Re:Creators Altair and Sirius CRT

[Dereck03]

Altair & Sirius Profiles sirius's profile has been deleted... again

Actually Altair's regeneration is Mid-Godly. (She was able to return even after her entire existence was erased by Sirius), hence the point of this CRT.

When Sirius eliminated Altair, she used "The Sixty-Sixth Movement of the Cosmos: Existence Change" and the description of this holopsicon movement is:

After paralyzing and suppressing the powers of the target, the user mortally wound herself. The target will then be absorbed even on a conceptual level, effectively bypassing resurrection, immortality, and regeneration. After the movement is complete, the target's body will be made into the user's and leave the target non-existent.

That means that sirius erased/absorbed Altair on a conceptual level by erasing her from all existence, without omitting the point that it eliminates the target at the conceptual level and leaving it in a state of non-existence. This would also apply to Altair, since she has the same movement with Holopsicon. Taking into account that holopsicon erases elements at the narrative level, sirius erased/abosorb Altair at a conceptual level by erasing her from existence, in this case at the narrative level. Taking this into account, as seen in the anime, due to the nature of the movement (Mid-Godly) it does not qualify, since being erased from the narrative at a conceptual level it qualifies for (High-Godly).



I would like to add the following:

For Altair

Regeneration (High-Godly. Altair was able to regenerate from conceptual destroyed after her entire existence was erased by Sirius)

Immortality Negation (Types 6 and 8) & Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. She was able to erase Sirius who possessed all her abilities and powers without being able to regenerate or take control of her body).

Resistance to Immortality Negation (Types 6, and 8) & Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. The target will be absorbed even on a conceptual level, effectively bypassing resurrection, immortality, and regeneration).

The nature of the movement implies that the absorption at conceptual level effectively bypassing resurrection, immortality, and regeneration. And Altair was able to come back after this

This will give High-Godly to Sirius. Actually Sirius was a perfect copy of Altair, possessing all her skills, techniques, resistances and even being able to use Holopsicon even at a higher level than Altair herself, for this reason being able to defeat her. But she would not be able to return after Altair took possession of her body, overwriting her existence and thus erasing her.

What do you guys think?

Agree: Confluctor, Bernkastelll, DaReaperMan (Neutral at High-Godly), TOAAPRESENCE1, Setsuna_tenma, Infinity_Shun, Delta333, Rabbit2002, imZer0Null, InfiniteCosmology

Disagree: Everything12 (High-Godly) DontTalkDT(Negation Stuffs), QuasiYuri (High-Godly), DarkDragonMedeus, Accelerate420

 

[Confluctor]

Makes sense to me, so I agree.


Let's see what others have to say

 

[Everything12]

She didn't regenerate on a conceptual level, it's just that when Sirius absorbed her concept Altair's concept proved more complex than Sirius' simpler concept and thus the absorption was flipped around and Altair devoured Sirius' existence. This is also why I think she shouldn't get the resistance, it was just as much about Sirius' weakness that she survived as it would be her strength.

Also, the Regeneration Negation would only be Mid-Godly because that's the limit to have effective absorbing a concept would be in negating regeneration.

 

[Dereck03]

She didn't regenerate on a conceptual level, it's just that when Sirius absorbed her concept Altair's concept proved more complex than Sirius' simpler concept and thus the absorption was flipped around and Altair devoured Sirius' existence. This is also why I think she shouldn't get the resistance, it was just as much about Sirius' weakness that she survived as it would be her strength.

