clouds.]


Carping at the weak objection, Cecilus unsheathed the katana on his waist as he sat.


In a flash of lightning that left even the sound behind, the force from the drawn blade rose into the sky, and the thick clouds above the pair of them were cleaved in twain right down the middle.


Arakiya: [──Slicing clouds.]


Cecilus: [Well, it's a bit of a startling feat, isn't it? But if I had said that I couldn't reach the clouds or whatever, I wouldn't have been able to do it ever!]

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

So there is some consistency there, but the problem comes after. Peak Wilhelm is stronger than the Ex cast like Grimm, Carol etc, but he isn't 1000's of times stronger.

I remember Grimm blocking attacks from Valgren who did this cloud feat, albeit Grimm bones broke, and the Earth Worm, which Wilhelm fought, that same species also shows up in arc 6, gets taken out by Shaula's stingers, which Emilia and Julius working together can stop, so........

 

[VortechsTG]

So there is some consistency there, but the problem comes after. Peak Wilhelm is stronger than the Ex cast like Grimm, Carol etc, but he isn't 1000's of times stronger.

I remember Grimm blocking attacks from Valgren who did this cloud feat, albeit Grimm bones broke, and the Earth Worm, which same species shows up in arc 6, gets taken out by Shaula's stingers, which Emilia and Julius working together can stop, so........

I think mabeasts just vary a lot more in power than the series initially makes it seem. All of the ones in arc 6 are said to be larger than usual iirc. For the worms in arc 6 one of them was especially large. That being said, the worm being as strong as it was in EX 3 is strange no matter what way you look at it.

 

[Zabazab]

So there is some consistency there, but the problem comes after. Peak Wilhelm is stronger than the Ex cast like Grimm, Carol etc, but he isn't 1000's of times stronger.

I remember Grimm blocking attacks from Valgren who did this cloud feat, albeit Grimm bones broke, and the Earth Worm, which Wilhelm fought, that same species also shows up in arc 6, gets taken out by Shaula's stingers, which Emilia and Julius working together can stop, so........

I'm not sure I follow the Sand Earthworm stuff? Even Subaru's whip can hurt them, and Ram can slice them up very easily, as they are noted to be soft-bodied.

Ram: “Sand Earthworms stand out due to their stench and ugliness, but in contrast to their aggressive nature, their bodies are not that strong. Even if their bodies are large, my magic can kill them easily… If anything, your whip may actually be useful, Barusu.”

Subaru: “Seriously? My whip would damage them?”

Anastasia: “It’s said they tend to be cowardly, ‘n it seems if they feel pain, they’d back away. It’d depend on the type of pain they’d feel, but at least the chance ain’t zero, wouldn’t’cha hink?”

Shaula is another weird case in Re:Zero because she gets hyped up as being able to make Reid use two hands 1/10 times they fight. She also kills Roswaal in Gluttony IF though not on-screen. But then she is implied to have been killed by Rai during the Tower of the Dead, though again off-screen and to be fair to him we know Rai's potential with Solar Eclipse is extremely ridiculous.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

My bad, earth worm is not the same as sand worm. Earth worm was hard, with only it's belly being soft from what i remember.

But anyway lets say the calc is accepted, could we really have Ex Novel characters being 7-B, while the main cast is thousands of times weaker?

 

[Zabazab]

I think it is also significant that the main cast is only half-way through their story, while the Wilhelm cloud feat is at the very end of his.

As the story continues, strange things like Wilhelm having a better ap feat than Starbeast Puck will likely correct themselves, we'll see more of the modern high tiers capabilities and maybe even see main characters become high tiers.

Having direct proof that Wilhelm and Cecilus are comparable to go along with 2 WoG statements would also be really nice.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

FantaRin is going to add the Cecilius feat to the Wilhelm calc too.

The part that would look very odd to me is indeed Wilhelm being stronger than Great Spirits like Puck.

Also Roswaal J being 1000's of times stronger than L...

This is gonna require a whole thread for itself to discuss if it's accepted.

 

[VortechsTG]

My bad, earth worm is not the same as sand worm. Earth worm was hard, with only it's belly being soft from what i remember.

But anyway lets say the calc is accepted, could we really have Ex Novel characters being 7-B, while the main cast is thousands of times weaker?

I think that's fair to an extent. People like Roswaal and Echidna are obviously stronger than them but there is a pretty gargantuan gap between prime Wilhelm and current Wilhelm.

It's not like Current and Prime Wilhelm being equal for the longest time wasn't just as strange.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Could have sworn it was said somewhere Roswaal L is the strongest Roswaal or something, if we find that, then it would be pretty easy to argue, that with magic, Roswaal L would scale, and Echidna too.

Fanta finished the Cecilus calc, also 7-B

If this goes through it would be hilarious, here we were arguing about 8-B Cecilius, just for it to get removed anyway.

 

[Zabazab]

We know that people at least close to Wil/Ceci/Theresia level likely cannot fight a Great Spirit, as Halibel was overwhelmed and killed (clone, but still has identical stats) by Full Power Light Ball Zarestia (Reize) despite her being cursed by Halibel for months, and Roswaal L. is comparable to the non-Puck Great Spirits i.e Melakeura

J being physically far stronger kinda makes a bit of sense since it was what she was born for, while L is a magical powerhouse, the strongest magician body Roswaal has had, and he can still compete very well in cqc.

I'm wanting to save most of my thoughts though for if there's a specific thread for this potential upheaval.

 

[VortechsTG]

Could have sworn it was said somewhere Roswaal L is the strongest Roswaal or something, if we find that, then it would be pretty easy to argue, that with magic, Roswaal L would scale, and Echidna too.

I thought there was a quote like that too but I was just looking for a while and could only find that L Mathers is way stronger than A Mathers. Maybe it's out there

 

[Zabazab]

Think I found it

And the current Roswaal—— The man standing in front of Beatrice. Roswaal L. Mathers exhibited the most supreme talent out of all the Roswaals yet. He was such a genius that, secretly, even Beatrice had to shiver. - Arc 4 Interlude I To Each Their Concession

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Think I found it

Pretty sure that only focuses on his magic talent

The Ex Novel characters are also consistently shown to either be on the verge of breakthrough into the superhuman or already into them so it makes sense if you think about it.
Although this sudden plot twist was unexpexted.

 

[Zabazab]

I also think it's frankly just common sense that a Roswaal L. Sixfold "Al Shario" should be stronger than Roswaal J.'s strikes by a ludicrous degree.

Echidna casting just one Al Shario completely wiped out a weyr of 100 Silver Dragons, and the leader and strongest of the Weyr was able to fight a younger Puck, Betty, and Reid's little brother Toska, all at once.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I didnt realize Echidna was so busted.

 

[VortechsTG]

I didnt realize Echidna was so busted.

She's not. Puck and Beatrice still had a lot of room to grow back then. Still impressive though.