Problem with freezing feats (and therefore storm feats as well)

[Jaakubb]

Creation feats automatically violate laws of thermodynamics if it is high-end reality warping levels of creating something out of nothing, PERIOD, we don't just have to say "Oh it was created out of nothing, it defies thermodynamics and basic laws of physics as a whole", it's blatantly shown to be that way by default.

Your wording here is very confusing. Do you agree or disagree with the quoted statement?

 

[Jaakubb]

And I still don't get how Creation is remotely related to the topics of freezing or moving big boi clouds at hand.

Because what argument I make depends on whether or not we have to go with the laws of thermodynamics

 

[KLOL506]

Your wording here is very confusing. Do you agree or disagree with the quoted statement?

Bruh what part of my wording here is confusing?

Are you seriously saying that the Ice Wielder absorbing heat into their body to freeze stuff or their ice beams absorbing heat into themselves while freezing stuff is confusing? Are you for real now?

 

[KLOL506]

Because what argument I make depends on whether or not we have to go with the laws of thermodynamics

Except your arguments are completely upside down. Creation feats would parallel heat feats while existence erasure would parallel freezing feats. Creation creates and heat generates, while Existence Erasure completely wipes out all traces of stuff from history itself and freezing merely removes heat from an object and moves it to the colder medium.

 

[KLOL506]

Also what part of "Creation feats automatically violate thermodynamics and we don't have to say anything else because it literally does the work for us" do you not understand? Even if we tried to use thermodynamics on reality warping creation where shit is fashioned out of nothingness, we couldn't for obvious reasons, Reality Warping is basically bypassing common sense and warping how truth and fiction work, it's like literally editing the universe's history as if you were using MS Paint or a Word document and the document just so happens to be the datalog of every single event that has ever happened or will ever happened.

 

[KLOL506]

Also, not all fictions are built the same, all have varying degrees of usage of laws of physics and the like and even then there are massive differences as to how they operate, so it's not like we just toss laws of physics out of the window every time the charater does something wildly impossible by IRL standards, that's not how we do things. We still take aspects of the character's feats or their powers into account and then we apply the math where it works, we just don't nitpick the unrealistic feats just because they're impossible by nature IRL. We calc what is possible to calc, and we don't calc what isn't.

 

[Jaakubb]

Don't close this thread. I just have to go to sleep.

 

[KLOL506]

Don't close this thread. I just have to go to sleep.

I don't see the point of keeping it open tho, every single issue you brought up was just the same issues being brought up in a circulatory manner, issues most of us here dealt with in our personal message threads and the previous threads on this topic.

And constantly pestering other members and staff in their message walls about this just to change their minds with the same old arguments having been dealt with countless times in the past also doesn't help.

 

[RoyGundam]

Freezing, or cooling down the temperature requires Work to be done (in the thermodynamic sense). The general assumption is that real world physics is valid so Freezing or cooling down feats should logically scale to Power (even AP as the case may be)

 

[KLOL506]

Freezing, or cooling down the temperature requires Work to be done (in the thermodynamic sense). The general assumption is that real world physics is valid so Freezing or cooling down feats should logically scale to Power (even AP as the case may be)

Yes, that much is certain, even if there is evidence that the character's freezing ability's energy yield is different from his physical punching yield, freezing feats would still be listed as a separate AP feat no matter what. We're not gonna remove freezing from qualifying for AP as a whole.

 

[RoyGundam]

I was just making leeway for exceptional cases. But yes, freezing feats should normally scale to AP

 

[KLOL506]

I was just making leeway for exceptional cases. But yes, freezing feats should normally scale to AP

And if there is evidence that the energy source the character uses for freezing feats is the same as the energy source the character uses for his punches and kicks (I.e. good old universal energy source in several verses where their strength is shown in a linear scale), then it would scale to their physical strength and durability as well.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright, it's about time I step in to clarify everything here.

