Re Zero Discussion Thread: Season 3 is Real

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Right, it's something to be added when the LN gets there, but yea Oni God for a reason, disgustingly skilled.

Honestly think you can argue Ram to be at least Old Wil level in skill, but not going to make that argument till the LN gets there, like the aforementioned copying of Rai's wind blade, and predicting Rai's attacks, despite him already resisting that sort of stuff.

 

[Zabazab]

It seems that either Ram is way more skilled than 99% of characters and just cannot utilise it due to her disability, or removing Shackles actually somehow increases her skill by accessing some theoretical Oni God fighting sense.

She was fighting relatively closely with, though still in disadvantage against Rai while using 2 Shackles- and then upon releasing a 3rd Shackle she was stomping Rai, who claimed she could kill any and every Witch Cultist & Sin Archbishop with a twist of her finger.

Fused-Eclipse Rai was then stomping 3 Shackle Ram, who upon using Synesthesia (just half of the power of Child Ram) effortlessly wiped the floor with Rai in spite of him becoming a "Warlock" possessing a level of skill "unseen in history and never to be seen again for millenia."

 

[VortechsTG]

It seems that either Ram is way more skilled than 99% of characters and just cannot utilise it due to her disability, or removing Shackles actually somehow increases her skill by accessing some theoretical Oni God fighting sense.

She was fighting relatively closely with, though still in disadvantage against Rai while using 2 Shackles- and then upon releasing a 3rd Shackle she was stomping Rai, who claimed she could kill any and every Witch Cultist & Sin Archbishop with a twist of her finger.

Fused-Eclipse Rai was then stomping 3 Shackle Ram, who upon using Synesthesia (just half of the power of Child Ram) effortlessly wiped the floor with Rai in spite of him becoming a "Warlock" possessing a level of skill "unseen in history and never to be seen again for millenia."

Arc 4 seems to suggest she is just that skilled normally. We saw what she was capable of even when completely depowered. I totally agree that Ram is at least as skilled as Old Wil btw.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

A "Warlock" possessing a level of skill "unseen in history and never to be seen again for millenia."

That sounds very wild, within the context that now we have a scale chain going, though we know it's not 100% legit, since Reinhard and Reid exist

I guess it's how much you can stretch that statement.

This level of skill has never been seen before, and won't be seen again for a 1000 years, yet Sword Saints like Theresia are impossible to reach, even with a lifetime or eternity of training, doesn't compute, so yea basically you can't stretch it too far

 

[Zabazab]

People like Reid, Reinhard, and I guess Oni God Ram, seem to have transcending skill beyond what anybody else could reach, here's the full quote though:

Thus, on this day, what was born in the Tower situated at the eastern edge of the world, was a Warlock agglutinated with every technique and odd talent, regardless of heredity and posteriori.

The Warlock possessed arms which destroyed all, possessed a flesh body which did not take damage from any type of attacks, possessed magical arts which rejected and countered any possible technique, and was endowed with even the wisdom, genius and intellect to grasp everything that existed.

No matter how extensive a survey should be taken of history, never had there been a being who excelled in every single kind of ability to this extent, and neither would any other take birth hereafter, for thousands of years to come.

This, was a selection of the world’s possibilities, brought forth by the abominable calamity referred to as a Witch Factor.

Born from the grand hotpot which condensed solely excelling articles, the supreme “gourmet delicacy” itself――

Ram: “――You shall be given three chances.”

With that rare existence before her, the young girl with pink-colored hair uttered with three fingers raised.

 

[VortechsTG]

People like Reid, Reinhard, and I guess Oni God Ram, seem to have transcending skill beyond what anybody else could reach, here's the full quote though:

It's important to note that Ram was faster and stronger than Ley here. She doesn't necessarily scale to his skill.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea that to me seems to be touching on Reinhard levels.

I mean that pretty loosely, Rai basically excels in every kind of excelling, Reinhard is the same, as was said in arc 5, hence the initial comparisons. Rai knows all kinds of magics, martial arts etc, and is very good at all them.

When it comes to purely swordsmanship i don't believe he is on Thereseia's level, but he is versatile, has a bunch of other stuff besides swordsmanship.

So skill here is pretty complicated, do i think Rai could beat Theresia in a sword fight? No, but say their stats were equal and they fought, does Rai's versatility give him the edge, or is the one thing Theresia is good at, so much of an advantage it gives her the win? That's the question, imo it's a jack of all trades vs the master of one.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

A being who excelled in every single kind of ability to this extent, and neither would any other take birth hereafter, for thousands of years to come.

Also thinking about it, this is entirely factual, Rai excels in everything, while even Reinhard can't use magic, so he doesn't excel in everything, but does that mean Rai is more skilled than Reinhard? I would say no.

