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And, since nobody commented on the device not breaking, devices in general.
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Rakudai AP and Soul CRT
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
- Start date
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So you don't need to have more magic, just output more magic than the person at the moment you attack? Because that is what you are telling me.
And nothing was said at any point, just out of nowhere "difference of opinion, so we are now talking about devices". I don't just divine suddenly something was dropped despite this never being said, Ion.
... Having more durability doesn't make durability non existent, it just means Devices resist that stuff. And your other example fails to work completely when I don't even know the tier of these dudes when they did this thing. Like, if Naseem took that Meteor, why the hell isn't he dead if this should be above his punching strength and durability? Because if it isn't, the device is on the very same level. Likewise for Stella with no knowledge of her tier and how much energy you'd need to split a mountain in half.
And nothing was said at any point, just out of nowhere "difference of opinion, so we are now talking about devices". I don't just divine suddenly something was dropped despite this never being said, Ion.
... Having more durability doesn't make durability non existent, it just means Devices resist that stuff. And your other example fails to work completely when I don't even know the tier of these dudes when they did this thing. Like, if Naseem took that Meteor, why the hell isn't he dead if this should be above his punching strength and durability? Because if it isn't, the device is on the very same level. Likewise for Stella with no knowledge of her tier and how much energy you'd need to split a mountain in half.
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A device is the concentration of magic though. It's not "output". But ikki is a special case, by using Ittou Shura he effectively increases his magic capacity. Which is why he can do a 200x amp whereas even A ranks like Stella stop at several dozens with noble arts. It's just Ittou forms that are exceptions.
And your durability point, i don't get it. Ikki with an AP of Low 7-C and no ittou forms could clash with Stella's device and not break. About Nassem's durability, it's not about that you brought up the point of "ikki broke it against Touka", yeah so? Start of the series. Doesn't mean devices just break with finger flicks now. Cus your point of "Ikki broke Touka's device therefore the device tanking 5-B isn't legit" is outright wrong. Otherwise 6-B current stella would sneeze at literally every other device and turn it to atoms.
And your durability point, i don't get it. Ikki with an AP of Low 7-C and no ittou forms could clash with Stella's device and not break. About Nassem's durability, it's not about that you brought up the point of "ikki broke it against Touka", yeah so? Start of the series. Doesn't mean devices just break with finger flicks now. Cus your point of "Ikki broke Touka's device therefore the device tanking 5-B isn't legit" is outright wrong. Otherwise 6-B current stella would sneeze at literally every other device and turn it to atoms.
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Anyway I agree with Earl on this one.
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Question
How far into 6B is Stella? This is important for revisions
How far into 6B is Stella? This is important for revisions
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- #126
Revisions? More revisions? xDSchnee One said:
About that, iirc it's just her High 6-C calc x 48 or 36 don't remember (she has a several dozens statement on her multiplier).
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I need an exact number, because Fu Xioali can be High 6B with her multiplier
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- #128
Yeah just check stella's high 6c calc. Multiply it by 36/48 then you'll get the exact number.
But about fu xiaoli it doesn't matter too much. Considering her ap is that x mass of edelberg/ stella's mass. So it's MUCH higher even than high 6b. But if that multiplier gives high 6b then sure.
Here is the calc. User blog:Firephoenixearl/Stella's Bahamut Howl
But about fu xiaoli it doesn't matter too much. Considering her ap is that x mass of edelberg/ stella's mass. So it's MUCH higher even than high 6b. But if that multiplier gives high 6b then sure.
Here is the calc. User blog:Firephoenixearl/Stella's Bahamut Howl
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You are telling me he uses the magical energy total in one minute and one second - what is this if not pumping out all his energy in way less time, equaling output? Do tell me what Devices being concentrations of energy mean at all.