The very first thing to tackle is heat vs cold. And yes, the two things are very well related. It's about as counter active as a leaf blower vs a vacuum; one pushes as much air as much as the other pulls air. When one heats an object, you are importing thermal energy into an object. And when you freeze or cool an object, you are extracting thermal energy from the object. The primary point is, both cases are still X tier levels of energy manipulation. And there's even more details to that. Details explained here how the concept of energy transferring works. Thermal energy is also defined in details here. It is described as the combined kinetic energy of atoms and/or molecules inside the object in motion. For example, the thermal energy of a glass of water is the combined kinetic energy of all water molecules in the glass. In order to heat up, the water molecules need to speed up, where as they need to slow down. But at the same time, the atoms and or molecules of other particles also need to speed up or slow down via laws of thermal dynamics theoretically speaking.

Now what happens when you heat an object, an object can only be heated if one or more object is cooled down; whether it be you or the air surrounding the object. Likewise, in order to freeze and object, you need to either heat up one or more object, whether it be you or the air surrounding it. And when you do that, you are also manipulating the particles in motion whether passively or actively. Which still requires X joules of energy manipulation regardless if you're using your own energy. Speaking of change in temperature and, atoms, and molecules; there's something even more elaborate and complex than either one of those. That is the electrons, protons, and neutrons. Electrons are the main concept of electrical energy, with neutrons having a neutral charge, and protons having a positive charge. But that's where the main definitions of negative energy, neutral energy, and positive energy come from.

We have a study on negative energy written by none other than Stephen Hawking. He further elaborates the definition of positive energy and negative energy. Positive energy is the energy required to separate two or more structures, typically on an atomic or molecular structure. Where as negative energy is the energy being used to fuse two or more objects together. Typically in the form of gravity or magnetism. But it's more importantly included when it comes to objects on an atomic or molecular level. Hence the 4 stages of matter. Atoms and molecules are much more separate in a gas or plasma, where as there is much more unity in that of a liquid or solid. Hence why various metals are most commonly seen as a form of solid where as things like oxygen or nitrogen are in typical gas forms. It's because some objects have a lot more negative energy compared to positive energy. And thus are much harder to heat up to the point of melting or vaporizing. This is for specific temperature and less about heat capacity, but that's a different story. But this is important to talk about regarding how the transfer of heat works too which I'll get to later but first.

Now actually the real form for thermal dynamics isn't energy per say, but rather power. Power has watts as its official measuring unit and we go by joules per second. Watt is the defined of how much work or energy is being produced per second. And it applies to all energy transfer policies. When calculating the attack potency of all thermal energy feats, we use watts. As it takes 1000 seconds to transfer 2 Gigajoules of energy; it is commonly assumed that this will be a Building level feat. However, it is merely a wall level feat. Attack potency for strikes are defined by the energy of a single attack, but thermal energy based attack potency is thermal energy conducted per second. Regardless of how much energy is required to extract energy from an object with your powers, it never changes the fact that it still requires X watts of energy. Exception is if it takes a mere fraction of a second. If it takes a mere nanosecond to heat up or freeze something by 100 joules, a baseline 10-A feat. Using the billionth of a second formula to get 100 Gigajoules would be Calc Stacking. However, even if someone hasn't absorbed energy into their body upon absorbing thermal energy, the fact that they're even moving thermal energy to begin with is more than enough proof to scale to AP since the watts of work is still there. Side note, a laser that takes 1000 years to vaporize a mountain would logically be far less than island level if it took that long. Given said feat is 5 Gigatons. It would be 5 Megatons pure year and would end up being 9-A+ if that's energy per second. A much more believable value for feats like that.

Now I need to go back to addressing storm feats. They are typically formed via Convective available potential energy also known as CAPE. You only really need to read the 3rd paragraph of this post + the first paragraph of the article. CAPE is formed when positive energy collides with negative energy. There is positive energy causing heat to rise and humidity to rise, while negative energy causes it all to fall. It is a naturally occurring event, but it is NOT a chain reaction. A Chain reaction is defined as a giant wave of energy set up to it can be caused by little to no work. For example, pushing a button or hit a switch to cause an avalanche or a nuclear explosion; those are examples of chain reactions. Or lighting tiny fires on highly flammable chemicals causing the giant pile of chemical energy to transform into thermal energy and release into the atmosphere. But no, CAPE is not a chain reaction. It is Tier 7 levels of positive energy, Tier 7 levels of negative energy, and giant blasts of wind doing all the work. Since this is wind doing most of the work, it requires Tier 7 levels of energy to be present in order to form a storm to begin with. However, in areas with little to no humidity, various mages can often cause storms. They are still causing everything to come in place; the positive energy and negative energy would still have to come from somewhere, even if there isn't humidity to form it all. They may also be using the wind to do it all. Hence, it is self evident that in such scenarios, it is the mage doing all the work, and especially if they can spam it back and forth and dissipate the same storms just as easy.