So all in all, goes back to what i said above, he is a jack of all trades, and a master too yes, but there are levels to this.

 

[Zabazab]

He's essentially good at everything, and can defeat stronger people by fighting in their weaker range. If he fought Theresia with equal stats, he'd probably avoid fighting her in a sword duel, and instead use his tricks and magic to keep her away, he has effectively thousands of years of battle experience too due to his Authority.

Ultimately no matter how excellent he is in every regard, an individual who transcends one particular skill like Theresia with the sword or Roswaal with magic will be superior in their skill (this restriction though can be somewhat overcome through Solar Eclipse).

Rai normally would be killed instantly by Cecilus, but he can handle the other Divine Generals- according to WoG.

Q: How strong is Rai?

A: He is one of the strongest Sin Archbishops, about even with Sirius.

I think that strength in battle depends on the starting conditions.
For example, in Emilia’s camp, Garfiel is the strongest in close combat, but Emilia is the best at medium range, and Roswaal is the best at long range.

Rai, on the other hand, is an all-rounder who can use a variety of warrior techniques with the “Authority of Gluttony”, but he does not have outstanding abilities.
Still, I think it is quite strong that he has the ability to handle any situation.

Since there is a setting that “the Sin Archbishops have never been defeated before because their abilities cannot be detected at first sight, however their own combat power is not so high,” Rai is the strongest among the sin archbishops in terms of combat power.

He is ranked high in most countries, and he is a leveler who may or may not be able to beat the Nine Divine Generals. However, Cecilus will kill him easily (laughs). - Tappei at a 2023 Re:Zero Talkshow

For the Fused-Eclipse Rai we see fight Ram, there is really no way to know his power. Taken literally he would be as strong as Regulus, but realistically he's probably around Roswaal level- with far higher skill ofc.

 

[VortechsTG]

He's essentially good at everything, and can defeat stronger people by fighting in their weaker range. If he fought Theresia with equal stats, he'd probably avoid fighting her in a sword duel, and instead use his tricks and magic to keep her away, he has effectively thousands of years of battle experience too due to his Authority.

Ultimately no matter how excellent he is in every regard, an individual who transcends one particular skill like Theresia with the sword or Roswaal with magic will be superior in their skill (this restriction though can be somewhat overcome through Solar Eclipse).

Rai normally would be killed instantly by Cecilus, but he can handle the other Divine Generals- according to WoG.


For the Fused-Eclipse Rai we see fight Ram, there is really no way to know his power. Taken literally he would be as strong as Regulus, but realistically he's probably around Roswaal level- with far higher skill ofc.

Well, it says he may or may not beat divine generals so he'd still probably lose to the really strong ones i.e. Arakiya and Olbart.

I disagree that he is around Roswaal's level but that's completely conjecture since we have no way to base his power off of anything.

 

[Zabazab]

The pain of not having any information about a character's abilities aside from hype statements.

The worst example is probably how literally we should take Satella's flawless immortality, since even the ""omniscient"" Flügel couldn't think up a way to kill her despite the existence of methods to destroy the soul and even erase existences in his time.

Taking it safe and being conservative on hype is probably the more appropriate decision, but speculating about what could be is still fun.

 

[KntolRicat]

is there someone here, who have calculated rem moved for some nanosecond time frame ?

 

[Zabazab]

is there someone here, who have calculated rem moved for some nanosecond time frame ?

Ram travelling 10 metres "in a nanosecond" to snatch Roswaal's Tome of Wisdom is only present in one translation of the Webnovel. Other translations have translated it as "in an instant".

Not only that, Ram was at most releasing 2 Shackles in that moment, which in that state lets her "take Garfiel with half her strength" and makes her roughly equivelant to someone like Rai Batenkaitos, and thus even if the raws do use the japanese words for "nanosecond" it would most likely be flowery language.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ram travelling 10 metres "in a nanosecond" to snatch Roswaal's Tome of Wisdom is only present in one translation of the Webnovel. Other translations have translated it as "in an instant".

Not only that, Ram was at most releasing 2 Shackles in that moment, which in that state lets her "take Garfiel with half her strength" and makes her roughly equivelant to someone like Rai Batenkaitos, and thus even if the raws do use the japanese words for "nanosecond" it would most likely be flowery language.

Someone tried to upgrade Ram to Ftl+, based on that a while back, and I had to through a whole argument, explaining exactly this.

 

[Zabazab]

Like there is in fact a version of Ram that is FTL (horned Oni God), but it's certainly not the one we see fight Roswaal- and even then whether it's a hypothetical Ram or if she can even achieve it in the story via Synesthesia/Cor Leonis is also unknown.