So, shouldn't Ikki be higher in tier as well since his arms aren't getting ripped off by the force...? If the device scales, Ikki should as well. But if for some reason he doesn't, like skill-ing his way out of it by carefully taking the attack, the Device also falls subject to this because the full power of the attack wouldn't be impacting it. And no, you are just completely disregarding my point. That being, all 3 of those instances have no character in 5-B at all. Or that, better yet, why isn't Stella completely ripping into pieces anyone she barely even sneezes on while goinf 6-B on anyone not 6-B? Because the author wasn't thinking about that at all, despite the fact it should by all means happen.
So, shouldn't Ikki be higher in tier as well since his arms aren't getting ripped off by the force...? If the device scales, Ikki should as well. But if for some reason he doesn't, like skill-ing his way out of it by carefully taking the attack, the Device also falls subject to this because the full power of the attack wouldn't be impacting it. And no, you are just completely disregarding my point. That being, all 3 of those instances have no character in 5-B at all. Or that, better yet, why isn't Stella completely ripping into pieces anyone she barely even sneezes on while goinf 6-B on anyone not 6-B? Because the author wasn't thinking about that at all, despite the fact it should by all means happen.
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I can't convert
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- #131
Because it is not output exactly because you cannot output that much magic normally. Ikki doesn't have that much magic however if he piles up all the magic he has during an entire day he has more magic than a b rank. It's not output the same as giving 50% vs giving 100%. Like saying I can only drink 1l of water another person can drink 2. That is our full limit. However if i count the amount of water I drink in 3 days I am technically drinking more in 3 days than he can in 1. That's the idea. And devices being magic means they don't have output, they are constant durability. Whether you use a 5b attack or a 9a attack with your device it doesn't matter your device is still as durable as 5b or higher.
Not really. Ikki uses his sword to do all his stuff. When using madoka he attacks with the full power of a 6b but he can't do the same with fists. And stella doesn't exactly have any loss against lower tier ppl whose name isn't ikki. So i don't know what the point was.
Not really. Ikki uses his sword to do all his stuff. When using madoka he attacks with the full power of a 6b but he can't do the same with fists. And stella doesn't exactly have any loss against lower tier ppl whose name isn't ikki. So i don't know what the point was.
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- #132
??Schnee One said:
I think she barely makes the cut for high 6b
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You also can't do something like Ittou Shura normally, but Ikki can, so saying "can't normally" doesn't mean much. And no, I am not saying is anything like holding back or going all out, but literally, forcibly burning through your mana in a much quicker pace. Instead of eating 10 units of mana from a tank of 1000 for second, you burn 100. It goes way faster, but is above your normal output. And you said they are made from the magic of the user, so it stands to reason they may have similar endurance. If you are outputting more, or can do so, it is more durable. Otherwise you make no sense when 3 instance of Devices breaking were done by people in different levels of power.
That's a terrible example. Ikki's body doesn't get wrecked either despite the fact the energy goes through him too, because the energy isn't interacting with him. The sword is not being subjected to anything because if it was, Ikki wouldn't be sending back 100% of the energy. The sword would be getting subjected to a part of this, which we know isn't the case by simple logic if he's resending 100% of the attack. And I am seriously confused if you are even reading what I said. My point is that we see LITTERALLY ALL THE TIME people way above someone's ballpark punch people that are much weaker and they don't get turned into gibs of flesh. So why do we make an exception for Devices if the user is defending with them? They both are taking the energy, why is the Device being okay proof but the person not being torn into pieces as they should ignored? This would make it obvious the Author wasn't thinking about that at all in the first place.
That's a terrible example. Ikki's body doesn't get wrecked either despite the fact the energy goes through him too, because the energy isn't interacting with him. The sword is not being subjected to anything because if it was, Ikki wouldn't be sending back 100% of the energy. The sword would be getting subjected to a part of this, which we know isn't the case by simple logic if he's resending 100% of the attack. And I am seriously confused if you are even reading what I said. My point is that we see LITTERALLY ALL THE TIME people way above someone's ballpark punch people that are much weaker and they don't get turned into gibs of flesh. So why do we make an exception for Devices if the user is defending with them? They both are taking the energy, why is the Device being okay proof but the person not being torn into pieces as they should ignored? This would make it obvious the Author wasn't thinking about that at all in the first place.
