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I will do so once i get home.Antvasima said:
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Rakudai AP and Soul CRT
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
- Start date
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- #43
I mean, here's the thread, Thread:3503434. Conclusion "Soul manipulation comes in too many different forms for us to divide them in types".
@Ant.
This is the problem, logically speaking this would make sense (for the soul manip resistance in the OP to be limited) but a thread a made a while ago it was concluded that that notion doesn't work otherwise every form of soul resistance would be limited due to soul coming in far too many forms and can therefore not be divided into types. So what should we do?
@Ant.
This is the problem, logically speaking this would make sense (for the soul manip resistance in the OP to be limited) but a thread a made a while ago it was concluded that that notion doesn't work otherwise every form of soul resistance would be limited due to soul coming in far too many forms and can therefore not be divided into types. So what should we do?
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I mean that's what I did in that thread. Ask them, they said no.
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Ok so taking the points one by one and stating the agreements:
- Soul Manip - Agreed by everyone, it's not combat applicable
- Soul attack resistance - Agreed by most due to "the strength of their souls" being 5-B weapons.
- Resistance to Edelweiss - Just resistance to weird Fear Manip
- Lifting Strength - Agreed, just need to apply it.
- 5-B AP - Mostly agreed, i am still not sure whether I need to call another calc member.
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Does the 5B AP scale to anyone? Pretty sure it's just her strongest attack
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Scales to people who are stronger than Tatara overall because Tatara tanked that attack. So people who scale are:Schnee One said:
- Stella
- Nene (for obvious reasons)
- Naseem
- Possibly Fu Xiaoli
- Or Gaule
- Top 4 (edel and the 3 ppl who don't have a profile)
These are the people who have a profile or that have a planned profile (meaning naseem and or gaule).
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Like I said Donttalk would be a good place to start
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Ok i asked him to evaluate the calc.
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Agreed with mostly everything, but a few reservations:
Forgot to comment on the lifting strength; I agree with that but it shouldn't scale to just anyone since Stella pretty much couldn't move Xiaoli until she started to awaken. I'm not sure if all top tiers should scale to Stella's physicality except the particularly strong people like Iris, since they wouldn't necessarily have the same physical prowess.
Going by the spoilers, Astral Force shouldn't scale to anyone. It's a suicidal move and Tatara didn't really tank it as well. She was rekt as much as she could possibly be without Misora killing her off; she lost more than half of her body and face, digestive system, etc. The only reason she didn't die immediately was because of some special drug that lessened the shock from the damage iirc.
Forgot to comment on the lifting strength; I agree with that but it shouldn't scale to just anyone since Stella pretty much couldn't move Xiaoli until she started to awaken. I'm not sure if all top tiers should scale to Stella's physicality except the particularly strong people like Iris, since they wouldn't necessarily have the same physical prowess.
Going by the spoilers, Astral Force shouldn't scale to anyone. It's a suicidal move and Tatara didn't really tank it as well. She was rekt as much as she could possibly be without Misora killing her off; she lost more than half of her body and face, digestive system, etc. The only reason she didn't die immediately was because of some special drug that lessened the shock from the damage iirc.
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For the Lifting Strength, yeah, obvious thing is obvious.
About Astral Force it would scale to people who are massively above Tatara. Tatara did tank it:
Tatara has collapsed on the rim of the crater with her whole body heavily damaged. But she didn't die from shock probably due to pain relief effects of 'Angel Dust'.
Angel Dust only protected her from "mental death" (a lot of shock will kill a person, Konosuba would be a good example of what im talking about), so she basically felt no pain, but it didn't increase her durability. Tatara tanked it nonetheless.
There is also another thing to keep in mind, Ein was so strong she could literally break through the reflect.
About Astral Force it would scale to people who are massively above Tatara. Tatara did tank it:
Tatara has collapsed on the rim of the crater with her whole body heavily damaged. But she didn't die from shock probably due to pain relief effects of 'Angel Dust'.
Angel Dust only protected her from "mental death" (a lot of shock will kill a person, Konosuba would be a good example of what im talking about), so she basically felt no pain, but it didn't increase her durability. Tatara tanked it nonetheless.
There is also another thing to keep in mind, Ein was so strong she could literally break through the reflect.
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She barely survived it from the looks of it.
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Yes but still did. So while it doesn't scale to everyone and their grandmothers. It would scale to the top tier people. It would scale to the people who are obviously superior in physical prowess.Schnee One said:
So the people i mentioned above, with a maybe exception to Or Gaule.
