Problem with freezing feats (and therefore storm feats as well)

[Jaakubb]

I got in a conversation with Matthew Schroeder and he suggested I make a thread, so here it is.

I still don't get why freezing feats are valid. It's true that nothing IMPLIES they AREN'T valid, but at the same time, nothing implies that it is false that freezing feats involve interdimensional aliens coming in and changing the temperature using some crazy quantum machine in a nanosecond, and then proceeding to teleport into some alternate dimension that we can't see. The reason why we don't accept crazy explanations like this or Last Thursdayism is because they make too many unnecessary assumptions, or in other words, they violate Occam's razor, which says we should make the least assumptions, and not accepting freezing feats the way we do (my position) obviously makes less assumptions.

The only reason I could possibly think of for our interpretation of freezing feats being valid is that you think fiction implies it? If so, could you provide examples? Doesn't need to be directly to an article or anything, I just wanna know some situations (Ex: This verse implies it because x, another verse implies it by y).

 

[Wokistan]

Gotta withdraw energy to freeze something, which is something you can measure in joules as an energy manip feat. You can take issue with scaling them to other things in terms of output, and with a lot of characters you could take a pretty strong position in doing so, but I don't see why that's something never able to apply.

Similar to my view on storms. Most of the time they shouldn't scale to other things, but it's not impossible for them to with the correct explanation.

This... also doesn't really make an argument for how using freezing feats violates occam's razor. It just sort of says it does.

 

[Jaakubb]

I remember DarkDragonMedeus saying that the character using a "universal energy source" to perform the feat justifies scaling other things to the energy that was removed from the object during a freezing feat. However, this doesn't solve the problem of it making too many unnecessary assumptions.

To clarify, scaling characters' other stats to the amount of energy removed during a freezing feat is based on the assumptions that it takes x energy input to move x energy during freezing AND that the character is able to output x energy in the first place (to clarify the second one, think about it like this. You can't assume that aliens stole your car keys without assuming that aliens exist). These are both unnecessary assumptions, which don't have to be made if we simply reject freezing feats. The only exception is if the verse somehow specifies that it takes x energy to move x energy for freezing/cooling, which I doubt has ever happened in any of fiction whatsoever.

 

[Dalesean027]

This is kinda what I saw in a thread discussing RWBY or rather the character Salem specifically as she is able to summon a storm however whether that goes to scale to her actual ap is the question as it is done by means of magic and while the storm could be calc'd it's not something that necessarily done through any actual logical physical means by the character to scale to them or their regular ap, if I at all made that make sense.

 

[Jaakubb]

Well, it seems like it would be better to go against our current use of freezing feats as a whole rather than criticize just one use of it. What did that thread conclude anyways?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

This is kinda what I saw in a thread discussing RWBY or rather the character Salem specifically as she is able to summon a storm however whether that goes to scale to her actual ap is the question as it is done by means of magic and while the storm could be calc'd it's not something that necessarily done through any actual logical physical means by the character to scale to them or their regular ap, if I at all made that make sense.

Its not from summoning a storm, her feat is the kinetic energy of moving the mass of a storm with the same magic that phyically amplifies hr strength

Plus she has higher physical feats than her storm feat

 

[Dalesean027]

Its not from summoning a storm, her feat is the kinetic energy of moving the mass of a storm with the same magic that phyically amplifies hr strength

Plus she has higher physical feats than her storm feat

ah okay thanks for the correction and clarification.

 

[Jaakubb]

Its not from summoning a storm, her feat is the kinetic energy of moving the mass of a storm with the same magic that phyically amplifies hr strength

Plus she has higher physical feats than her storm feat

Maybe she does have higher physical feats. Either way, there's no reason to believe that the storm was caused by her physically moving the mass of the storm. In real life, storms are chain reactions caused by temperature differences. We should assume that's how storms work in fiction by default.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Maybe she does have higher physical feats. Either way, there's no reason to believe that the storm was caused by her physically moving the mass of the storm. In real life, storms are chain reactions caused by temperature differences. We should assume that's how storms work in fiction by default.

Okay? Storms still have a measurable mass that can be used to calculate kinetic energy when the mass of the storm is moved

And yes actually it is shown on screen that she physically moved the storm with her magic

 

[Jaakubb]

OK but this kinetic energy doesn't scale to any of her other stats. That is, unless she really did physically push the storm with her magic. Would you mind linking to the clip of it?