 

[Zabazab]

Also speaking of Ram, her pain tolerance with her disability is genuinely insane.

Apparantly if Petelgeuse possessed her, he would be totally incapable of moving her body at all from the agony. Which considering that he self-mutilates for fun, laughs off being impaled, and even moves a torn-up corpse as a host body, is actually crazy.

 

[VortechsTG]

Also speaking of Ram, her pain tolerance with her disability is genuinely insane.

Apparantly if Petelgeuse possessed her, he would be totally incapable of moving her body at all from the agony. Which considering that he self-mutilates for fun, laughs off being impaled, and even moves a torn-up corpse as a host body, is actually crazy.

Idk where you got that but I don't think it's true. Arc 6 showed that something like getting stabbed in the stomach is way more painful.

 

[Zabazab]

Tappei said so on his twitter account.

ペテルギウスの憑依ですが、仮にラムに乗り移れて乗り移った場合、たぶん倒れて動けなくなるって考えると姉様が尊い…。

Arc 6 showed that something like getting stabbed in the stomach is way more painful.

Wouldn't being stabbed just pile on top of the chronic pain she constantly tolerates?

 

[VortechsTG]

Tappei said so on his twitter account.



Wouldn't being stabbed just pile on top of the chronic pain she constantly tolerates?

Yeah but like... it's Subaru feeling the pain and it's more than she usually feels. He went from being perfectly fine to being unable to even stand up from the pain when she was stabbed and poisoned.

 

[Zabazab]

He wasn't fine at all even before she gets stabbed, he just has a superior physical body to Ram who is described as having an "inferior physical form", at least when compared without Flow Method.

His entire body felt heavy, his limbs were creaking, his ears were hurting due to the noise, his torn thighs were aching, his struck and damaged abdomen was screaming in agony, his rate of breathing was rising because of the depletion of all his strength, his vision flickered in red and white.
――He should simply bluff and show that this much was of no concern.

And Ram using 3 Shackles normally would just permanently disable her, while Subaru takes that burden alongside part of Meili's burden from overusing Fiend Manipulation and can still keep going.

Maybe it's just that Geuse not being able to move is a result of him not being able to utilize the 10 Shackles like Ram does, which allows her to move although still with chronic pain and the physicality of a normal human.

 

[VortechsTG]

He wasn't fine at all even before she gets stabbed, he just has a superior physical body to Ram who is described as having an "inferior physical form", at least when compared without Flow Method.

He was moving around and able to do stuff. Obviously I'm exaggerating and he was affected but that is generally fine.

And Ram using 3 Shackles normally would just permanently disable her, while Subaru takes that burden alongside part of Meili's burden from overusing Fiend Manipulation and can still keep going.

That just furthur proves my point...

Maybe it's just that Geuse not being able to move is a result of him not being able to utilize the 10 Shackles like Ram does, which allows her to move although still with chronic pain and the physicality of a normal human.

Yeah, probably. The shackles were something she had to learn to enforce.

 

[Zabazab]

Apparently in Riot in Flanders, Reinhard makes nearly 100 people faint just by staring at them. Excited for it to be translated, I enjoyed the first half of it that was translated, Felt is my favourite Royal Candidate.

Also

“You’re just a sore loser, aren’t you? You were the one who suggested that you shouldn’t take part. So next time, do you wanna participate with your hands and feet bound in chains and make it a rule that you can’t touch any tometoes with your hands?”

“That’s it?”

“What do you mean ‘That’s it’? That’s psychotic!"

Reinhard being Reinhard

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Finished Sword Identity, good stuff.

Arakiya and Cecilius seem like dysfunctional siblings to me. Overall gave me a better impression of kimono dono.

Apparently Reinhard vs Cecilus round 2 was a tie, but not going down that rabbit hole again....

Will go on to the Priscilla side stories next.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Welp, my city level calcs have been accepted... yeah, just have to say it.

 

[VortechsTG]

Welp, my city level calcs have been accepted... yeah, just have to say it.

Awesome. Thank you for doing them!

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Cool, can make a thread for it tomorrow, to discuss scaling.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

So obviously... Reid and Reinhard upscales from these 7-B calcs, and Peak Wilhelm + Cecilus fully scales to 'em... although since Cecilus' feat is a bit stronger than Wilhelm's and did so casually (while Wil's was done through him seriously fighting that dragon albeit by sheer chance than conscious effect like Cecilus), there is a chance he might upscale from his feat. Hmm... what else.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Welp, my city level calcs have been accepted... yeah, just have to say it.

What calcs? And affects who?