Actually Sirius had erased/absorb Altair to the point where Altair's existence was 0... The complexity of Altair's existence was not something that was beyond Sirius' capabilities, but rather that even when her complete existence was 0 Altair was able to overcome and the fact that Sirius had minor flaws in her personality was easier for Altair to overwrite her existence thus taking control of her and overwriting sirius existence

 

[Dereck03]

Also, the Regeneration Negation would only be Mid-Godly because that's the limit to have effective absorbing a concept would be in negating regeneration.

but the EE that holopsicon exerts on verse is capable of erasing at the level of narrative so

 

[Bernkastelll]

Yeah I agree

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm neutral on the Regen for now, agree on everything else because they seem fine

 

[Dereck03]

altair was erased from her existence at narrative level by Sirius and was able to come back... So it qualify for High-Godly

 

[DaReaperMan]

I am waiting for Everything12 to get back here

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

seems simple so i agree

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Shyouu]

Finally this thread happen.. I'll try to contact some members

 

[Delta333]

agree,tbh I don't see any problem about high godly regen

 

[Rabbit2002]

agree,tbh I don't see any problem about high godly regen

Here

 

[Dereck03]

Here

High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying concept(s) or information needed for them to exist.

Altair's existence was 0, her concept of existence was Absorbed/Erased/Overwritten, most importantly in Re:Creators, her narrative was completely erased, as holopsicon exercises that kind of erasure, the information Altair needed, which is people's perceptions as well. . Altair was a being that no longer possessed history/narrative and could not be affected by a simple narrative erasure and yet she was erased at that level by holopsicon and was able to come back

 

[DontTalkDT]

Don't know the verse, so I won't comment on the regeneration stuff, but the Immortality/Regeneration Negation stuff is kinda weird.
Yeah, it bypasses immortality, but that is because it's conceptual absorption, right? Not because it has a specific anti-immortality effect added upon its basic functionality.
It's like saying that a fire attack that could kill a Type 3 Immortal with Mid Regen due to incinerating them is Immortality and Regeneration Negation of Type 3 Immortality up to Mid regen.
That in itself would be just redundant, but giving another character resistance to those negations then, for regenerating from being burned, would be stretching it.

 

[Dereck03]

Don't know the verse, so I won't comment on the regeneration stuff, but the Immortality/Regeneration Negation stuff is kinda weird.
Yeah, it bypasses immortality, but that is because it's conceptual absorption, right? Not because it has a specific anti-immortality effect added upon its basic functionality.
It's like saying that a fire attack that could kill a Type 3 Immortal with Mid Regen due to incinerating them is Immortality and Regeneration Negation of Type 3 Immortality up to Mid regen.
That in itself would be just redundant, but giving another character resistance to those negations then, for regenerating from being burned, would be stretching it.

Well, I will take for example a very similar case... Anos .... Immortality Negation (Types 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8) & Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. Was able to kill Anahem, an immortal demi-god who could regenerate his source/concept), He was able to accomplish these feats against a demi-god who was able to return from the destruction of his concept and was in any case immortal, but after Anos destroyed his concept, Anahem could not come back since he was completely denied. The same happens with Altair and Sirius, Altair was able to come back even though the movement should have denied Altair any chance of returning from the erasure of her existence. And erasing Sirius' concept of existence, while Sirius could not do anything, and Sirius has the same regeneration as Altair and with the same immortalities. And yeah as i said above the nature of the movement implies that the absorption at conceptual level effectively bypassing resurrection, immortality, and regeneration. Thus denying everything related to regeneration and immortalities.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well, I will take for example a very similar case... Anos .... Immortality Negation (Types 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8) & Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. Was able to kill Anahem, an immortal demi-god who could regenerate his source/concept), He was able to accomplish these feats against a demi-god who was able to return from the destruction of his concept and was in any case immortal, but after Anos destroyed his concept, Anahem could not come back since he was completely denied. The same happens with Altair and Sirius, Altair was able to come back even though the movement should have denied Altair any chance of returning from the erasure of her existence. And erasing Sirius' concept of existence, while Sirius could not do anything, and Sirius has the same regeneration as Altair and with the same immortalities. And yeah as i said above the nature of the movement implies that the absorption at conceptual level effectively bypassing resurrection, immortality, and regeneration. Thus denying everything related to regeneration and immortalities.

