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- #81
Damage like that. Just limb loss. People massively superior would be capable of such a feat.
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Rakudai AP and Soul CRT
- Thread starter Firephoenixearl
- Start date
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Does Ittou Shura Ikki backscale from Edelweiss at all?
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Basically, there's a character called Tatara with a technique which can deflect the Earth's movement and was calced at Low 5-B to 5-B.Antvasima said:
Earl is of the opinion that it should scale to her durability since she managed to survive the attack, which would in turn apply to the god tiers of the verse as they'd be capable of also considerably damaging her.
My opinion is that it shouldn't count as durability - the technique is called suicidal, demonstrated by how she lost half of her body, face, digestive system and limbs, and only survived due to external factors. Meanwhile, a likely superior character was instantly killed by the attack and Tatara herself was also prepared to die. All in all, I don't see any reason for her durability to scale as she was heavily debilitated and lost most of her body; one doesn't have to be vaporised by a massively superior attack for us to determine that scaling isn't valid.
So far, I and Lancelot disagree with her durability scaling. We're waiting for others to give their opinions so we can move forward.
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@BFF As for that you should not scale it to durability. Rimuru Tempest (Web Novel) has a suicide smurf attack which is Low 2-C in his 3rd and 4th key but we do not scale it from his AP
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Does anyone harm her?
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@BFF
That "Due to external factors" is heavily misleading. The externals factors didn't help with durability, they helped with pain. It's like saying "A normal human cannot scale because he needs painkillers to take a tooth off".
And the damage she took is as i said is meaningless as it wouldn't scale to characters who are comparable to her, but massively superior. The top 5 can kill her off really easily, same for causing that much damage to her body. By saying that "none can scale" you're saying that "no one in the verse can deal that much damage to Tatara" which as you know is rather false.
That "Due to external factors" is heavily misleading. The externals factors didn't help with durability, they helped with pain. It's like saying "A normal human cannot scale because he needs painkillers to take a tooth off".
And the damage she took is as i said is meaningless as it wouldn't scale to characters who are comparable to her, but massively superior. The top 5 can kill her off really easily, same for causing that much damage to her body. By saying that "none can scale" you're saying that "no one in the verse can deal that much damage to Tatara" which as you know is rather false.
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Ok so after i discussed it with Burning Full Fingers, this whole "argument" boils down to opinion. What we concluded is that Yui Tatara's Device did not break from the attack. Now we have 2 sides here:
- The device not breaking is simply Plot Induced Stupidity or Plot Convenience, same for Tatara actually surviving the attack. ( 0 )
- The device did actually tank the attack considering the devices are constantly proven to be insanely durable and they are the medium form which Noble Arts are used and there has never been a case from where the device has failed to tank its own attack. (2: Ionsite, Professor)
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I obviously think Tatara surviving is PIS, but the Device not breaking seems legit, as they have always been shown to tank the power of Noble Arts.
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- #90
I see ok then so:
Device not breaking PIS: 0
Device not breaking Legit: 3
Device not breaking PIS: 0
Device not breaking Legit: 3
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Does that make them generally at least planet level in durability?
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- #92
If you have the same amount of magic yes.The God Of Procrastination said:
If you have less magic you cannot break them at all (as seen when Wallenstein couldn't cut Or Gaule's threads even though he could cut through literally everything else).
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I wonder what tier that goes up to.
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- #94
Im not sure.
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What are cases where a Device has been broken?
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- #96
I think only 3. But none from their own attack. It has never happened it has always been from attacks FAR superior to the user's magic.LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
- Ikki vs Touka. (Ittou Rasetsu completely dwarfs Touka in stats and magic)
- Ikki vs Edelweiss (Ikki vs Edelweiss and that was against Edelweiss strongest attack).
- Nasseem vs Nene (when Nassem got a HUGE boost through excessive awakening).
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I have the same opinion as Ion
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is there any other feat even close to 5-B ?
because the feat would be an outlier if there isn't
because the feat would be an outlier if there isn't
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The Highest I can think of besides this is Nene was stated to obliterate the country (Nene is a high tier and Yui isnt). It can be an outlier but their device is not your ordinary sword since it is a manifestation of their soul.