Now on to the tackling of thermodynamics. Yes, it can be argued very few fictional stories follow the laws of thermal dynamics. But freezing feats don't violate them any more than heating feats do. If one's argument is there's no proof they absorb thermal energy, I can counter that by saying there's no proof the person's body hotter than the center of the sun when they released their Tier 7 heat wave out of their hand. If fiction followed the laws of thermodynamics, there body would have had to be that hot in order to release all that energy. Or the alternative is to assume they had a bunch of gasoline inside their blood or something. But KLOL already addressed above it's usually KI or Chakra. A Spiritual energy source inside their bodies. On topic, Android 17 and 18 possess an infinite amount of energy inside their built in batteries. If the laws of thermodynamics was accurate, they would either have to weigh an infinite amount of mass so they can store all that energy, or they would have to be infinite degrees Celsius so they store all that thermal energy. But in both cases, there is no proof of that, they just have infinite stamina. And they do very much possess an infinite pool of energy, but they cannot unleash it all in a single strike. They lack the infinite amount of work or power to channel it all. I already addressed freezing feats will be AP for the very same reason heating feats are, but it's heat vs blunt force trauma is worth discussing eventually.

Now regarding universal energy sources. I brought up multiple times both on this post and multiple times before hand that everything in the universe is made of energy. Every single type of energy in existence is transferable from one form to another in some way or form. So "Universal energy sources following the laws of thermodynamics? Actually to be perfectly franc, it doesn't just follow the laws of thermodynamics, it literally defines the laws of thermodynamics. Everything is connected. When we say, "Fiction doesn't follow the laws of physics or thermodynamics" it doesn't mean not a single scientific law exists, it just means it does but works differently. Each and every universe has their own laws of science but are more or less taking the general premise. Energy is still energy, and that's all you really need to know when defining attack potency. Other abilities such as striking strength, or durability are different stories, but never the less, it is analyzed in a case be case scenario. Now I better define the definition of producing energy.

Now the definition of produce, it has several definitions. Most of it basically says to make or create something. However, it also has building, extending, or controlling as its definitions. But anyway, our definition should be redefined as the ability to produce or conduct energy. It doesn't matter where the energy source comes from, even if you natural internal pool of energy is equal to that of ordinary humans, extracting external energy is still producing energy in the form of conducting it. It is still X tier levels of energy manipulation. When someone above said, "I never heard of a single piece of fiction where extracting energy scales to physical stats." While I agree Dragon Ball, Naruto, ect aren't the best examples for explaining those issues since they all use internal energy as opposed to external energy. Better example would be Jedi and Sith from Star Wars. Naturally, they don't have that much internal pool of energy, their pool of energy is external. And they properly utilize energy from the universe to amplify the kinetic energy of their physical strikes and telekinetic powers. So using the force can be defined similarly to how freezing feats via supernatural powers work, and this is an example of people using said energy feats to amp their physical strikes. And Newton's third law also makes it scale to durability. Now as for getting killed by Tier 9 stuff, that is part of their CIS weakness, their durability drops exponentially when distracted. But while they're amping themselves via mental energy, they are physically strong as much as their extraction feats.

