Puella Magi Verse God-Tier Upgrades

[Lormac_CC]

Ugo seeing the multiverse as fiction helped support this claim

 

[Delta333]

Repeating the same things won't lead you anywhere.

I already answered and explained these points, and you didn't give anything more as of now.

timeline is 4-D so why perceiving 4-D as fiction is not enough?since when you explained that and magi case?since when you explained existing in higher plane that outside universe is not outside universe?

 

[Delta333]

If you want to say timeline(content inside disc)is 3-D instead of 4-D then I guess many 2-A characters(include 2-A pmmm currently)will be downgraded to high 3-A

 

[manu_zarri]

Seeing a timeline/4D structure as a fiction is enough for Low 1-C

 

[Planck69]

I mean, if it can be proven that she sees the 4-dimensional universes as the contents of the disc as opposed to the discs themselves, then that's a pretty fine justification for Low 1-C I'd think.

 

[Delta333]

Of course that is enough,tiering system clearly says that

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Existing outside of it isnt quite enough either, and seeing it as fiction has some baring but need a more elaborate example. Like does she perceive the entire 2-A sized multiverse as a book they can flip and alter?

She isn't just existing outside of space-time. Her existence stated to be transcended into higher plane. The kind of transcendence where she treats bunches of Low 2-C structures as nothing more than a collection of records, Where it can be played frame by frame, like someone reading at a book word by word.

Our current standard quite says this fills the one of the requirement to be Low 1-C.

 

[Delta333]

Edward and Strym also have already explained why low 1-C is acceptable in the first page then for some reasons people who disagree with this upgrade ignore them

 

[Schnee_One]

Edward and Strym also have already explained why low 1-C is acceptable in the first page then for some reasons people who disagree with this upgrade ignore them

Because that's not how this works.

Low 1C revisions are incredibly specific for a reason, how just from a simple description of something isn't enough or how specific it requires.

And no offense to Edward and Strym, but they aren't staff, who are required to advance such an incredibly big revision (In terms of tiering obv.)

Saying that people are ignoring them because they disagree makes your argument less valid, wait for others to give their input

 

[manu_zarri]

btw i agree with the CRT

since noobody answered it was a contradiction being the multiverse and trascending it

 

[Schnee_One]

Still waiting for some staff response, still neutral for now

 

[QuasiYuri]

btw i agree with the CRT

since noobody answered it was a contradiction being the multiverse and trascending it

It was answered. Despite not even having to be.
If you are litteraly stated to be part of something, you aren't above it.

 

[Planck69]

It was answered. Despite not even having to be.
If you are litteraly stated to be part of something, you aren't above it.

Eh, not necessarily. You can be both a part of something and transcend it. As an example, Yog-Sothoth is both coterminous with space-time and transcendent of it. An extreme example yes but it should get the point across.

Whether they actually transcend it or not is a different story.

 

[manu_zarri]

It was answered. Despite not even having to be.
If you are litteraly stated to be part of something, you aren't above it.

they answered before i guess. since i just did Ctrl+F and ye.

let me go to check
(it was just told me, that there are characthers that are a structure and trascends that structure on vsbw)

 

[QuasiYuri]

Eh, not necessarily. You can be both a part of something and transcend it. As an example, Yog-Sothoth is both coterminous with space-time and transcendent of it. An extreme example yes but it should get the point across.

It's more everything being part of Yog than the opposite tho. But Isee what you mean.

 

[Planck69]

Well, like I said before, it comes down to whether or not the contents of the records are the 4-dimensional universe. If they are then Madoka being Low 1-C is pretty legitimate. If the discs are the 4-dimensional universe then this is just a very high-end Tier 2 feat.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

It was answered. Despite not even having to be.
If you are litteraly stated to be part of something, you aren't above it.

Pretty sure I already pointed it out that Madoka isn't part of the Multiverse and higher plane, but they are literally becoming part of hers.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Pretty sure I already pointed it out that Madoka isn't part of the Multiverse and higher plane, but they are part of her.

And I pointed out the opposite and how it just meant she just became a part.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Well, like I said before, it comes down to whether or not the contents of the records are the 4-dimensional universe. If they are then Madoka being Low 1-C is pretty legitimate. If the discs are the 4-dimensional universe then this is just a very high-end Tier 2 feat.

The discs themselves are the timelines, so the discs are the 4-D.
Their contents are what happens in the 3 dimensional world.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

And I pointed out the opposite and how it just meant she just became a part.

Do you even understand the deal behind Madoka's ascensions?

She evolved into higher plane, but due to the nature of her Law, she literally destroyed said higher plane along with the Multiverse due they don't fit with her new "Law". Then she creates another Multiverse along with the higher plane that fits to her new Law to replace ones that she destroyed.