 

[ElixirBlue]

Calc links to the clip for the storm feat are a bust

 

[Dalesean027]

that's okay, I don't think we should focus on one specific storm feat in this thread so it should be fine to move on from it in and refocus on freezing and storms as a whole.

 

[KLOL506]

Not this again.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean power scaling is fiction... And calcs are just the best we can do, I mean if freezing calcs aren't valid, all calcs aren't valid for any reason, which kinda makes all of this pointless

 

[Jaakubb]

This is not the best we can do however. Having unreasonable calcs is not "the best we can do." For the reasons I've explained, discarding these calcs is "the best we can do."

Just because freezing calcs are invalid doesn't mean all calcs are going to be proven to be invalid. This seems like some sort of slippery slope argument.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean a lot of this stuff isn't concrete and cannot be proven as fact, all power scaling and the act of using calculations itself is subjective

It's supposed to be fun and freezing calcs still fit our standards and we are still case by case with them by verse, I just don't think this is valid reasoning to throw out freezing calcs

 

[KLOL506]

I mean a lot of this stuff isn't concrete and cannot be proven as fact, all power scaling and the act of using calculations itself is subjective

It's supposed to be fun and freezing calcs still fit our standards and we are still case by case with them by verse, I just don't think this is valid reasoning to throw out freezing calcs

This in a nutshell. Even if there is evidence that the feats are separate from their physical stats which we already determine with a case-by-case basis, there is absolutely no reason to just axe freezing calcs and storm calcs by default. If they wield a certain amount of energy, it scales to whatever ability they used to create it, FULL STOP. Don't wanna scale it to their punches and physical dura? Fine, it's Environmental Destruction. But that's not gonna get removed. Ever. Because even that ED has its energy yield. But when it comes to Universal Power Sources, that's a different story altogether.

Also doing this for only freezing calcs and not other calcs is just double standards since the concept of calculations and powerscaling really doesn't fit with IRL standards as neither AP nor durability are linear in real life, unlike in fiction (Exceptions do exist but they are just that, exceptions). Doing it for one side and not doing it for the rest sets a bad precedent. That's all I have to say about this.

 

[Jaakubb]

Don't wanna scale it to their punches and physical dura? Fine, it's Environmental Destruction.

OK fine. I guess it wouldn't make sense to discard them altogether if you want to calc Environmental Destruction. I guess what I'm arguing for NOW is for cooling/freezing feats and storm feats (where they aren't necessarily physically pushing the air and clouds like with All Might) to be treated as NOTHING MORE THAN ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION. The problem is, this wiki doesn't consider it to just be Environmental Destruction.

For example, this feat, which is a storm calc where they aren't necessarily physically pushing the air and clouds (the mechanisms behind that bell aren't expanded upon iirc), is treated as if the energy moved in this feat scales to the physical stats of a lot of Dark Souls characters such as the Chosen Undead. Also, the stats for the characters of Killer Instinct are treated as if they scale to the energy moved in this freezing feat.

Should I go on individual profiles and sort of "hunt down" all of the storm feats (where they aren't necessarily physically pushing the air and clouds) and freezing feats that are treated as if they scale to physical stats? KLOL seemed to concede on that, and 4 other people liked his post.

 

[Jaakubb]

And this specific form of Environmental Destruction would NOT scale to punches or physical dura EVEN IF the character uses a "universal energy source."

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This is case by case and still treated as such on the site, if you feel that there is a storm or freezing feat that should not scale to a characters physical stats, then you can make a CRT for that specific verse

 

[Jaakubb]

Can you agree that use of a "universal energy source" is NOT sufficient reason to consider a freezing or storm feat as anything more than non-scaling Environmental Destruction?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Can you agree that use of a "universal energy source" is NOT sufficient reason to consider a freezing or storm feat as anything more than non-scaling Environmental Destruction?

Nope, I don’t agree at all, a universal energy system is a perfectly legit way to scale Freezing and Storm feats IMO, that’s how I have always seen it and will continue to see it

 

[Chariot190]

Nope, I don’t agree at all, a universal energy system is a perfectly legit way to scale Freezing and Storm feats IMO, that’s how I have always seen it and will continue to see it

What about heat and fire attack feats if they use the same "universal energy system". Heat and freezing feats are two sides of the same coin after all

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

What about heat and fire attack feats if they use the same "universal energy system". Heat and freezing feats are two sides of the same coin after all

If there is a universal energy system that exists as a tool to rank the power of characters within a story, then heat and fire attacks should be usable as well

 

[KLOL506]

And this specific form of Environmental Destruction would NOT scale to punches or physical dura EVEN IF the character uses a "universal energy source."