 

[Zabazab]

Since Reinhard is stated to be able to one-shot Theresia, and Volcanica one-shot Valgren, I wonder if the top tiers 7-B value should be changed to 7-A, based on the 7.5 times difference typically assumed for a one-shot?

Q: How does Theresia's strength compare to Reinhard's?

A: She'd lose in one blow.

- Theresia van Astrea Birthday Q&A 2018

The Black Dragon let out a roar, and let loose three beams of white light from each of its mouths. The rays of heat coalesced and became one, firing straight towards Volcanica.

In front of them, Volcanica’s maw opened, and――

Volcanica:『――』

――The Divine Dragon filled the sky with a blue light and dispersed it without paying any heed to mounting a defence against the looming white light.

The breath of the Divine Dragon went straight forward, and swallowed the body of the Black Dragon up, without causing any damage to anything else en route to it. It hadn't been a cruel death, rather, the Black Dragon had been transformed into dust with a power that felt appropriate to be『Purification』

The Black Dragon’s existence, which had been trapped in madness, and forced to do other’s bidding against its will, was annihilated by the breath of the Divine Dragon.

Wilhelm:「――」

The immensely divine light cleared up, and the next moment, the Black Dragon’s figure was nowhere to be seen.

 

[Zabazab]

What calcs? And affects who?

Calcs are above in the thread, both city level- one by Peak Wilhelm in SDBB and one by casual Cecilus in SI.

It'll upgrade the majority of the verse probably, everyone > ~mid tiers I assume.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Since Reinhard is stated to be able to one-shot Theresia, and Volcanica one-shot Valgren, I wonder if the top tiers 7-B value should be changed to 7-A, based on the 7.5 times difference typically assumed for a one-shot?

Nah. we can't upscale that high, the accepted upscale multiplier is around 1.25 (more or less), if my memory serves me right... in fact, Reinhard initally was 7-A that way but a person who discovered this fact knew it was wrong and made a downgrade thread for it... then somebody made a calc that made Reinhard and co High 6-C.

 

[Zabazab]

Damn 1.25x seems... low, for an effortless oneshot, but I'm too lazy to make a fuss over it.

The directly scalable characters to the feats would ofc be Theresia, Kurgan, and Marcos, while the ones that downscale would probably be the BB cast, and maybe Arakiya.

Though tbh I wonder if Volcanica themself should even have the "7-B, possibly High 6-C" rating and should instead just be High 6-C, since when asked about Reinhard and Volcanica, Tappei said "If Reinhard draws Reid he'll be able to fight The Dragon".

 

[Fezzih_007]

Calcs are above in the thread, both city level- one by Peak Wilhelm in SDBB and one by casual Cecilus in SI.

It'll upgrade the majority of the verse probably, everyone > ~mid tiers I assume.

I see, i am making the profiles for the Prophecy of mid the throne characters, and two of the characters get affect by this i guess.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

7.5x is a vs thread thing, it's not used for actual upscaling, as Fanta pointed out the gap for upscaling to another tier is far less at 1.25x.

Top tiers are so vague, i don't think their ratings should be touched, at this point nobody should be solidly High 6-C imo.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

7.5x is a vs thread thing, it's not used for actual upscaling, as Fanta pointed out the gap for upscaling to another tier is far less at 1.25x.

Top tiers are so vague, i don't think their ratings should be touched, at this point nobody should be solidly High 6-C imo.

In a vs battle is a 1.25x difference a one shot or not?

 

[Zabazab]

True, though I would think that the 7-B justification for Puck and those > than him would be changed from snowstorm energy requirement to "stronger than X who performed Y feat".

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@SatellaTheWoE No as i said, in vs threads, last i remember, 7.5x is one shot. 1.25 is not a big enough gap to one shot in a vs thread.

@Zabazab Yea, tiers won't change for them, but the justification will.

 

[Fezzih_007]

In a vs battle is a 1.25x difference a one shot or not?

Is 5x times actually to One-Shot

Edit:NV is actually 7,5x i got the wrong call here.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Alright thanks for the clarification

 

[Zabazab]

I'm wanting to ask a question about Beatrice's listing as 8-B, the justification for it is "one-shotting Elsa" but wasn't the spell she used hax?

Vs Elsa she used the durability negating Minya to shatter her, does that make her ap 8-B? As a Yin specialist she has used pretty much exclusively hax in every fight, aside from arguably Ul Shamak which is just... a whole can of worms I do not feel like opening atm.

In terms of actual power we just have her having a minor scuffle with Roswaal & Ram where she blocks their attacks during the loop where Subaru commits suicide in Volume 3, her boasting and title as a Great Spirit which might not even mean anything power-wise, and then Author statements that suggest she is somewhere below Echidna.