Problem with freezing feats (and therefore storm feats as well)

[KLOL506]

They're not "using" the energy that's being moved in cooling feats though. They're "using" their magic/abilities, and "removing" the thermal energy. The thermal energy isn't part of any attack, it's just a side effect that barely affects anything since it's so spaced out.

Alternatively, it can even be argued that we already disregard the laws of thermodynamics anyways (such as using GBE instead of mass-energy conversion for creation feats).

FOR THE LAST TIME, JAKUUB, IT LITERALLY DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE ENERGY IS USED LATER FOR. AS LONG AS THE ENERGY GETS MOVED, IT COUNTS. FULL STOP.

Also, we don't disregard mass-energy conversion feats if there is outright evidence for it or explicit statements for it.

 

[KLOL506]

They're not "using" the energy that's being moved in cooling feats though. They're "using" their magic/abilities, and "removing" the thermal energy. The thermal energy isn't part of any attack, it's just a side effect that barely affects anything since it's so spaced out.

isn't part of any attack

Except when they literally use said removal of thermal energy to generate ice projectiles and launch them or generate other ice structures. Bruh

 

[Jaakubb]

Except when they literally use said removal of thermal energy to generate ice projectiles and launch them or generate other ice structures. Bruh

They don't attack by launching that energy at enemies. They take the cooled thing and throw that at the enemy, or simply use their cooling ability on the enemy directly.

Anyways, could you please explain the logic behind it counting "AS LONG AS THE ENERGY GETS MOVED" and the character has a universal energy source or how it is true that "they should be able to move the energy in ANY manner, INCLUDING y (take energy and put it in an attack) just because they have a universal energy source"? It may seem straightforward to you but I don't get it.

 

[Jaakubb]

FOR THE LAST TIME, JAKUUB, IT LITERALLY DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THE ENERGY IS USED LATER FOR. AS LONG AS THE ENERGY GETS MOVED, IT COUNTS. FULL STOP.

Also, we don't disregard mass-energy conversion feats if there is outright evidence for it or explicit statements for it.

According to the laws of thermodynamics, a character would need to have the mass-energy of whatever they're creating to bring it into existence. However, we don't. I don't think we should, because that sounds like wank, but I just want you to be aware that in the case of creation feats we do indeed disregard the laws of thermodynamics.

 

[KLOL506]

They don't attack by launching that energy at enemies. They take the cooled thing and throw that at the enemy, or simply use their cooling ability on the enemy directly.

Anyways, could you please explain the logic behind it counting "AS LONG AS THE ENERGY GETS MOVED" and the character has a universal energy source or how it is true that "they should be able to move the energy in ANY manner, INCLUDING y (take energy and put it in an attack) just because they have a universal energy source"? It may seem straightforward to you but I don't get it.

First off, the first paragraph literally debunks your notion that the freezing feat is not being used as an attack.

As for the second paragraph, bruh, do I really need to explain to you the fundamentals of how chakra, ki the Force and Haki and other universal energy sources like this work? Literally works like this-

"Character with enough mental dedication uses the energy source to generate elemental attacks, then uses the same energy source and the same energy yield to then focus it on their fists, legs and other body parts for physical combat, then lets it all out by landing that punch, kick, headbutt or whatever, and then character survives recoil of punch thanks to good old Newton's Third Law".

Some examples-

Ki Control in Dragon Ball: EVERY SINGLE CHARACTER WHO CAN MANIPULATE KI (And it's pretty much everyone in the verse since even normal humans can donate ki to the Spirit Bomb) can then use it to launch devastating attacks powerful enough to blow up solar systems and universes. But full well knowing the collateral damage that results in this, they focus their area of impact of the blasts and control the blast in all essential so that the energy yield stays the same but the area affected is relatively small. Same Ki can then be used to amplify the entire body to toughen it up and then to land a series of devastating punches and kicks and then withstand the immense recoil of said attacks. There are literally HUNDREDS of showings where the likes of Goku, Vegeta, Cell, Beerus, Jiren, Toppo and other OP characters in DB casually swat aside said ki attacks with utter ease.