Now as for using internal energy to freeze objects, that still doesn't violate the laws of thermal dynamics. While their body being super cold is one argument for some characters like Glacius. Haku from Naruto uses internal chakra for freezing. It's a combination of wind chakra and water chakra. Wind can use it's sheer kinetic energy to cool objects much like it's doing to the water in this case scenario. And it can also propel the speed and force of a Kunai. Also, If Ki or Chakra can accelerate atoms and molecules, or cause nuclear explosions similar to those of Fusion bombs; which has electrons and negative energy by the way. They can have some of the Ki or Chakra have negative energy as well. They can logically using it to speed of electrons, and as electrons speed up; this can slow down protons, atoms, and molecules as a result. So they're still producing negative energy in this context. And this, the counterintuitive details would still make it an AP feat regardless. Another perfect example is Jin from Xenoblade. This guy is so badass, this is what he can do with his multiversal energy source being Ether. With his Ether, and there may be more elaborate details in the future, he can literally bend elementary particles with his Ether manipulation. He can accelerate particles to move at the speed of light, or even faster than the speed of light, and the sheer kinetic energy allows him to move that fast. Likewise, he can use use it for Freezing attack, especially on levels of Absolute Zero. He does this through sheer kinetic energy that is Ether. And yes, he does it by kinetically slowing down particles to they come to a complete stop. So Ether can be conductive energy or negative energy right there. And on topic, this is also the same guy who can literally freeze photons. I'm not going to advocate for some High 3-A upgrades here, but for now, he's Continent level via upscale above Malos and Mythra, who one-shotted three Continent sized Titans via a shockwave of sword clashes.

Now let's go back. Remember when all energy in the universe was stated to be a static number. Yes, all energy specifically, not kinetic energy, or thermal energy, or potential energy, or positive energy, or neutral energy, or negative energy. Just energy. Meaning it is possible to make all thermal energy in the universe lower but causing all the negative energy to skyrocket. Thus now it's a super dense planet or star; more like a giant black hole. Or it can all raise, then every planet and star would be much greater distance with much higher thermal energy and/or positive energy. Also, there is not a single physical object that has Absolute zero temperatures. Only outer space, and black holes have such temperatures. If any physical object with volume greater than 0 is absolute zero, it would have infinite mass as well as an infinite amount of negative energy. It would essentially be a black hole. Plenty of characters carry swords or lances frozen at AZ or colder than AZ, but they don't follow thermodynamics. But again, that's just fiction being fiction. And it's only impressive if those weapons actually abstract energy to get stabbed or impaled by those.

Now as for other environmental effects, fire doesn't just have all it's energy extracted when it's in cold air. The air can slowly cool the fire producing smoke, but water of the same temperature puts it out faster. This is because water has much more negative energy than air does and thus puts out fire faster. And also more density and heat capacity. but it's still consistent with how energy works. But you still got to give credit to those who douse flames without water. Such as Superman putting out fires with his super breath. This is also what happens when you blow out a candle, the wind of your mother disperses the flames do to the pressure extracting thermal energy from the fire lit candles. It is still producing energy.

So bottom-line, all freezing feats will be continued to treated the same way as heat feats. And storm feats are parallel to producing Tier 7 fireballs and Tier 7 Ice Bergs at the same time. The topic that should be discussed in a future thread is heat Vs Blunt force trauma. But universal energy sources will be the reason to scale, and absence if it being the reason to not scale in general cases. Side note, even Dargoo Faust, who is now currently retired, conceded permanently that freezing feats and heating feats are the same thing.

That is what I have to say for now.

 

[KLOL506]

Basically what DDM said.

As for heat vs blunt force trauma, we already agreed on the previous threads (Including Dargoo, DDM and DT themselves) that if there is evidence that the heat attacks prove to have significantly different yields than one's physical strength and dura or the elementals are shown to be powered on a different energy source than what is used for physical punches and kicks and the like (For example, Enji Todoroki and a bunch of MHA characters), then yes, the temperature feats will be listed as a separate statistic and may even have their own set of AP and dura. But no way in hell are we gonna discard them completely, because even though they are separate from physicals, they are still AP feats through and through. We already do this to quite an extent on a case-by-case basis and have been doing so for a long while and I see no good reason to deviate from this tried-and-true method.