I don't know Anos so I don't know how accurate the analogy to this case is... and his profile could easily just be wrong as well.
Anyways, I still don't see your point yet.
Like, for a start, you said Sirius has all of Altair's abilities and powers, not just all her immortalities. However, they can obviously not have exactly the same powers in general, as (by how I understand the scene from what was explained) Altair can survive Sirius' Existence Change, but Sirius can't survive Altair's Existence Change.
So I see two ways to interpret that (assuming we accept regeneration at all. As said, no comment on that. Leaving that to knowledgeable people):

1. Sirius has a worse Existence Change than Altair and both can regenerate from that, but neither has feats of regenerating from Altair's version.
2. Sirius has worse regeneration than Altair, not being able to survive Existence Change, but both have the same level of Existence Change.

If (1) applies then it's Sirius' version wouldn't have Immortality/Regeneration Negation, because it has no feats of that and doesn't scale to Altair's better version. It would just be conceptual absorption which can of course overcome high-level immortality/regeneration by nature. Consequently, Altair would not need resistance to Regeneration/Immortality Negation as her regeneration would just be higher than what the technique causes in destruction. Altair's version of Existence Change would however get Immortality/Regeneration Negation then, as it demonstrated killing Sirius who, due to her immortality/regeneration, should have survived conceptual absorption.
If (2) applies, however, then only Altair has the high-level regeneration, meaning Sirius doesn't even survive conceptual absorption without it having any added Immortality/Regeneration negating effects. So then neither of them would get Immortality/Regeneration Negation or resistance to it.

 

[Dereck03]

I don't know Anos so I don't know how accurate the analogy to this case is... and his profile could easily just be wrong as well.
Anyways, I still don't see your point yet.
Like, for a start, you said Sirius has all of Altair's abilities and powers, not just all her immortalities. However, they can obviously not have exactly the same powers in general, as (by how I understand the scene from what was explained) Altair can survive Sirius' Existence Change, but Sirius can't survive Altair's Existence Change.
So I see two ways to interpret that (assuming we accept regeneration at all. As said, no comment on that. Leaving that to knowledgeable people):

1. Sirius has a worse Existence Change than Altair and both can regenerate from that, but neither has feats of regenerating from Altair's version.
2. Sirius has worse regeneration than Altair, not being able to survive Existence Change, but both have the same level of Existence Change.

If (1) applies then it's Sirius' version wouldn't have Immortality/Regeneration Negation, because it has no feats of that and doesn't scale to Altair's better version. It would just be conceptual absorption which can of course overcome high-level immortality/regeneration by nature. Consequently, Altair would not need resistance to Regeneration/Immortality Negation as her regeneration would just be higher than what the technique causes in destruction. Altair's version of Existence Change would however get Immortality/Regeneration Negation then, as it demonstrated killing Sirius who, due to her immortality/regeneration, should have survived conceptual absorption.
If (2) applies, however, then only Altair has the high-level regeneration, meaning Sirius doesn't even survive conceptual absorption without it having any added Immortality/Regeneration negating effects. So then neither of them would get Immortality/Regeneration Negation or resistance to it.

In the anime it was said and shown that Sirius is a copy of everything that Altair possessed, powers, abilities, resistances, etc. It was classified as an identical copy so far since the information of everything that Altair possessed had been gathered and even Altair herself emphasized it when she said that the only thing that was different from Sirius was that Sirius was visually the first model of Altair. According to your points. Actually we could say that Sirius' handling of holopsicon was superior to Altair's implying that it was a "copy" that was capable of surpassing the original, not that one had worse Existence Change than the other, my reasons imply that Sirius erased Altair, overwriting/absorbing/deleting the concept of the existence in the verse which in this case is the narrative and the acceptance that in regeneration qualifies for High-Godly, then specifying that Altair's complete existence is 0 emphasizing again that the existence in the verse is the narrative . Altair was able to return from the erasure of her narrative, in the act taking possession of Sirius' body, erasing the concept of Sirius' existence which in this case the narrative as well, and Sirius possessing all that Altair possesses, could not return from such erasure, I the only thing I asked for Sirius is the upgrade of her regeneration to High-Godly, while Altair will gain all that is written in the OP. And taking into account that Altair has no narrative that can be affected normally since she was freed from such a concept, even so she was affected by the holopsicon erasure, but the difference is that Altair managed to come back even while her regeneration, immortalities, resurrection were being denied, while sirius could not.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