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- #134
Using a dude who can specifically increase his current magic capacity doesn't prove your point. Ikki had more magic than touka.
No cus ikki can't use madoka with his fists he redirects the damage then the sword hits the opponent with THAT much damage. Could you mention any cases of your literally all the time? Im curious. Cus all of your argument here lies on the fact that that happens at all.
No cus ikki can't use madoka with his fists he redirects the damage then the sword hits the opponent with THAT much damage. Could you mention any cases of your literally all the time? Im curious. Cus all of your argument here lies on the fact that that happens at all.
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- #135
Ok so the current conclusions are:
1. Touka's Raikiri should scale to 7-B, likely High 6-C (Scaling from Stella's attack, Takemikazuchi is higher cus it could get past Ouma's shield).
2. Ouma's durability should scale to Dragon Spirit Stella's AP (High 7-A, likely 6-B), cus he could get up after attacks from DS Stella.
- Soul attack resistance from devices
- Device scales to Tatara's attack
- Soul manip non combat applicable
- Lifting strength.
1. Touka's Raikiri should scale to 7-B, likely High 6-C (Scaling from Stella's attack, Takemikazuchi is higher cus it could get past Ouma's shield).
2. Ouma's durability should scale to Dragon Spirit Stella's AP (High 7-A, likely 6-B), cus he could get up after attacks from DS Stella.
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Hold on your horses there, the calc wasn't accepted
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- #137
Never said it was....
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Touka's Raikiri being like that is ok, but it would be in another key?
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- #139
Not really, she doesn't have any mentioned upgrades from the short amount of time between selection battles arc and this.
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Except that still isn't increasing magic capacity, I don't know how you could think that. Your explanation especifically was very confusing.
That's not how that works. Let me summarize to make it better. Wallestain being stopped doesn't indicate higher dura, it just means they resist that stuff. Stella cutting a mountain is not higher dura, she was the one cutting it so that's all her AP, which doesn't hurt her so it scales to dura, which means her sword and her are on the same level. Naseem is PIS unless he scales to the debris falling because he BLOCKS it, so his arms should also be affected, meaning he is the same durability as his Device. If he isn't scaled to it, there should be literally no reason to scale his Device when he blocked it head on, that's cherry picking. Madoka also doesn't work, because by the Third Law the energy should affect Ikki if it affects the sword because he's pretty obviously grabbing it. There's not some forcefield stopping the kinetic energy from interacting with Ikki's body and no mention ever of the recoil of the reflected energy affecting him or his sword, ever. Literally all examples you brought up don't work at all.
That's not how that works. Let me summarize to make it better. Wallestain being stopped doesn't indicate higher dura, it just means they resist that stuff. Stella cutting a mountain is not higher dura, she was the one cutting it so that's all her AP, which doesn't hurt her so it scales to dura, which means her sword and her are on the same level. Naseem is PIS unless he scales to the debris falling because he BLOCKS it, so his arms should also be affected, meaning he is the same durability as his Device. If he isn't scaled to it, there should be literally no reason to scale his Device when he blocked it head on, that's cherry picking. Madoka also doesn't work, because by the Third Law the energy should affect Ikki if it affects the sword because he's pretty obviously grabbing it. There's not some forcefield stopping the kinetic energy from interacting with Ikki's body and no mention ever of the recoil of the reflected energy affecting him or his sword, ever. Literally all examples you brought up don't work at all.
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- #141
Wrong and wrong.
"That's a lie! Those movements, that's far more than just doubled! And besides, I've never heard of magic power also rising alongside physical strength!"
From a non analytical point of view, his magic power DOES rise. The explanation matters less cus as Stella herself explains, he is virtually increasing his magic capacity. Like tapping into 100% of your brain, you just can't, Ikki's using the same concept but with magic instead. If you were to use 100% of your brain, you'd be smarter, while not technically being smarter, but your 100% brain would be smarter than other people's 15% brain, that's the idea, if the other person were to use 100% too then he'd be smarter than you, since he can't you're virtually smarter. So idk what you're arguing here when the story is saying "it's the same as increasing his magical power", because he removes limitations.