But in the cases where universal energy sources do exist (Like in most shonen and RPG games and ironically, most of fiction) where the same energy is used to power all elemental attacks and is used to amp oneself physically in terms of punches and one's durability (An example being Ki in Dragon Ball where you can considerably harden your body with ki to then withstand the recoil of the ki enhanced punches and ironically DB characters can survive said punches without having said ki hardening as well, as long as the punch is on their level of course) in a linear fashion, then the elemental attacks will also automatically scale to one's physical striking strength and dura.

 

[FinePoint]

This thread should be closed.

A revision was proposed, and it was rejected with more than enough evidence and reasoning.
Whether or not Jaakubb is willing to accept such reasonable conclusions is his own problem, we're just repeating ourselves at this point.

 

[Jaakubb]

Freezing, or cooling down the temperature requires Work to be done (in the thermodynamic sense). The general assumption is that real world physics is valid so Freezing or cooling down feats should logically scale to Power (even AP as the case may be)

It's not a 1:1 ratio. It does NOT require x joules of work to move x joules of thermal energy. This is false and completely made up.

 

[Jaakubb]

This thread should be closed.

A revision was proposed, and it was rejected with more than enough evidence and reasoning.
Whether or not Jaakubb is willing to accept such reasonable conclusions is his own problem, we're just repeating ourselves at this point.

I have been making the point that it does NOT take x joules of work to move x joules of thermal energy as a response to people in this thread REPEATEDLY saying it even though it has ZERO basis in science, fiction, or logic. I want an answer as to WHY you people are pushing these lies.

 

[KLOL506]

I have been making the point that it does NOT take x joules of work to move x joules of thermal energy as a response to people in this thread REPEATEDLY saying it even though it has ZERO basis in science, fiction, or logic. I want an answer as to WHY you people are pushing these lies.

Sorry but that's not how any of this works. The ice beams or the dude using the ice abilities is literally absorbing the heat into them, heat flows from hot to cold when something cools down, it doesn't just get removed and get wiped out of existence. We measure how much heat is absorbed by the ice thingy via the freezing formula (Or in simple terms since I know of no better way, how much energy it takes to freeze stuff).

 

[KLOL506]

It's not a 1:1 ratio. It does NOT require x joules of work to move x joules of thermal energy. This is false and completely made up.

move thermal energy

Doesn't need to be that way pal. If said thermal energy has a calc'd value, it fits and it sits, even more so with a universal energy source. Plain and simple. Fiction doesn't sit around to follow what rules you say real-life physics has to follow, they have their own laws of physics to worry about.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I have been making the point that it does NOT take x joules of work to move x joules of thermal energy as a response to people in this thread REPEATEDLY saying it even though it has ZERO basis in science, fiction, or logic. I want an answer as to WHY you people are pushing these lies.

They have explained over and over again. All I see is that you REPEATEDLY don't like it, not that you have any reasonable counter arguments.

Why don't you take the time to address this here?

Alright, it's about time I step in to clarify everything here.

The very first thing to tackle is heat vs cold. And yes, the two things are very well related. It's about as counter active as a leaf blower vs a vacuum; one pushes as much air as much as the other pulls air. When one heats an object, you are importing thermal energy into an object. And when you freeze or cool an object, you are extracting thermal energy from the object. The primary point is, both cases are still X tier levels of energy manipulation. And there's even more details to that. Details explained here how the concept of energy transferring works. Thermal energy is also defined in details here. It is described as the combined kinetic energy of atoms and/or molecules inside the object in motion. For example, the thermal energy of a glass of water is the combined kinetic energy of all water molecules in the glass. In order to heat up, the water molecules need to speed up, where as they need to slow down. But at the same time, the atoms and or molecules of other particles also need to speed up or slow down via laws of thermal dynamics theoretically speaking.

Now what happens when you heat an object, an object can only be heated if one or more object is cooled down; whether it be you or the air surrounding the object. Likewise, in order to freeze and object, you need to either heat up one or more object, whether it be you or the air surrounding it. And when you do that, you are also manipulating the particles in motion whether passively or actively. Which still requires X joules of energy manipulation regardless if you're using your own energy. Speaking of change in temperature and, atoms, and molecules; there's something even more elaborate and complex than either one of those. That is the electrons, protons, and neutrons. Electrons are the main concept of electrical energy, with neutrons having a neutral charge, and protons having a positive charge. But that's where the main definitions of negative energy, neutral energy, and positive energy come from.