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Ein overpowered only the normal Total Reflect. Astral Force destroyed her Yggdrasil Abyss without any issue, and she didn't even know about the attack.
About Tatara, she didn't tank Astral Force. It's shown in more detail around the conclusion of V15. I could check again to make sure, since I'm not sure if you've gotten around to that part.
As the quote says, Angel Dust dulls pain which is precisely the reason she didn't die immediately from the immense damage after activating Astral Force.
About Tatara, she didn't tank Astral Force. It's shown in more detail around the conclusion of V15. I could check again to make sure, since I'm not sure if you've gotten around to that part.
As the quote says, Angel Dust dulls pain which is precisely the reason she didn't die immediately from the immense damage after activating Astral Force.
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Lessening pain doesn't mean lessening the damage. If you have Angel Dust and i stab you, you won't feel pain but you will still take damage.
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Hmm, maybe I'm misunderstanding something here; I thought the proposal was that Tatara could scale since she didn't feel any physical pain from the attack. So my point was that Angel Dust dulled the pain she should have felt from the attack.
Here's the part from V15:
Johann is somewhat okay since Lunaeyes is by his side. Nene also has gotten her arm back thanks to the League of Mage-Knight Nations having enough stocks of somatic cells in their cell bank for a KOK A-League player to use. But Tatara lost half of her face, one arm and half of her digestive system with her lower half of her body completely destroyed. The stimulant Tatara took prevented her dying from shock of pain and her brain has been cured from the side effects of the stimulant. However, her body is too damaged to be cured by "Capsule" and her lost body parts can't be repaired.
Here's the part from V15:
Johann is somewhat okay since Lunaeyes is by his side. Nene also has gotten her arm back thanks to the League of Mage-Knight Nations having enough stocks of somatic cells in their cell bank for a KOK A-League player to use. But Tatara lost half of her face, one arm and half of her digestive system with her lower half of her body completely destroyed. The stimulant Tatara took prevented her dying from shock of pain and her brain has been cured from the side effects of the stimulant. However, her body is too damaged to be cured by "Capsule" and her lost body parts can't be repaired.
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Agree with the soul based fear hax, and the limited soul manip by making a weapon from the very soul, but not about it being combat applicable.
Due to DontTalk's suggestions and comments, something like "Far Higher with Star Hammer" seems better to me.
Due to DontTalk's suggestions and comments, something like "Far Higher with Star Hammer" seems better to me.
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@bff
Yes it damaged her a lot she could still tank it, pain has nothing to do with the damage it caused. The top tiers would still obviously scale from that. Which makes the top 4 sure along with stella and Nene. The rest we can probably discuss.
Yes it damaged her a lot she could still tank it, pain has nothing to do with the damage it caused. The top tiers would still obviously scale from that. Which makes the top 4 sure along with stella and Nene. The rest we can probably discuss.
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Isn't 0.1% the most plausible lowball for the calc?
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It's the last lowball. It can't go below that.Burning Full Fingers said:
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DontTalk seems to think any percentage, low or small, would be arbitrary due to the seeming lack of context. But asking him to make sure doesn't hurt.
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@Earl
I'd have to disagree with anyone scaling to it in any capacity. Losing half of your body, digestive system, face and limbs is not what I'd call "tanking". It's "surviving" and even that is due to external factors. Ein w/ Yggdrasil Abyss is her superior and she was insta-killed from the attack. I'm pretty sure we don't scale people to attacks if they suffer that much damage.
It's similar to saying we should scale Ao from Naruto to the Juubi cause he barely survived a Bijuudama and then proceed to scale Kage from him.
I don't see how this scales, but let's see what others think.
I'd have to disagree with anyone scaling to it in any capacity. Losing half of your body, digestive system, face and limbs is not what I'd call "tanking". It's "surviving" and even that is due to external factors. Ein w/ Yggdrasil Abyss is her superior and she was insta-killed from the attack. I'm pretty sure we don't scale people to attacks if they suffer that much damage.
It's similar to saying we should scale Ao from Naruto to the Juubi cause he barely survived a Bijuudama and then proceed to scale Kage from him.
I don't see how this scales, but let's see what others think.
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That's why we're not taking any percentage. And having the actual calc and even assuming a lowball just to be sure.
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Others would scale based on how much damage they can deal to her. So you're saying none of the others can kill tatara by saying none of them can outdo the feat.
That attack couldn't kill tatara, other ppl can though, with ap.
That attack couldn't kill tatara, other ppl can though, with ap.