Chakra in Naruto: Basically you use Chakra to control the five elements- Water, Air, Fire, Lightning and Earth. Ice is a Kekkei Genkai (AKA it's an ability locked behind a bloodline paywall) but that's irrelevant, the main thing is, everyone has a chakra and a natural affinity to one of the five elements, they need chakra to create those elemental attacks. At the same time, they need chakra to be able to run on walls, water and even move at speeds faster than the naked eye and most of the time, even faster than lightning itself. Chakra specifically requires you to focus your energy into one specific spot of your body for maximum effect, like in the case of the Rasengan of both Naruto and his son Boruto, where you need to focus it onto one tiny spot of your hand and your body needs to be just as tough to withstand the recoil or else you risk permanently causing severe damage to your hand and being permanently out of commission as a ninja (Naruto faced this once with the Rasenshuriken initially before mastering it, and Boruto recently faced it with the Compression Rasengan). Another great example is of medical nin, where you need extreme precision with your hands and insane levels of chakra control to properly heal a wounded comrade or to perform life-threatening surgeries, and another advantage that comes from this kind of medical chakra control is that you can generate tremendous amounts of brute punching power, case in point, Tsunade and Sakura with their Chaka-enhanced punches, with both of them being elite medical nin and being able to wipe out entire city blocks with a casual kick for comedic effect.

Star Wars and the Force: The Force, is, essentially put, universal in all sense. Not everyone has a strong enough soul connection to use that energy, but Force-sensitive peeps like the Jedi and Sith can use that energy and use it to amplify themselves and do insane stuff like mindhax entire planets, make massive country-sized ships float in mid-air with their mind, do insane backflips or just blow up entire galaxies and the like with a single handwave or thought.

These are just a few examples, tons more exist like it.

Now, if you can't understand something as simple as this and seriously think these characters don't know the energy yield of their own attacks or how to control it with such precision (Especially when a verse like Naruto and Dragon Ball hammer down the concept of precise control with their attacks repeatedly), then I can't help you any further.

 

[KLOL506]

According to the laws of thermodynamics, a character would need to have the mass-energy of whatever they're creating to bring it into existence. However, we don't. I don't think we should, because that sounds like wank, but I just want you to be aware that in the case of creation feats we do indeed disregard the laws of thermodynamics.

Bruh, if there are explicit references to mass-energy conversions or the verse gives explicit evidences and/or explicit acknowledgement of mass-energy conversions taking place why the heck would you assume that they wouldn't have the mass-energy of whatever they're bringing into existence?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

According to the laws of thermodynamics, a character would need to have the mass-energy of whatever they're creating to bring it into existence.

According to the laws of thermodynamics, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. So unless it's stated to be mass energy, creation feats outright violate thermodynamics.

 

[Jaakubb]

According to the laws of thermodynamics, energy cannot be created nor destroyed. So unless it's stated to be mass energy, creation feats outright violate thermodynamics.

A way they would obey thermodynamics is if they aren't creating things from nothing, but forming matter from energy stored within their bodies. We're not going to go with this since it's wank, so the point is that we are willing to disregard the laws of thermodynamics

 

[Jaakubb]

As for the second paragraph, bruh, do I really need to explain to you the fundamentals of how chakra, ki the Force and Haki and other universal energy sources like this work? Literally works like this-

"Character with enough mental dedication uses the energy source to generate elemental attacks, then uses the same energy source and the same energy yield to then focus it on their fists, legs and other body parts for physical combat, then lets it all out by landing that punch, kick, headbutt or whatever, and then character survives recoil of punch thanks to good old Newton's Third Law".