"Yes. My magic power hasn't increased. I'm just tapping into power I couldn't before, after willfully exceeding my limitations."
I could go on to still explain why those cases are wrong, but i will give you the characters themselves saying "a device is more durable":
Tendou's body is no longer human and has strong defense like a Device so ordinary methods can't harm him.
ÒÇîIt's the first time I've ever seen a Device get broke…. Is the president still alive?ÒÇì
Devices are able to withstand a great deal of damage without bending let alone break.
And here is an example of what happened when Stella's sword got hit by madoka as opposed to when Stella herself got hit by madoka:
Without a single worry, Stella swung her sword down without holding back.
However-
"Third Secret Sword-Madoka."
The attack that struck Stella immediately after far exceeded expectations.
"!?!?!?"
The sound of the resulting hit would best be described as an explosion, and this time Stella was the one sent flying.
Even as Stella braced her legs to try and stop, she slid backwards while chipping the concrete. Like Ikki earlier, she was driven to the edge of the ring.
Not a single dent on the sword, just her body being pushed back from the huge amount of energy. Here is the same hit, same madoka hitting stella herself:
And then a blade reacted, as if just passing by, cutting through flesh and bone alike.
Blood redder than the magma dampened the floating slab they stood on.
That blood was hot enough to be on fire.
"Eh…?"
It could be no one else.
That was the Crimson Princess Stella Vermillion's, dragon's blood.
ÔùåÔùçÔùåÔùçÔùå
ÒÇîÒÇîÒÇîOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!ÒÇìÒÇìÒÇì
ÒÇîA C-Counterattack! Just as we thought the match was decided! An impossible counterattack from Fighter Kurogane, who we thought to be in a hopeless situation! He cleaved her diagonally from below! What a reversal!ÒÇì
ÒÇîIt's Ma, Madoka! The impact of Fighter Stella's attack was returned by his ingrained swordsmanship! I can't believe it! He could still do something in that state!ÒÇì
"Gah, Haa!"
ÒÇîFighter Stella has dropped to her knees! Boiling hot blood is spilling onto the white stone! This amount of blood is not normal!ÒÇì
(This damage is… Not good…!)
While pressing down entrails that threatened to spill out, Stella moaned.
For Stella, within whom a the power of a dragon resided, this was not fatal.
But even with the vitality of a dragon, this injury would take time to recover from.
She would at least be unable to really move for dozens of seconds.
If she was attacked now she would be finished.
Sensing this, Stella mustered all her willpower to stand and beat a retreat.
ÒÇîFighter Stella is staggering away! She's put some distance between them!ÒÇì
"Ahhhh..!"
However, once she got an island away, Stella collapsed again.
Her vision wavered. Her limbs had no strength.
So basically if she didn't have Regenerationn she would have died. From the same attack which Stella's own sword didn't even bend.
On to the rest of the points:
*No, tanking Wallenstein's dura neg attack was done simply because it had more magic so it couldn't break it.
*The hit from madoka is a reflected hit, it doesn't come back to Ikki. Because it depends on the direction of the force. Just for context, i showed you what happened when he takes the blow using intetsu. Here is him doing the same but without Intetsu
Ikki tried to take it with Intetsu and let his body retreat, but he found that he couldn't put any power in it.
Why the heck?
In the instant Ikki realized that-
An incredible impact had run Ikki through the stomach.
"!?!?"
The thing that had pierced Ikki's stomach was Stella's left fist, glowing like heated iron.
The strike from her right hand had been a decoy.
The main goal was the body blow with the fist.
It was the combination she'd used against The Unturning, Yui Tatara, in her first round match.
The strike, which hit Ikki like a superheated cannonball, punched through his abs in one hit and shattered his ribs. Not only that, the heat scorched his insides.
That was far more damage than the human body could take.
"Geh, eh, a...."
With that one body shot, Ikki Kurogane's consciousness faded.
And before you say "he didn't tech it" if he had used intetsu he would have created distance from stella, the same didn't happen because he couldn't put intetsu in position in time.