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Nah, that's not it. Tatara specifically only survived because of certain factors, she didn't tank it at all. The attack is strong enough to kill her, she was missing a huge portion of her body and the text even mentions that she stayed alive with sheer mental strength because she didn't want Stella to prepare a burial for her as it would be shameful.
There's also no logical explanation for a superior character like Yggdrasil Abyss Ein getting insta-killed while Tatara didn't suffer the same fate (although even this is explained). There is just nothing to scale from here in my opinion.
There's also no logical explanation for a superior character like Yggdrasil Abyss Ein getting insta-killed while Tatara didn't suffer the same fate (although even this is explained). There is just nothing to scale from here in my opinion.
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It didn't kill her that's why she could stay alive with mental strength. No amount of mental strength will help you against what actually kills you.
Abou Yggdrasil Ein, then it's just that her Durability is lower than Tatara's. There are things like Volume 9 Ikki tanking a blow from Stella's full power punch in Dragon Spirit and actually suffering less damage than when Stella took the same hit (from Madoka). So those kinds of things aren't exactly new in rakudai.
Abou Yggdrasil Ein, then it's just that her Durability is lower than Tatara's. There are things like Volume 9 Ikki tanking a blow from Stella's full power punch in Dragon Spirit and actually suffering less damage than when Stella took the same hit (from Madoka). So those kinds of things aren't exactly new in rakudai.
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Well yeah, that's just an "excuse" for the author to keep Tatara alive due to her connection with Stella. Tatara is obviously not an immortal, so there's no way she could survive that kind of damage without other factors coming into play, and those factors were already mentioned. I still don't see any legit scaling in this; as I said, no one would say Ao scales to a Bijuudama from the Juubi despite his situation being similar to Tatara's. There's just no way to scale a person to an attack that debilitates them as much as this. The technique is called "suicidal" for a good reason.
I mean, that's just Ikki being Ikki lol. I would assume Ein was more durable since she used all of her magic to change into a thicc tree and showed superiority all around, but eh.
I mean, that's just Ikki being Ikki lol. I would assume Ein was more durable since she used all of her magic to change into a thicc tree and showed superiority all around, but eh.
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Ok so:
1. The fact that she wasn't completely vaporized by such an attack it means that it is at least of that scale. Do you even know what would happen if a Low 7-C took a 5-B blow point blank? Cus yeah, some skin ripped off and a limb cut off doesn't even begin to describe it. And let's not forget Stella, while she didn't lose any limbs almost lost consciousness with severe organ damage and bloodloss from tanking "her own attack". A low 7-C tanking a 5-B attack ain't escaping with the described amount of damage.
2. Ikki being Ikki yes, but still, Stella showed superiority all around yet she wasn't able to stand after tanking her own blow and would have fallen unconscious from severe bloodloss (extreme case force forfeit due to being unable to continue fighting) and was only ok after all of that because of her regen. Yet Ikki who was inferior in literally every single thing besides speed and skill. Tanked that same blow, but the most it did is a bit of organ damage and just unconsciosuness from pain. Completely outdid the durability feat of a seemigly superior oppnent. Just like our case with Tatara.
3. The technique is called suicidal cus if she's not treated she will eventually die because of bloodloss and things like that, not to mention she's not in a condition to fight after that. Similar to Ikki's Ittou Rasetsu, it's a 1 time thing, if it's done that's it, there is no more fight after that (though Tatara has way more severe consequences).
4. Can you even use "thicc" for trees? xD
1. The fact that she wasn't completely vaporized by such an attack it means that it is at least of that scale. Do you even know what would happen if a Low 7-C took a 5-B blow point blank? Cus yeah, some skin ripped off and a limb cut off doesn't even begin to describe it. And let's not forget Stella, while she didn't lose any limbs almost lost consciousness with severe organ damage and bloodloss from tanking "her own attack". A low 7-C tanking a 5-B attack ain't escaping with the described amount of damage.
2. Ikki being Ikki yes, but still, Stella showed superiority all around yet she wasn't able to stand after tanking her own blow and would have fallen unconscious from severe bloodloss (extreme case force forfeit due to being unable to continue fighting) and was only ok after all of that because of her regen. Yet Ikki who was inferior in literally every single thing besides speed and skill. Tanked that same blow, but the most it did is a bit of organ damage and just unconsciosuness from pain. Completely outdid the durability feat of a seemigly superior oppnent. Just like our case with Tatara.