Her creation is becoming parts of her, not the other way around.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Also she's flat out said to be assimilated in it + "going to a higher plane" just referring to 4D or being a fundamental law of the Multiverse is like, way more coherent with the story than outright transcending it.

Madoka ascending to a higher plane of existence being a 4-D feat doesn't seem to make much sense, given how, immediately after this statement, she states that she can see every universe that exists, existed, or will ever exist. Past and future are themselves just different points lined up along a single time axis, so an existence that encompasses multiple of those across a larger flow of time would have to be of a higher temporal dimension, or something functionally akin to one, instead of being constrained to 4-dimensional space.

Normally, you could, of course, dismiss that as really good clairvoyance, but given the context of Madoka ascending to a higher plane + The fact that the profile itself seems to accept that her Omnipresence already encompasses all of these past and future timelines, using it as evidence for Low 1-C seems fine to me.

And, for the record: Everyone claiming that the difference between Low 1-C and 2-A doesn't need to be uncountably infinite up there is wrong. It's just that we equate transcendence feats (When framed as a matter of ontological superiority, of course) to such a difference, and we always did, as a matter of fact.

 

[Schnee_One]

@Ultima_Reality Thanks for your help

I agree with Low 1C as well

 

[QuasiYuri]

Madoka ascending to a higher plane of existence being a 4-D feat doesn't seem to make much sense, given how, immediately after this statement, she states that she can see every universe that exists, existed, or will ever exist. Past and future are themselves just different points lined up along a single time axis, so an existence that encompasses multiple of those would have to be a higher temporal dimension, or something functionally akin to one, instead of being constrained to 4-dimensional space.

Normally, you could, of course, dismiss that as really good clairvoyance, but given the context of Madoka ascending to a higher plane + The fact that the profile itself seems to accept that her Omnipresence already encompasses all of these past and future timelines, using it as evidence for Low 1-C seems fine to me.

If you are the Multiverse itself or part of its fundamental stuff, being omnipresent in it and witnessing all of it is something you're supposed to be able to do tho.
Like, the omnipresence can explain it, and it still would go against the warning said in the same ep.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

And, for the record: Everyone claiming that the difference between Low 1-C and 2-A doesn't need to be uncountably infinite up there is wrong. It's just that we equate transcendence feats (When framed as a matter of ontological superiority, of course) to such a difference, and we always did, as a matter of fact.

Explain again....

 

[Ultima_Reality]

If you are the Multiverse itself or part of its fundamental stuff, being omnipresent in it and witnessing all of it is something you're supposed to be able to do tho.

Being omnipresent across a fixed, static set of infinite universes would suffice, sure, but encompassing a larger form of time that applies to this whole collection and dictates how timelines themselves change is something else entirely. It's the same as the difference between being omnipresent across the spatial part of the universe in a single point in time and being omnipresent throughout every point in spacetime.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Explain again....

It means you don’t need a specific statement about a transcendent realm being infinitely superior to a 4D construct for it to be 5D when the context surrounding it would already imply this is the case.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It means you don’t need a specific statement about a transcendent realm being infinitely superior to a 4D construct for it to be 5D when the context surrounding it would already imply this is the case.

Okay...got it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Being omnipresent across a fixed, static set of infinite universes would suffice, sure, but encompassing a larger form of time that applies to this whole collection and dictates how timelines themselves change is something else entirely. It's the same as the difference between being omnipresent across the spatial part of the universe in a single point in time and being omnipresent throughout every point in spacetime.

I can't really think of a living multiverse being only a static set, but I guess it's true that it is different.

Tho it would technically still be the 4D time that defines the past-present-future of any timelines.
I mean, it's not that different from a living timeline seeing every point in time at once.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Snip

Thanks for the input Ultima

Now we can talk about the scaling, Goddess Madoka, Devil Homura, and Ultimate Kriemhild Gretchen obviously are scaled to this. But we still have this discussion whether or not Avatar of Calamity should scale to this.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Tho it would technically still be the 4D time that defines the past-present-future of any timelines.
I mean, it's not that different from a living timeline seeing every point in time at once.

Only the the past and future of individual universes. Some generalization of those two concepts that applies to a whole collection of timelines would imply a higher time axis by necessity. Borrowing from the "record" analogy: The former would only apply to the contents of the records (The 3-D part of the universe, in this case), but the latter would encompass the records themselves (The full spacetime continuum)

 

[Jinsye]

I still don't agree with the AoC scaling, it having UKG's curse isn't enough for me to fully believe it backscales without any actual proof that UKG's curse grants it that much power.

It should just remain 2-A

 

[Schnee_One]

I don't see why AoC scales for having a curse from the UKG, I would say keep it 2A

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

I still don't agree with the AoC scaling, it having UKG's curse isn't enough for me to fully believe it backscales without any actual proof that UKG's curse grants it that much power.