There are two groups of energy present in freezing feats (if we insist on following the laws of thermodynamics HERE specifically for some reason): the energy that the character inputs, and the energy that is removed from the object. When we use Q=mCdeltaT and the latent energies to calculate freezing feats, we are measuring the second group, not the first group. The problem is, the second group originates from the OBJECT, not the character. Also, the chakra, ki etc. systems simply allow for arbitrary manipulation of energy from their energy source. The second group of energy is NOT from the character's energy source, but it originates from the OBJECT being frozen. It is already inside that object (yes, there is thermal energy inside all objects that aren't at absolute zero). So, there is no reason to believe that the character is able to arbitrarily manipulate the energy that we calc with Q=mCdeltaT since it does NOT originate from the character's energy source, so it doesn't fall within the sort of "warranty" that the chakra, ki etc. systems give.

 

[KLOL506]

There are two groups of energy present in freezing feats (if we insist on following the laws of thermodynamics HERE specifically for some reason): the energy that the character inputs, and the energy that is removed from the object. When we use Q=mCdeltaT and the latent energies to calculate freezing feats, we are measuring the second group, not the first group. The problem is, the second group originates from the OBJECT, not the character. Also, the chakra, ki etc. systems simply allow for arbitrary manipulation of energy from their energy source. The second group of energy is NOT from the character's energy source, but it originates from the OBJECT being frozen. It is already inside that object (yes, there is thermal energy inside all objects that aren't at absolute zero). So, there is no reason to believe that the character is able to arbitrarily manipulate the energy that we calc with Q=mCdeltaT since it does NOT originate from the character's energy source, so it doesn't fall within the sort of "warranty" that the chakra, ki etc. systems give.

Are you serious right now?

The chakra literally originates from the user's body, without chakra the user can't do shit and if he runs out of it completely he's gonna die of exhaustion. And no, the chakra is repeatedly stated in the media to be the sole source of being able to generate said elemental attacks, same chakra is then used to amplify their own attacks. And the person has to move away the thermal energy from the object to use it elsewhere, since thermal energy moves from one point to another. How hard is it to grasp? Are you seriously expecting me to believe that people with precise chakra control can't move that energy away to make it their own energy and focus it on their physical strikes? Especially when even more advanced techniques like the Sage Mode exist solely for absorbing all sorts of energy into oneself to significantly amp themselves in both punching power, speed and overall effectiveness of their jutsu?

 

[KLOL506]

A way they would obey thermodynamics is if they aren't creating things from nothing, but forming matter from energy stored within their bodies. We're not going to go with this since it's wank, so the point is that we are willing to disregard the laws of thermodynamics

But... that is LITERALLY WHAT CREATION MEANS. TO CREATE SHIT OUT OF NOTHING. If they made it out of their own energy stored within their bodies it would be nothing more than Energy Manipulation. Creation literally violates thermodynamics by default.

If you don't believe me, read the Creation page.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, first off, I don't really want to put forward two mutually exclusive counterarguments at once. So I'll ask you, why are we choosing to observe the laws of thermodynamics NOW?

Because you brought it up in the first place?

Again, Creation by default violates thermodynamics because it literally involves creating something out of nothing. You literally won't be granted the ability otherwise if you fashion something out of an already existing material.

 

[Jaakubb]

First off, you really are reaching if you think your Creation page is authoritative in any sense of the word. You guys are literally random people on the internet, and half of the people who do know you think you're stupid. I doubt any more than a tenth of the creation feats documented on this wiki are proven or even IMPLIED to be from nothing.

 

[KLOL506]

First off, you really are reaching if you think your Creation page is authoritative in any sense of the word. You guys are literally random people on the internet, and half of the people who do know you think you're stupid. I doubt any more than a tenth of the creation feats documented on this wiki are proven or even IMPLIED to be from nothing.

Oh dear lord, here we go with questioning people's intelligence.

That kind of language is not gonna help anyone here Jakuub.