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If feat is outlier, devices surviving it is outlier too as characters have broken them
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- #101
Characters having broken them doesn't mean much as the durability only goes up as the story goes.
First key Ikki broke touka's sword.
But Stella couldn't break Ikki's in their clash during the SSSAF finals.
First key Ikki broke touka's sword.
But Stella couldn't break Ikki's in their clash during the SSSAF finals.
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- #102
I mean technically another feat that i calced was a case of a girl using the 6-B attacks of a 62kg, but with the weight of a mountain instead (mountain edelberg that's in the OP). That gives a 5-A result, but it has calc standard problems. Just putting it out there though. (Though if the scaling from Nene's hadou tensei becomes possible, then that calc will be good).Overlord775 said:
And i don't think cases like these can be outliers. Considering it's an ability specifically rather than just a normal punch causing a ton of damage. The ability is literally saying "i use the KE of the earth" by mechanics.
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1. That feat you mentioned is calc stacking, as it uses the feat of Stella to get an higher end.
2. No, since the characters survives it, it apparently scales to their durability, which cannot because is far above anything else ever shown in the serie, so it's outlier.
3. Also, "which deflected the power of the Earth's revolution movement." TBH, it could also be interpreted as deflecting only a portion of the Earth's revolution movement, like it could only be any low percetage
2. No, since the characters survives it, it apparently scales to their durability, which cannot because is far above anything else ever shown in the serie, so it's outlier.
3. Also, "which deflected the power of the Earth's revolution movement." TBH, it could also be interpreted as deflecting only a portion of the Earth's revolution movement, like it could only be any low percetage
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- #104
1. Yes which is why it doesn't work. If the scaling on Nene's hadou tensei becomes a tad clearer then it'll be legit. The thing is, 6-B isn't only via calcs in rakudai.
2. The characters survive what? And no it doesn't scale to durability, it's MUCH higher.
3. Her power is reflection, anyway everything is taken into account on this calc.
2. The characters survive what? And no it doesn't scale to durability, it's MUCH higher.
3. Her power is reflection, anyway everything is taken into account on this calc.
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Donttalk seems to have disagreed with the calc
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1. Explain
2. You said that the girl survived it so it should scale to her durability.
3. Which 1. Makes her reflecting the deflecting the rotating of the earth much more like Roshi blowing up the moon since it's not even the main focus of the ability and 2. 0.1 is an arbitrary amount, if we don't know exaclty how much she deflected it could be any amount
2. You said that the girl survived it so it should scale to her durability.
3. Which 1. Makes her reflecting the deflecting the rotating of the earth much more like Roshi blowing up the moon since it's not even the main focus of the ability and 2. 0.1 is an arbitrary amount, if we don't know exaclty how much she deflected it could be any amount
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He just seems to want some form of proof.Schnee One said:
@Overlord
1. Country destruction feat/statement. Not a calc, comes from Nene. People are starting to laugh at that attack, so if i find a way to scale from that it'll make the 5-A calc legit as it won't be calc stacking anymore.
2. She survived by the skin of her teeth. She was trashed by the attack, whereas the device wasn't even stated to have any form of damage on it, let alone break.
3. How is reflecting the KE of the earth not the main focus of the ability?
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1, IDK
2. A cannon doesn't break because it fired a shot, yet it wouldn't survive being hit by it, i feel like the same applies here.
3. The focus of her ability is reflecting stuff, her using it on the Earth is just an odd use of it
2. A cannon doesn't break because it fired a shot, yet it wouldn't survive being hit by it, i feel like the same applies here.
3. The focus of her ability is reflecting stuff, her using it on the Earth is just an odd use of it
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2. That's a false quivalency. This is a physical attack. If a sword doesn't break if it hits another sword then it won't be broken even if it gets hit by it. Newtons' 3rd law.