It should just remain 2-A

Having UKG curse isn't the only reason why I think AoC should get backscaled to this. It's that AoC was about to destroy the "World of Wraith", which I already explained that it refers to the entirety of Cosmology that Madoka created and not just the Multiverse.

 

[AKUTO123]

I agree with the 5D madoka

 

[Lormac_CC]

There was no conclusion reached on the World of Wraith being 5D.

 

[Delta333]

Having UKG curse isn't the only reason why I think AoC should get backscaled to this. It's that AoC was about to destroy the "World of Wraith", which I already explained that it refers to the entirety of Cosmology that Madoka created and not just the Multiverse.

5-D realm is outside world of wraiths,and I think I repeat countless times that world of wraiths being a part of Madoka doesn't scale to her level

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Having UKG curse isn't the only reason why I think AoC should get backscaled to this. It's that AoC was about to destroy the "World of Wraith", which I already explained that it refers to the entirety of Cosmology that Madoka created and not just the Multiverse.

This is where you are incorrect. Madoka herself is on a higher plane, not that there’s higher planes around each the World of Witches and World of Wraiths. Since the higher plane is where Madoka resides, it wouldn’t matter how many infinite multiverses you stack, it will never reach it as it is of an order of immeasurable magnitudes greater.

 

[Beast_Zero_Gudako]

Let's break it down like this. I hope you guys read it thoroughly cuz it was a pain to post this long post.

The existence of Higher Plane beyond Low 2-C structure​

---

This scans talks about the existence of "higher plane/space" beyond Low 2-C structure. I need to emphasize it that the statement was said by Kyubey/Incubator, one of the most reliable source in the series.

But at the time, we thought that it was just about Madoka conceptual status, which makes her still bound to it. So we don't accept about the existence of the "higher plane" due being too vague, even with Kyubey credibility.



However, this particular image confirmed the statement in the first scans above about the existence of "higher plane" beyond Low 2-C structure. The words She listen to the sounds from the countless records spinning before her quite blatantly shown about Madoka occupying the space beyond Low 2-C structure. So now, we know the first scans statement are true.

Now onto the "chronology" of the event in the PMMM.

Chronology of events​

---

Based on the scans above, the Cosmology of PMMM prior Madoka's ascension would be like this:



Per our Tiering System standard, this is enough for it to be Low 1-C cosmology. And I will emphasize it again that this is even before Madoka's ascension. As you can see, we refers this entire cosmology as "The World of Witches", basically the world before Madoka's ascension.

There is one this you guys need to know before I continue onto the next part, It's about Madoka's nature as conceptual being. For the context, this scene was taken within the Magia Record universe, a universe that is outside of Madoka's Law, so Witches still exists here even after Madoka's ascension.



Touka attempted to siphon a little bit of Goddess Madoka power since last time, that power had helped them in battle against Walpurgisnacht.



However, little little did she know that it was a terrible idea since Madoka's Law will destroys the Magia Record Universe and changed it to fit with her law.

So basically, everything that is within Madoka's influence will be destroyed and the new one with be born to replace it.

Which brings us to the part where Madoka made her wish.

This scans again talks about Madoka's acsension to higher plane. But as I explained above, her occupying the higher plane means that she destroying it as well and create a new one.

Which means that she destroyed The World of Witches, which is again, refers to the entire cosmology prior Madoka's ascension.

And the one that replace the World.of Witches is of course the World of Wraith, the cosmology post Madoka's ascension:



Now, both the World of Witch and Wraith are like two sides of a coin. Both have the same size, same contents, the only difference is that in the new "world", a concept of witch" do not exist.

And Madoka can be considered as the coin in this analogy.

Please read this again more thoroughly.

PMMM do have 5-D cosmology even before Madoka Ascension, everything BEFORE Madoka's ascension is called "The World of Witch", it's not just the Multiverse. When Madoka made her wish, everything that is from the old world is also destroyed and the new one were born.

It's like two sides of a coin where each of these side are the same size. And AoC was stated to be able o destroy one of the side at full power.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

And, for the record: Everyone claiming that the difference between Low 1-C and 2-A doesn't need to be uncountably infinite up there is wrong. It's just that we equate transcendence feats (When framed as a matter of ontological superiority, of course) to such a difference, and we always did, as a matter of fact.

Thanks for your clarification Ultima .

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Please read this again more thoroughly.

PMMM do have 5-D cosmology even before Madoka Ascension, everything BEFORE Madoka's ascension is called "The World of Witch", it's not just the Multiverse. When Madoka made her wish, everything that is from the old world is also destroyed and the new one were born.

It's like two sides of a coin where each of these side are the same size. And AoC was stated to be able o destroy one of the side at full power.

The World of Wraiths didn’t exist yet, so naturally the cosmology was just the World of Witches. Then after Madoka ascends to a higher plane to become a concept, she erases the World of Witches and creates the World of Wraiths adjacent to where it was.