We have a study on negative energy written by none other than Stephen Hawking. He further elaborates the definition of positive energy and negative energy. Positive energy is the energy required to separate two or more structures, typically on an atomic or molecular structure. Where as negative energy is the energy being used to fuse two or more objects together. Typically in the form of gravity or magnetism. But it's more importantly included when it comes to objects on an atomic or molecular level. Hence the 4 stages of matter. Atoms and molecules are much more separate in a gas or plasma, where as there is much more unity in that of a liquid or solid. Hence why various metals are most commonly seen as a form of solid where as things like oxygen or nitrogen are in typical gas forms. It's because some objects have a lot more negative energy compared to positive energy. And thus are much harder to heat up to the point of melting or vaporizing. This is for specific temperature and less about heat capacity, but that's a different story. But this is important to talk about regarding how the transfer of heat works too which I'll get to later but first.

Now actually the real form for thermal dynamics isn't energy per say, but rather power. Power has watts as its official measuring unit and we go by joules per second. Watt is the defined of how much work or energy is being produced per second. And it applies to all energy transfer policies. When calculating the attack potency of all thermal energy feats, we use watts. As it takes 1000 seconds to transfer 2 Gigajoules of energy; it is commonly assumed that this will be a Building level feat. However, it is merely a wall level feat. Attack potency for strikes are defined by the energy of a single attack, but thermal energy based attack potency is thermal energy conducted per second. Regardless of how much energy is required to extract energy from an object with your powers, it never changes the fact that it still requires X watts of energy. Exception is if it takes a mere fraction of a second. If it takes a mere nanosecond to heat up or freeze something by 100 joules, a baseline 10-A feat. Using the billionth of a second formula to get 100 Gigajoules would be Calc Stacking. However, even if someone hasn't absorbed energy into their body upon absorbing thermal energy, the fact that they're even moving thermal energy to begin with is more than enough proof to scale to AP since the watts of work is still there. Side note, a laser that takes 1000 years to vaporize a mountain would logically be far less than island level if it took that long. Given said feat is 5 Gigatons. It would be 5 Megatons pure year and would end up being 9-A+ if that's energy per second. A much more believable value for feats like that.

Now I need to go back to addressing storm feats. They are typically formed via Convective available potential energy also known as CAPE. You only really need to read the 3rd paragraph of this post + the first paragraph of the article. CAPE is formed when positive energy collides with negative energy. There is positive energy causing heat to rise and humidity to rise, while negative energy causes it all to fall. It is a naturally occurring event, but it is NOT a chain reaction. A Chain reaction is defined as a giant wave of energy set up to it can be caused by little to no work. For example, pushing a button or hit a switch to cause an avalanche or a nuclear explosion; those are examples of chain reactions. Or lighting tiny fires on highly flammable chemicals causing the giant pile of chemical energy to transform into thermal energy and release into the atmosphere. But no, CAPE is not a chain reaction. It is Tier 7 levels of positive energy, Tier 7 levels of negative energy, and giant blasts of wind doing all the work. Since this is wind doing most of the work, it requires Tier 7 levels of energy to be present in order to form a storm to begin with. However, in areas with little to no humidity, various mages can often cause storms. They are still causing everything to come in place; the positive energy and negative energy would still have to come from somewhere, even if there isn't humidity to form it all. They may also be using the wind to do it all. Hence, it is self evident that in such scenarios, it is the mage doing all the work, and especially if they can spam it back and forth and dissipate the same storms just as easy.