And there are more cases like that. Like or gaule being trash in defense but his threads being capable of stopping Stella's swords etc. Not to mention the series itself tells you "devices are a lot more durable than blazers"
"That's a lie! Those movements, that's far more than just doubled! And besides, I've never heard of magic power also rising alongside physical strength!"
From a non analytical point of view, his magic power DOES rise. The explanation matters less cus as Stella herself explains, he is virtually increasing his magic capacity. Like tapping into 100% of your brain, you just can't, Ikki's using the same concept but with magic instead. If you were to use 100% of your brain, you'd be smarter, while not technically being smarter, but your 100% brain would be smarter than other people's 15% brain, that's the idea, if the other person were to use 100% too then he'd be smarter than you, since he can't you're virtually smarter. So idk what you're arguing here when the story is saying "it's the same as increasing his magical power", because he removes limitations.
"Yes. My magic power hasn't increased. I'm just tapping into power I couldn't before, after willfully exceeding my limitations."
I could go on to still explain why those cases are wrong, but i will give you the characters themselves saying "a device is more durable":
Tendou's body is no longer human and has strong defense like a Device so ordinary methods can't harm him.
ÒÇîIt's the first time I've ever seen a Device get broke…. Is the president still alive?ÒÇì
Devices are able to withstand a great deal of damage without bending let alone break.
And here is an example of what happened when Stella's sword got hit by madoka as opposed to when Stella herself got hit by madoka:
Without a single worry, Stella swung her sword down without holding back.
However-
"Third Secret Sword-Madoka."
The attack that struck Stella immediately after far exceeded expectations.
"!?!?!?"
The sound of the resulting hit would best be described as an explosion, and this time Stella was the one sent flying.
Even as Stella braced her legs to try and stop, she slid backwards while chipping the concrete. Like Ikki earlier, she was driven to the edge of the ring.
Not a single dent on the sword, just her body being pushed back from the huge amount of energy. Here is the same hit, same madoka hitting stella herself:
And then a blade reacted, as if just passing by, cutting through flesh and bone alike.
Blood redder than the magma dampened the floating slab they stood on.
That blood was hot enough to be on fire.
"Eh…?"
It could be no one else.
That was the Crimson Princess Stella Vermillion's, dragon's blood.
ÔùåÔùçÔùåÔùçÔùå
ÒÇîÒÇîÒÇîOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!ÒÇìÒÇìÒÇì
ÒÇîA C-Counterattack! Just as we thought the match was decided! An impossible counterattack from Fighter Kurogane, who we thought to be in a hopeless situation! He cleaved her diagonally from below! What a reversal!ÒÇì
ÒÇîIt's Ma, Madoka! The impact of Fighter Stella's attack was returned by his ingrained swordsmanship! I can't believe it! He could still do something in that state!ÒÇì
"Gah, Haa!"
ÒÇîFighter Stella has dropped to her knees! Boiling hot blood is spilling onto the white stone! This amount of blood is not normal!ÒÇì
(This damage is… Not good…!)
While pressing down entrails that threatened to spill out, Stella moaned.
For Stella, within whom a the power of a dragon resided, this was not fatal.
But even with the vitality of a dragon, this injury would take time to recover from.
She would at least be unable to really move for dozens of seconds.
If she was attacked now she would be finished.
Sensing this, Stella mustered all her willpower to stand and beat a retreat.
ÒÇîFighter Stella is staggering away! She's put some distance between them!ÒÇì
"Ahhhh..!"
However, once she got an island away, Stella collapsed again.
Her vision wavered. Her limbs had no strength.
So basically if she didn't have Regenerationn she would have died. From the same attack which Stella's own sword didn't even bend.
On to the rest of the points:
*No, tanking Wallenstein's dura neg attack was done simply because it had more magic so it couldn't break it.
*The hit from madoka is a reflected hit, it doesn't come back to Ikki. Because it depends on the direction of the force. Just for context, i showed you what happened when he takes the blow using intetsu. Here is him doing the same but without Intetsu
Ikki tried to take it with Intetsu and let his body retreat, but he found that he couldn't put any power in it.