BTW, can I kindly know who those "half of the people" are? Just so that I can know you're not doing this out of spite.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Why is this still going on, I thought this topic was already settled a long time ago, Freezing and Storm feats will continue to scale to other stats as long as there is a Universal Energy System

Like frankly this can be closed...

 

[Chariot190]

You guys are literally random people on the internet, and half of the people who do know you think you're stupid.

Isn't that literally just the pot calling the kettle black?

even IMPLIED to be from nothing.

You right, most are done from a character's own energy from their universal energy system 80% of the time.
So like...

 

[Jaakubb]

Oh dear lord, here we go with questioning people's intelligence.

That kind of language is not gonna help anyone here Jakuub.

BTW, can I kindly know who those "half of the people" are? Just so that I can know you're not doing this out of spite.

The problem is that you used this site as a source for your argument. That is stupid and should be called out as such.

 

[KLOL506]

The problem is that you used this site as a source for your argument. That is stupid and should be called out as such.

But... that's literally how we treat creation feats. Especially those with reality warping shenanigans

 

[ShieldsPlus]

@Jaakubb Can the energy required to freeze and/or melt an object also be used to increase a character's physical strength and durability? Feats like this should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, as while the chakra example can be applied towards multiple different forms/methods, other forms of power (specifically magic) don't necessarily increase a character's physical strength and durability unless it specifically shows that they can do so.

 

[Jaakubb]

Like frankly this can be closed...

KLOL was literally about to start talking about his position of how thermodynamics fits in with all of this. It is not over, don't pretend it is.

 

[Chariot190]

you used the site you're on for an argument being made on the site we're on.

You do know where you are right? This ain't Reddit or youtube or some other wiki, of course the pages created to be used here are gonna be used here, if you have qualms with the page itself, make a revision for that, but it best be a good one as to not waste everyone's time.

 

[Jaakubb]

But... that's literally how we treat creation feats.

You're saying that our whole approach to creation feats is "this explanation is true because we said it is"? Can anyone else confirm this?

 

[KLOL506]

You're saying that our whole approach to creation feats is "this explanation is true because we said it is"? Can anyone else confirm this?

That's literally what the page says, it's not my words.

As in, you get creation if you create something out of nothing. I know nothing of this "explanation" you're speaking of.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

KLOL was literally about to start talking about his position of how thermodynamics fits in with all of this. It is not over, don't pretend it is.

I’m just saying nothing new is being said here, majority of staff and regular members agree with me and KLOL’s stances

It was agreed upon in a previous staff thread

 

[KLOL506]

KLOL was literally about to start talking about his position of how thermodynamics fits in with all of this. It is not over, don't pretend it is.

No, it was you who brought in the issue of thermodynamics and creation into this whole mess.

 

[Jaakubb]

No, it was you who brought in the issue of thermodynamics and creation into this whole mess.

Yes, I brought it in, and you were about to tell your side of it. That directly contradicts what DemonGodMitchAubin said about "nothing new" being said. That is something new.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

Just need to make sure, since creation feats are feats that inherently violate the laws of thermodynamics as well as the law of conservation of energy, there could be a specific scenario where a character who can create something (like a parallel dimension) out of nothing wouldn't have his durability and physical strength scale to that, unless it's specifically shown that he could do so.

This argument doesn't apply to characters in Tier 2, but for the tiers lower than that, it might.

Btw if freezing and melting feats are done through external devices like machines, said feats wouldn't directly scale to the character using the machine, I guess. It's probably because machines and how a machine would work is completely different from how an organic body would work.

 

[KLOL506]

Just need to make sure, since creation feats are feats that inherently violate the laws of thermodynamics as well as the law of conservation of energy, there could be a specific scenario where a character who can create something (like a parallel dimension) out of nothing wouldn't have his durability and physical strength scale to that, unless it's specifically shown that he could do so.

This argument doesn't apply to characters in Tier 2, but for the tiers lower than that, it might.