3. Or just odd wording in the summary. It is just a summary of the translation and i don't really see how deflecting derrives from reflecting.
Reflecto: Yui's ability as a Blazer. She is able to reflect all her opponent's attacks back at them and would prove dangerous against those with overwhelming power such as Stella Vermillio. Yui can also to reflect the damage she has received and even the power of other things, back to her opponent.
Her ability works by using fate btw.
3. Or just odd wording in the summary. It is just a summary of the translation and i don't really see how deflecting derrives from reflecting.
Reflecto: Yui's ability as a Blazer. She is able to reflect all her opponent's attacks back at them and would prove dangerous against those with overwhelming power such as Stella Vermillio. Yui can also to reflect the damage she has received and even the power of other things, back to her opponent.
Her ability works by using fate btw.
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2. A physical magical attack, mind you
also consider the fact that reflection of that kind wouldn't even work if Newtwon's third law was at working.
3. you used that one traduction with "deflect" in your blog tho
Does the writer get a boner in putting bullshit stuff in every ability ?
also consider the fact that reflection of that kind wouldn't even work if Newtwon's third law was at working.
3. you used that one traduction with "deflect" in your blog tho
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No, he doesn't want proof, he just disagrees with it. You even see him mention that is the same situation that didn't make him Calc Accelerator's similar feat, mainly that it using the full energy isn't made clear and that justifying any particular fraction to use really doesn't work. Damage seems likewise doubtful and DMUA is very skeptical that literally nothing happens to the Earth when a fraction of the full yield would ping pong planet Earth out of orbit.
"Just limb loss", while failing to mention her entire lower half and half her intestines are missing. And that it killed someone completely superior to her. If you call this tanking and believe she can scale from this, you have a very twisted definition what tanking means.
"Just limb loss", while failing to mention her entire lower half and half her intestines are missing. And that it killed someone completely superior to her. If you call this tanking and believe she can scale from this, you have a very twisted definition what tanking means.
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- #112
He disagrees because he finds no reason to believe it actually reflects it all. If i make the argument then he will be fine with it. Also we kind of stopped trying on the damage done to Yui and took her device which tanked the explosion instead.
@Overlord
2. The difference exactly?
Not really, otherwise only Ein would have gotten that damage, not Yui too.
3. I used the summary there too. There are no translations of that moment yet, which is why we're not using exact wording to give abilities like we did before.
@Overlord
2. The difference exactly?
Not really, otherwise only Ein would have gotten that damage, not Yui too.
3. I used the summary there too. There are no translations of that moment yet, which is why we're not using exact wording to give abilities like we did before.
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If he agrees with the argument, more like.
Which still doesn't deal with every other single issue. You do NOT tank an attack that you only survive because of a drug and that destroyed your body. And no, your body doesn't need to vaporize into a cloud of red vapor or be made into chunks to not scale to an attack.
Which still doesn't deal with every other single issue. You do NOT tank an attack that you only survive because of a drug and that destroyed your body. And no, your body doesn't need to vaporize into a cloud of red vapor or be made into chunks to not scale to an attack.
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- #114
That's what i meant.
>Survive because of a drug.
Yes cus the pain would have killed you, not the damage. Kind of went over this.
>Doesn't need to vaporize into a cloud
Fair enough, it was for people who could do as much damage as the explosion did to Yui.
Anyway we stopped the Yui argument and went over to the device having tanked the attack.
>Survive because of a drug.
Yes cus the pain would have killed you, not the damage. Kind of went over this.
>Doesn't need to vaporize into a cloud
Fair enough, it was for people who could do as much damage as the explosion did to Yui.
Anyway we stopped the Yui argument and went over to the device having tanked the attack.
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Is just 0.1% really still unusable? Now I wonder what 0.0001% would yield, lol. But we should ask DT to reply here or in the blog.
There's indeed not a straight statement of the Device being destroyed, though at the same time, everything in the area was described to be destroyed except for Tatara's body which was left at the edge of the crater. I just find it hard to believe there wouldn't be at least a brief statement for something as important as a Device being durable enough to tank a planetary attack, especially since Naseem later destroyed Nene's with Dead End Blow.