Wrong, universal energy sources are exactly the reason why they would utterly scale to the character's physical might.

 

[KLOL506]

OK fine. I guess it wouldn't make sense to discard them altogether if you want to calc Environmental Destruction. I guess what I'm arguing for NOW is for cooling/freezing feats and storm feats (where they aren't necessarily physically pushing the air and clouds like with All Might) to be treated as NOTHING MORE THAN ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION. The problem is, this wiki doesn't consider it to just be Environmental Destruction.

For example, this feat, which is a storm calc where they aren't necessarily physically pushing the air and clouds (the mechanisms behind that bell aren't expanded upon iirc), is treated as if the energy moved in this feat scales to the physical stats of a lot of Dark Souls characters such as the Chosen Undead. Also, the stats for the characters of Killer Instinct are treated as if they scale to the energy moved in this freezing feat.

Should I go on individual profiles and sort of "hunt down" all of the storm feats (where they aren't necessarily physically pushing the air and clouds) and freezing feats that are treated as if they scale to physical stats? KLOL seemed to concede on that, and 4 other people liked his post.

For the first paragraph, yes it absolutely does consider it to be just that. It's literally in the damn name. ENVIRONMENTAL DESTRUCTION. We literally don't use it for anything else other than feats where the storm feats or big boi winds are explicitly proven by evidence to be separate from the character's physicals.

For the second paragraph, utter bullshit. The DS characters clearly push away the clouds using sheer KE by ramming that bell hard. It's pure physical might, it is just like All Might's feat. Stuff like this, kinetic energy, has nothing to do with freezing or temperature feats in general and has no involvement in using their universal power source at all. It literally is a physical feat that is comparable to a punch or a kick, but in this case you're ramming a big-ass bell so hard that the energy from that ramming moves the clouds. CASE CLOSED.

As for freezing feats, we already keep them separate from physical stats depending on the case-by-case basis per fiction like DemonGodMitch said but like I already said, we are not axing freezing feats or storm feats outright. PERIOD. THEY ARE STILL USABLE AS A FORM OF AP IN THE CHARACTER'S ARSENAL. And if there is a universal energy source where characters use the same type of energy for all their attacks, be it physical or elemental, it absolutely scales in full because it would be even more assumptive to assume they just can't control that amount of energy and focus it onto their fists and legs.

This is my final stance on the matter- With a Universal Energy Source where characters use the same types of energy in all their attacks: WHETHER IT BE PUNCHES, ELEMENTAL ATTACKS, STORMS AND SO ON, they will all scale to the physicals. PERIOD. As for verses where it is shown with evidence that their physicals vary greatly from their elemental attacks and storm attacks, then those elemental attacks and storms will be classified differently as a separate AP statistic. But under no circumstances are we going to just outright axe freezing feats and storm feats from the equation altogether, ever. We've already been doing this sort of thing for a long time now on a case-by-case basis, and this is how it will stand.

 

[Jaakubb]

Freezing feats simply involve removing energy from an object, nothing more. How do you logically go from characters being able to do that and having a universal energy source to "the characters can use that amount of energy in attacks"? It does NOT take more assumptions to take the position that there's no reason to believe they can't do so.

 

[Jaakubb]

What about heat and fire attack feats if they use the same "universal energy system". Heat and freezing feats are two sides of the same coin after all

They're not. Heat involves adding energy, freezing does not.

 

[KLOL506]

Freezing feats simply involve removing energy from an object, nothing more. How do you logically go from characters being able to do that and having a universal energy source to "the characters can use that amount of energy in attacks"? It does NOT take more assumptions to take the position that there's no reason to believe they can't do so.

Yes it absolutely does, it assumes more than the fact that there is some weird weakness that the character can't move that removed energy somewhere else via the power source. It's not that hard to grasp.

 

[KLOL506]

They're not. Heat involves adding energy, freezing does not.

Except, you're still moving the removed energy away in a freezing scenario somewhere and focusing it into something else. It's basic common sense. Refer to Wokistan's comment to get a better explanation on this.

 

[FinePoint]

They're not. Heat involves adding energy, freezing does not.

Perhaps you should read up on thermodynamics. Energy is not created nor destroyed. Whether you're cooling something down or heating it up, you're just moving energy from one place to another. In that sense they're the same thing, and can be calculated accordingly.