Altair & Sirius Profiles sirius's profile has been deleted... again

Actually Altair's regeneration is Mid-Godly. (She was able to return even after her entire existence was erased by Sirius), hence the point of this CRT.

When Sirius eliminated Altair, she used "The Sixty-Sixth Movement of the Cosmos: Existence Change" and the description of this holopsicon movement is:

After paralyzing and suppressing the powers of the target, the user mortally wound herself. The target will then be absorbed even on a conceptual level, effectively bypassing resurrection, immortality, and regeneration. After the movement is complete, the target's body will be made into the user's and leave the target non-existent.

That means that sirius erased/absorbed Altair on a conceptual level by erasing her from all existence, without omitting the point that it eliminates the target at the conceptual level and leaving it in a state of non-existence. This would also apply to Altair, since she has the same movement with Holopsicon. Taking into account that holopsicon erases elements at the narrative level, sirius erased/abosorb Altair at a conceptual level by erasing her from existence, in this case at the narrative level. Taking this into account, as seen in the anime, due to the nature of the movement (Mid-Godly) it does not qualify, since being erased from the narrative at a conceptual level it qualifies for (High-Godly).



I would like to add the following:

For Altair

Regeneration (High-Godly. Altair was able to regenerate from conceptual destroyed after her entire existence was erased by Sirius)

Immortality Negation (Types 1, 3, 5, 6, and 8) & Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. She was able to erase Sirius who possessed all her abilities and powers without being able to regenerate or take control of her body).

Resistance to Immortality Negation (Types 1, 3, 5, 6, and 8) & Regeneration Negation (High-Godly. The target will be absorbed even on a conceptual level, effectively bypassing resurrection, immortality, and regeneration).

The nature of the movement implies that the absorption at conceptual level effectively bypassing resurrection, immortality, and regeneration. And Altair was able to come back after this

This will give High-Godly to Sirius. Actually Sirius was a perfect copy of Altair, possessing all her skills, techniques, resistances and even being able to use Holopsicon even at a higher level than Altair herself, for this reason being able to defeat her. But she would not be able to return after Altair took possession of her body, overwriting her existence and thus erasing her.

What do you guys think?

Agree, completely.

 

[Dereck03]

.

I am waiting for Everything12 to get back here

.

.

I have already explained all my points against your arguments, so what is still your opinion?

 

[Delta333]

Btw immortality neg is about killing immortal being,in this case Sirius doesn’t kill Altair with physical attack or death manip,instead she absorbed Altair at conceptual level to bypass immortality/regen etc so I don’t think it’s valid(but still agree with high godly regen anyway)

 

[Dereck03]

Btw immortality neg is about killing immortal being,in this case Sirius doesn’t kill Altair with physical attack or death manip,instead she absorbed Altair at conceptual level to bypass immortality/regen etc so I don’t think it’s valid(but still agree with high godly regen anyway)

Absorb/Erased/Overwrite Sirius narrative/concept of existence doesn't mean kill anyway?

 

[Delta333]

Absorb/Erased/Overwrite Sirius narrative/concept of existence doesn't mean kill anyway?