But you could see it either way, so I'm fine with whatever the majority decides upon. I'm just naturally really conservative on things like this.
and they are the medium form which Noble Arts are used and there has never been a case from where the device has failed to tank its own attack.
To be fair, it's more like Tatara is borrowing the energy of the planet to use Astral Force rather than entirely using her own power like Stella using Katharterio Salamandra for example.
So I wouldn't say the logic is completely accurate to use for Noble Arts like Astral Force and Hadou Tensei.
Just to clarify, I can see where Earl is coming from but I'm just highly skeptical because the scene is open to interpretation and we're talking about something as high as Tier 5.Firephoenixearl said:
There's indeed not a straight statement of the Device being destroyed, though at the same time, everything in the area was described to be destroyed except for Tatara's body which was left at the edge of the crater. I just find it hard to believe there wouldn't be at least a brief statement for something as important as a Device being durable enough to tank a planetary attack, especially since Naseem later destroyed Nene's with Dead End Blow.
But you could see it either way, so I'm fine with whatever the majority decides upon. I'm just naturally really conservative on things like this.
and they are the medium form which Noble Arts are used and there has never been a case from where the device has failed to tank its own attack.
To be fair, it's more like Tatara is borrowing the energy of the planet to use Astral Force rather than entirely using her own power like Stella using Katharterio Salamandra for example.
So I wouldn't say the logic is completely accurate to use for Noble Arts like Astral Force and Hadou Tensei.
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Except it killed someone superior to her, and half your body missing is not something you "survive".
Considering people that aren't on that level have destroyed other people devices... No, every device doesn't scale to that. This is more egregious because of Ikki destroying Touka's device - and no, by the description of the technique from the series and the one you've given, Rasetsu doesn't have "more magical power". Ikki's magical amount doesn't increase from its paltry amount, or it shouldn't at least, because of a technique that is literally all about boosting his physical stats.
Considering people that aren't on that level have destroyed other people devices... No, every device doesn't scale to that. This is more egregious because of Ikki destroying Touka's device - and no, by the description of the technique from the series and the one you've given, Rasetsu doesn't have "more magical power". Ikki's magical amount doesn't increase from its paltry amount, or it shouldn't at least, because of a technique that is literally all about boosting his physical stats.
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I think it's because the earth has no magic capacity.
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- #118
@Sir
Wrong, Ikki's noble art specfically makes him temporarily "have more magic". It's literally the same amount of magic he has in 1 day, reduced to 1 second. When Stella first fought Ittou Shura she stated the same thing "how can your magic increase like that?". His current amount increases, just not his total amount.
And it's a completely void point to bring up Ikki vs Touka, when Wallenstein cut every mountain in the area with a casual Durability Negation swing, yet he couldn't cut Orleaus' threads. Or cases like Stella cutting in half a 9km tall mountain in a single swing, yet the device did not break. More cases? Nasseem took a 6-B meteor and his device didn't break. Ikki tanked Stella's Dragon Spirit attacks easily, his device didn't break.
Wrong, Ikki's noble art specfically makes him temporarily "have more magic". It's literally the same amount of magic he has in 1 day, reduced to 1 second. When Stella first fought Ittou Shura she stated the same thing "how can your magic increase like that?". His current amount increases, just not his total amount.
And it's a completely void point to bring up Ikki vs Touka, when Wallenstein cut every mountain in the area with a casual Durability Negation swing, yet he couldn't cut Orleaus' threads. Or cases like Stella cutting in half a 9km tall mountain in a single swing, yet the device did not break. More cases? Nasseem took a 6-B meteor and his device didn't break. Ikki tanked Stella's Dragon Spirit attacks easily, his device didn't break.
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Why are people acting as if we're trying to upgrade Yui's durability? We already said that's either an outlier or outright not even counting as "tanking the attack" since she almost died. The Devices have always shown dura way above their holders, so that's why we say her Device's dura could perfectly scale.
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