Btw if freezing and melting feats are done through external devices like machines, said feats wouldn't directly scale to the character using the machine, I guess. It's probably because machines and how a machine would work is completely different from how an organic body would work.

Mostly true. We already did it in the Creation feats revision thread where the character would scale to creating stuff out of nothing only if it manages to use the same sort of creation potency into an attack and so on.

But in the latter case if said machine is a Cyborg or a robot doing the freezing/heating feat then that's a different thing (Cyborgs and Robots aren't inanimate and thus can control the amount of energy they use for their elemental attacks and then use the same energy for physical attacks and so on since most fiction shows robots using a single energy source for all their attacks). We took care of the inanimate machine argument in the threads prior to this.

 

[Chariot190]

This argument doesn't apply to characters in Tier 2, but for the tiers lower than that, it might.

Not inherently wrong, I can think of a few examples off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure the main argument here, is that within the situation where that character created whatever it was using some sort of energy, like ki or whatever, and he can also use said ki to attack with laser beams or something and both types of feats are drawn from the exact same pool of energy or power, there's a bit of credence to imply the source of power used to perform the creation can also be used in an offensive manner.

Then like 99% of the time it ends up scaling to durability or some shit because they can tank their own attacks or attacks from others of equal power, though if they can also enhance their durability or something with said power, then it potentially skips the middle man all together.

At least that's what I gather from what I've seen in these types of threads, there's definitely times where this isn't the case though, case and point. But if the above specified is in play, most of the time that's generally how it goes.

 

[KLOL506]

Not inherently wrong, I can think of a few examples off the top of my head, but I'm pretty sure the main argument here, is that within the situation where that character created whatever it was using some sort of energy, like ki or whatever, and he can also use said ki to attack with laser beams or something and both types of feats are drawn from the exact same pool of energy or power, there's a bit of credence to imply the source of power used to perform the creation can also be used in an offensive manner.

Then like 99% of the time it ends up scaling to durability or some shit because they can tank their own attacks or attacks from others of equal power, though if they can also enhance their durability or something with said power, then it potentially skips the middle man all together.

At least that's what I gather from what I've seen in these types of threads, there's definitely times where this isn't the case though, case and point. But if the above specified is in play, most of the time that's generally how it goes.

Exactly.

 

[Jaakubb]

Alright. Anyways, I've shown that new things pertaining to freezing feats have come up in this thread, haven't I? So is this thread going to stay open, or am I going to have to make a tiny revision on the Creation page to reword the definition of "creation" BEFORE making my point?

 

[KLOL506]

Alright. Anyways, I've shown that new things pertaining to freezing feats have come up in this thread, haven't I? So is this thread going to stay open, or am I going to have to make a tiny revision on the Creation page to reword the definition of "creation" BEFORE making my point?

No, you haven't shown anything new pertaining to it. All of these arguments both I, DDM and Agnaa have dealt with before and I myself have had to repeatedly bring up the universal power source point repeatedly over and over again. And already you want to start another CRT that'll lead us nowhere and will simply keep circulating the same points over and over and over again.

Yes, I brought it in, and you were about to tell your side of it. That directly contradicts what DemonGodMitchAubin said about "nothing new" being said. That is something new.

Also false, we discussed stuff like this on the previous threads and on my message wall before the move (And also on Agnaa's message wall and DDM's, I kept a close watch on both of them before the forum move struck), especially thermodynamics. I simply told my side of it because this was similar to what we talked about on my message thread.

 

[Jaakubb]

All I said was under the impression that we had to follow thermodynamics. Now, I've realized that that's not necessary. Your argument is a lot weaker if we're OK with disregarding thermodynamics.

 

[KLOL506]

All I said was under the impression that we had to follow thermodynamics. Now, I've realized that that's not necessary. Your argument is a lot weaker if we're OK with disregarding thermodynamics.