Why the heck?
In the instant Ikki realized that-
An incredible impact had run Ikki through the stomach.
"!?!?"
The thing that had pierced Ikki's stomach was Stella's left fist, glowing like heated iron.
The strike from her right hand had been a decoy.
The main goal was the body blow with the fist.
It was the combination she'd used against The Unturning, Yui Tatara, in her first round match.
The strike, which hit Ikki like a superheated cannonball, punched through his abs in one hit and shattered his ribs. Not only that, the heat scorched his insides.
That was far more damage than the human body could take.
"Geh, eh, a...."
With that one body shot, Ikki Kurogane's consciousness faded.
And before you say "he didn't tech it" if he had used intetsu he would have created distance from stella, the same didn't happen because he couldn't put intetsu in position in time.
And there are more cases like that. Like or gaule being trash in defense but his threads being capable of stopping Stella's swords etc. Not to mention the series itself tells you "devices are a lot more durable than blazers"
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It doesn't explicitly say that her sword was undamaged.
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- #143
1. It's a HUGE deal whenever a sword gets even scratched, it gets mentioned every time.The God Of Procrastination said:
2. She continued a HUGE fight after that and that includes blocking literal tons of Madoka attacks with her sword. If it had gotten damaged it would have broken at some point, the sword was fine after all the madoka hits.
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Except that concept doesn't work, because that would imply there's some level of magical power people can't access but that is there, like Second Origins in Fairy Tail. And, you are free to prove me wrong if it's ever said anywhere, this thing doesn't exist in Rakudai. He is using his reserves way more quickly in much less time, unless there's anything that indicates otherwise I don't see anything backing your explanation. Or is there anything that implies mages don't use all their magic power because its dangerous or whatever, like muscles not using full power to not tear themselves apart?
And those are actually much better, even if I find.... extremely weird and confusing that Stella's own strength is enough to cause her a hit that debilitates her nearly half a minute yet she doesn't feel anything while striking stuff.
Still, I have no clue why you didn't start with these. That said, I see you didn't even understand what I was talking about, Earl. More durability means nothing against durability negation, and Ikki's Madoka would affect him by Newton's Third Law if it was affecting his sword. So again, they were terrible and useless examples. How hard is this to get?
And those are actually much better, even if I find.... extremely weird and confusing that Stella's own strength is enough to cause her a hit that debilitates her nearly half a minute yet she doesn't feel anything while striking stuff.
Still, I have no clue why you didn't start with these. That said, I see you didn't even understand what I was talking about, Earl. More durability means nothing against durability negation, and Ikki's Madoka would affect him by Newton's Third Law if it was affecting his sword. So again, they were terrible and useless examples. How hard is this to get?
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- #145
Hmm ok so news on the calc. So the math and calc are fine however there is a problem with the ability on whether it can go up to that level of power with reflection. Which I believe can be discussed here.
So tatara's reflect has been shown to work on all kinds of attacks to reflect them at full potency and has never reflected only a part of the attack even when the attack is too much to handle. Ein struck tatara with more force than she could handle and it broke through her reflect, it didn't get only a part of the attack reflected. We can now place views on agreeing or disagreeing along with reasons for the latter.
@Sir
Keep your opinion, it's yours, I'm just showing you the facts. That practically speaking ikki does increase his magic capacity even if it is just him using more magic than b ranks instead of actually increasing.
I guess we agree here then
So tatara's reflect has been shown to work on all kinds of attacks to reflect them at full potency and has never reflected only a part of the attack even when the attack is too much to handle. Ein struck tatara with more force than she could handle and it broke through her reflect, it didn't get only a part of the attack reflected. We can now place views on agreeing or disagreeing along with reasons for the latter.
@Sir
Keep your opinion, it's yours, I'm just showing you the facts. That practically speaking ikki does increase his magic capacity even if it is just him using more magic than b ranks instead of actually increasing.
I guess we agree here then
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I will apply the points that were agreed here then.
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