3. The technique is called suicidal cus if she's not treated she will eventually die because of bloodloss and things like that, not to mention she's not in a condition to fight after that. Similar to Ikki's Ittou Rasetsu, it's a 1 time thing, if it's done that's it, there is no more fight after that (though Tatara has way more severe consequences).
4. Can you even use "thicc" for trees? xD
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I believe in the war a couple of years back; don't remember if she used the hax on all of them but a few of them did mention her "gravitational pull", which is the Desperado hax. Chapters have been taken down, so wait for Earl I guess.
@Earl
(Well, we should get others to reply on this). Last reply on this particular issue, since it's been a back-and-forth:
It doesn't really matter, a character doesn't have to be vaporised for it to be abundantly clear that they shouldn't scale. You wouldn't scale "mobs" (fodder characters) to strong characters cause they don't get vaped instantly, right? It's not a negligible amount of damage or even your average serious injury; she lost half of her body, digestive system, face and limbs. There's honestly nothing to scale from that, it's not durability in any sense. It's a miraculous survival due to external factors.
If Stella got severe organ damage and almost lost consciousness from her own attack, then yeah, she shouldn't scale to that particular attack as she's clearly not durable enough to tank it. Her innards were literally spilling out... At some point, it stops being durability and is just sheer endurance. That kind of damage would have killed her w/o the regen, which is my point - it's not durability at that level of damage.
In Ikki's case, it's due to his skill. IIRC, they even mentioned how his defense was no different from an average person due to being a F-Rank yet he repeatedly 'tanked' the force of Iris' attacks. He's definitely not more durable than Stella.
It's pretty clear that suicidal means she was supposed to die from the attack, which is proven by what happened to her. She was even talking as if she'd prepared for herself to be killed after using it.
It was a pretty huge tree
@Earl
(Well, we should get others to reply on this). Last reply on this particular issue, since it's been a back-and-forth:
It doesn't really matter, a character doesn't have to be vaporised for it to be abundantly clear that they shouldn't scale. You wouldn't scale "mobs" (fodder characters) to strong characters cause they don't get vaped instantly, right? It's not a negligible amount of damage or even your average serious injury; she lost half of her body, digestive system, face and limbs. There's honestly nothing to scale from that, it's not durability in any sense. It's a miraculous survival due to external factors.
If Stella got severe organ damage and almost lost consciousness from her own attack, then yeah, she shouldn't scale to that particular attack as she's clearly not durable enough to tank it. Her innards were literally spilling out... At some point, it stops being durability and is just sheer endurance. That kind of damage would have killed her w/o the regen, which is my point - it's not durability at that level of damage.
In Ikki's case, it's due to his skill. IIRC, they even mentioned how his defense was no different from an average person due to being a F-Rank yet he repeatedly 'tanked' the force of Iris' attacks. He's definitely not more durable than Stella.
It's pretty clear that suicidal means she was supposed to die from the attack, which is proven by what happened to her. She was even talking as if she'd prepared for herself to be killed after using it.
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The only way you would scale to an attack that nearly killed you is if you had no external means detached entirely from AP that let you survive ans the attack in question wasn't horribly casual, in which case back scaling is entirely possible.
This is not the case, not one bit. People don't just get vaped because of a massive AP difference, that ain't a thing. But she obviously can't even begin to have a microscopic chance of surviving this thing on her own. How do you scale to that?
This is not the case, not one bit. People don't just get vaped because of a massive AP difference, that ain't a thing. But she obviously can't even begin to have a microscopic chance of surviving this thing on her own. How do you scale to that?
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@sir
She doesn't have any other means by which she survived. She survived the thing on her own, the thing she took were pain killers. You don't give ppl painkillers and tell them "now go you can tank little boy", because painkillers don't give durability.
She doesn't have any other means by which she survived. She survived the thing on her own, the thing she took were pain killers. You don't give ppl painkillers and tell them "now go you can tank little boy", because painkillers don't give durability.
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https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3630849?useskin=oasis It comes from this. Desperado's fearhax seems to be capable of affecting the souls. I agree with GLFH22 now that I think about it. It's just fearhax not soulhax.
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Oh I misread it
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If she survived the thing on her own, then that's something entirely different, because I don't see anyone surviving with that much damage to their body unless they don't care about bodily functions.
In which case they still scale to literally nothing, if the only reason they survived is because damage like that won't kill them. They still took too much damage to scale to it in any way, shape or form.
In which case they still scale to literally nothing, if the only reason they survived is because damage like that won't kill them. They still took too much damage to scale to it in any way, shape or form.
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