Conceptual absorption or erasure doesn’t mean killing,many characters will have immortality neg with that logic lol

 

[Dereck03]

Absorption or erasure doesn’t mean killing,many characters will have immortality neg with that logic lol

And many characters has immortality neg by that logic and I don't see them having problems or being rejected

 

[Delta333]

And many characters has immortality neg by that logic and I don't see them having problems or being rejected

You need to kill someone with traditional way to have immortality neg,I can give you tons of characters that can erasre concept but don’t have that ability if you want

 

[Dereck03]

You need to kill someone with traditional way to have immortality neg,I can give you tons of characters that can erasre concept but don’t have that ability if you want

No thanks... I still maintain my point, already many people agree with the improvements and already explained my reasons about the OP, if I see that somehow disagree I will simply obviate some immortalities but leaving the Type 8.

 

[InfiniteCosmology]

You need to kill someone with traditional way to have immortality neg,I can give you tons of characters that can erasre concept but don’t have that ability if you want

Yes, but that person may die if:-

(1)The concept destroyed is a part of that person's abstraction.
and
(2)Do not possess any immortality and resistance towards conceptual erasure and no regeneration.
Don't mind me, I was just spitting facts.

 

[Delta333]

No thanks... I still maintain my point, already many people agree with the improvements and already explained my reasons about the OP, if I see that somehow disagree I will simply obviate some immortalities but leaving the Type 8.

I mean high godly regen neg can be kept too since Sirius can regen from conceptual erasure but can’t comeback due to Altair erasure(maybe also immortality neg type 6 and 8 are valid) I just disagree with immortality neg type 1,3,5 since they’re completely wrong

 

[Dereck03]

I mean high godly regen neg can be kept too since Sirius can regen from conceptual erasure but can’t comeback due to Altair erasure(maybe also immortality neg type 6 and 8 are valid) I just disagree with immortality neg type 1,3,5 since they’re completely wrong

I could agree to remove 1 and 3, but not 5, since Sirius can only be erased by EE, the same that Altair exerted on her.

 

[Delta333]

I could agree to remove 1 and 3, but not 5, since Sirius can only be erased by EE, the same that Altair exerted on her.

Her type 5 comes from the fact that she can’t be harmed normally,which means Sirius need to bypass it with normal attack to gain immortality neg type 5,however in this case Sirius uses conceptual hax to bypass it and I’m pretty sure no one that bypass immortality via CM can gain immortality neg,the only reason I don’t disagree with type 6 and 8 is because she can regen from conceptual erasure with them but with type 5 she can’t

 

[Shyouu]

I have already explained all my points against your arguments, so what is still your opinion

What Argument? I never argue'd in this thread. also it seems I wasn't clear, I agree on the upgrade.

 

[Dereck03]

Her type 5 comes from the fact that she can’t be harmed normally,which means Sirius need to bypass it with normal attack to gain immortality neg type 5,however in this case Sirius uses conceptual hax to bypass it and I’m pretty sure no one that bypass immortality via CM can gain immortality neg,the only reason I don’t disagree with type 6 and 8 is because she can regen from conceptual erasure with them but with type 5 she can’t

Oh god... agree with you because I don't want to make this thread longer... Type 6 and 8... done

 

[Dereck03]

What Argument? I never argue'd in this thread. also it seems I wasn't clear, I agree on the upgrade.

Sorry ... I just pinned you cuz your answer wasn't clear

 

[Secretly_domain]

I'm staying neutral with high-godly regeneration

 

[Dereck03]

I'm staying neutral with high-godly regeneration

Reasons?

 

[Secretly_domain]

Reasons?

I need to reread again the conversation is too complicated for me

 

[Rabbit2002]

Agree with this
Also (a bit of an ad), there was a CRT also related to High-Godly but it's dead
Can you guys revive it, please !(just agree with it or not)

https://vsbattles.com/threads/scp-revision-thread-with-some-big-concept-nep-regen-stuff-of-scp.117368/

 

[Dereck03]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I trust the judgements of DontTalk and Everything12, and DarkDragonMedeus and QuasiYuri also seem to agree with them.