What argument, exactly?

Again, Creation by default violates thermodynamics according to our standards, and even if you did create shit out of your own energy, that only means you don't get access to the ability itself (As in, you won't get the Creation ability put in the Powers and Abilities section), but there's still the fact that you still scale to the GBE thing you just created using the universal energy source and then you use the same energy source to amp up your punches and kicks, which is pretty much what happens in most of fiction, like Chariot just explained.

 

[Jaakubb]

Alright. So the laws of thermodynamics don't matter then (I agree). So when they remove the energy from the object, it does not even get transferred into the environment. It simply gets removed. Why does it scale to universal energy source characters then if the energy doesn't go anywhere?

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was brought here against my will. I said these were stupid the last time they were brought up and I'm not too keen on having the ye olde bickering match over who's more right based on semantics. So I'll dump the old reasons I had to disagree with axing this sorta thing. Sorry if these aren't relevant to the ongoing thread, just voicing my dissent then dipping.

1. We don't need to get to a point of complexity that any average user has no idea what on Earth we're talking about. First and foremost this is a hobby with a level of reasonable accuracy already established. Splitting hairs will, in my opinion, do very little other than annoy those dealing with the split hairs and confuse those witnessing the fallout.

2. Something something our system calculates changes in energy, which cooling provably is. For whatever reason people consistently ignore the fact that taking energy out is just as viable as putting it in.

the dead horse has been beaten enough, just slap me as firmly against. cheers.

 

[Jaakubb]

For whatever reason people consistently ignore the fact that taking energy out is just as viable as putting it in.

The reason is because it's not true. Is this some kind of religious doctrine that we all have to adhere by? If so, could you at least admit that it's arbitrary and not based on anything?

 

[KLOL506]

The reason is because it's not true. Is this some kind of religious doctrine that we all have to adhere by? If so, could you at least admit that it's arbitrary and not based on anything?

Except it is? Especially with a universal energy source. That's also how the definition of Attack Potency literally works here on the wiki. You calculate a joule value and it qualifies, whether it scales to physicals will be determined on a case-by-case basis depending on what evidence the fictional verse gives us. Unless you wanna revise Attack Potency as well now?

Alright. So the laws of thermodynamics don't matter then (I agree). So when they remove the energy from the object, it does not even get transferred into the environment. It simply gets removed. Why does it scale to universal energy source characters then if the energy doesn't go anywhere?

What? During cooling energy moves from a higher state to a lower state, what you're asking for is blatant Existence Erasure. Remember, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only transform.

In freezing feats like this the energy gets transferred from the hot object to the dude using his energy to freeze it up. The cold beams of Ice manipulating dudes rapidly absorb heat into them from the surroundings.

 

[Jaakubb]

What? During cooling energy moves from a higher state to a lower state, what you're asking for is blatant Existence Erasure. Remember, energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only transform.

In freezing feats like this the energy gets transferred from the hot object to the dude using his energy to freeze it up. The cold beams of Ice manipulating dudes rapidly absorb heat into them from the surroundings.

I thought we were OK with disregarding the laws of thermodynamics, like with creation feats... Are you or are you not? Or do you just want to specifically use the laws of thermodynamics for freezing feats but not for creation feats?

 

[KLOL506]

I thought we were OK with disregarding the laws of thermodynamics, like with creation feats... Are you or are you not? Or do you just want to specifically use the laws of thermodynamics for freezing feats but not for creation feats?

Creation feats automatically violate laws of thermodynamics if it is high-end reality warping levels of creating something out of nothing, PERIOD, we don't just have to say "Oh it was created out of nothing, it defies thermodynamics and basic laws of physics as a whole", it's blatantly shown to be that way by default. That has nothing to do with you creating planetoids out of your own energy source which wouldn't grant you the ability of Creation anyway.

And I still don't get how Creation is remotely related to the topics of freezing or moving big boi clouds at hand.