We work with what we're given. If someone cools something down without heating something else up, we calculate it anyways because by your own logic it's wrong to assume the artist meant for the ability to be some magical or special case with no representation of the user's power, rather than the more obvious answer that they simply don't care about their art perfectly following the laws of physics.

The bottom line is, to cool down an object from 100C to 0C and to heat it up from 0C to 100C requires the same amount of energy, just in different directions, and we can calculate that energy, so why shouldn't we?

 

[Jaakubb]

I guess that is an assumption. I guess my position is "there is no proof that they do OR that they don't have the ability to put that energy into an attack" not "they do not have the ability to put that energy into an attack." So it's an "I don't know." We don't do upgrades because of "I don't know"'s.

 

[Jaakubb]

Perhaps you should read up on thermodynamics. Energy is not created nor destroyed. Whether you're cooling something down or heating it up, you're just moving energy from one place to another. In that sense they're the same thing, and can be calculated accordingly.

We work with what we're given. If someone cools something down without heating something else up, we calculate it anyways because by your own logic it's wrong to assume the artist meant for the ability to be some magical or special case with no representation of the user's power, rather than the more obvious answer that they simply don't care about their art perfectly following the laws of physics.

The bottom line is, to cool down an object from 100C to 0C and to heat it up from 0C to 100C requires the same amount of energy, just in different directions, and we can calculate that energy, so why shouldn't we?

KLOL is saying that it logically follows that if a character has a "universal energy source" and the same character can move x energy via cooling, then the character should logically be able to use that amount of energy in an attack.

 

[Jaakubb]

Also, freezing does not involve "focusing" the energy at all. You could actually argue that the laws of thermodynamics don't matter since we throw them away anyways when we calc creation feats with GBE instead of mass-energy calculations.

 

[FinePoint]

KLOL is saying that it logically follows that if a character has a "universal energy source" and the same character can move x energy via cooling, then the character should logically be able to use that amount of energy in an attack.

If everything they do is determined by one energy source, and in any manner that energy source lets them move X energy, then it does make sense that in general they can move X energy.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, freezing does not involve "focusing" the energy at all. You could actually argue that the laws of thermodynamics don't matter since we throw them away anyways when we calc creation feats with GBE instead of mass-energy calculations.

It still involves moving the energy away from something, that on its own counts.

 

[KLOL506]

I guess that is an assumption. I guess my position is "there is no proof that they do OR that they don't have the ability to put that energy into an attack" not "they do not have the ability to put that energy into an attack." So it's an "I don't know." We don't do upgrades because of "I don't know"'s.

Sorry but that's not how it works with universal energy sources, period. With universal energy sources, your elementals and physicals outright scale to each other due to using the same power source. There's absolutely no reason to assume that you can't use the same amount of that energy into your attacks which you also use for other elemental attacks or storms with such a power source.

And even if evidence is shown in the franchise that the energy yield of the ice attacks and/or storms is different from the character's physical punches and kicks, we simply write it as "X physically, Y with ice attacks" or in the case of storms, "X physically, Y Environmental Destruction", with "Y" in this case being the yield of the storm. Easy. There really is no point in saying otherwise.

AP by definition relies on just the energy yield in joules. What you do with that amount of joules literally does not matter. If it has an energy yield, it works. If there is solid evidence that said ice attacks or storm attacks are separate from one's physical attacks, good, keep the ice attack/storm attack as a separate statistic, but we are absolutely not going to axe either of them from qualifying for AP.

 

[Jaakubb]

They're not "using" the energy that's being moved in cooling feats though. They're "using" their magic/abilities, and "removing" the thermal energy. The thermal energy isn't part of any attack, it's just a side effect that barely affects anything since it's so spaced out.

Alternatively, it can even be argued that we already disregard the laws of thermodynamics anyways (such as using GBE instead of mass-energy conversion for creation feats).

 

[Jaakubb]

If everything they do is determined by one energy source, and in any manner that energy source lets them move X energy, then it does make sense that in general they can move X energy.

With freezing feats, the character is shown to be able to move the energy in x manner (removing from object). Does that mean they should be able to move the energy in ANY manner, INCLUDING y (take energy and put it in an attack) just because they have a universal energy source?

 

[KLOL506]

With freezing feats, the character is shown to be able to move the energy in x manner (removing from object). Does that mean they should be able to move the energy in ANY manner, INCLUDING y (take energy and put it in an attack) just because they have a universal energy source?

Yep, they should, especially if they have a universal energy source.