Now on to the tackling of thermodynamics. Yes, it can be argued very few fictional stories follow the laws of thermal dynamics. But freezing feats don't violate them any more than heating feats do. If one's argument is there's no proof they absorb thermal energy, I can counter that by saying there's no proof the person's body hotter than the center of the sun when they released their Tier 7 heat wave out of their hand. If fiction followed the laws of thermodynamics, there body would have had to be that hot in order to release all that energy. Or the alternative is to assume they had a bunch of gasoline inside their blood or something. But KLOL already addressed above it's usually KI or Chakra. A Spiritual energy source inside their bodies. On topic, Android 17 and 18 possess an infinite amount of energy inside their built in batteries. If the laws of thermodynamics was accurate, they would either have to weigh an infinite amount of mass so they can store all that energy, or they would have to be infinite degrees Celsius so they store all that thermal energy. But in both cases, there is no proof of that, they just have infinite stamina. And they do very much possess an infinite pool of energy, but they cannot unleash it all in a single strike. They lack the infinite amount of work or power to channel it all. I already addressed freezing feats will be AP for the very same reason heating feats are, but it's heat vs blunt force trauma is worth discussing eventually.

Now regarding universal energy sources. I brought up multiple times both on this post and multiple times before hand that everything in the universe is made of energy. Every single type of energy in existence is transferable from one form to another in some way or form. So "Universal energy sources following the laws of thermodynamics? Actually to be perfectly franc, it doesn't just follow the laws of thermodynamics, it literally defines the laws of thermodynamics. Everything is connected. When we say, "Fiction doesn't follow the laws of physics or thermodynamics" it doesn't mean not a single scientific law exists, it just means it does but works differently. Each and every universe has their own laws of science but are more or less taking the general premise. Energy is still energy, and that's all you really need to know when defining attack potency. Other abilities such as striking strength, or durability are different stories, but never the less, it is analyzed in a case be case scenario. Now I better define the definition of producing energy.

Now the definition of produce, it has several definitions. Most of it basically says to make or create something. However, it also has building, extending, or controlling as its definitions. But anyway, our definition should be redefined as the ability to produce or conduct energy. It doesn't matter where the energy source comes from, even if you natural internal pool of energy is equal to that of ordinary humans, extracting external energy is still producing energy in the form of conducting it. It is still X tier levels of energy manipulation. When someone above said, "I never heard of a single piece of fiction where extracting energy scales to physical stats." While I agree Dragon Ball, Naruto, ect aren't the best examples for explaining those issues since they all use internal energy as opposed to external energy. Better example would be Jedi and Sith from Star Wars. Naturally, they don't have that much internal pool of energy, their pool of energy is external. And they properly utilize energy from the universe to amplify the kinetic energy of their physical strikes and telekinetic powers. So using the force can be defined similarly to how freezing feats via supernatural powers work, and this is an example of people using said energy feats to amp their physical strikes. And Newton's third law also makes it scale to durability. Now as for getting killed by Tier 9 stuff, that is part of their CIS weakness, their durability drops exponentially when distracted. But while they're amping themselves via mental energy, they are physically strong as much as their extraction feats.

Now as for using internal energy to freeze objects, that still doesn't violate the laws of thermal dynamics. While their body being super cold is one argument for some characters like Glacius. Haku from Naruto uses internal chakra for freezing. It's a combination of wind chakra and water chakra. Wind can use it's sheer kinetic energy to cool objects much like it's doing to the water in this case scenario. And it can also propel the speed and force of a Kunai. Also, If Ki or Chakra can accelerate atoms and molecules, or cause nuclear explosions similar to those of Fusion bombs; which has electrons and negative energy by the way. They can have some of the Ki or Chakra have negative energy as well. They can logically using it to speed of electrons, and as electrons speed up; this can slow down protons, atoms, and molecules as a result. So they're still producing negative energy in this context. And this, the counterintuitive details would still make it an AP feat regardless. Another perfect example is Jin from Xenoblade. This guy is so badass, this is what he can do with his multiversal energy source being Ether. With his Ether, and there may be more elaborate details in the future, he can literally bend elementary particles with his Ether manipulation. He can accelerate particles to move at the speed of light, or even faster than the speed of light, and the sheer kinetic energy allows him to move that fast. Likewise, he can use use it for Freezing attack, especially on levels of Absolute Zero. He does this through sheer kinetic energy that is Ether. And yes, he does it by kinetically slowing down particles to they come to a complete stop. So Ether can be conductive energy or negative energy right there. And on topic, this is also the same guy who can literally freeze photons. I'm not going to advocate for some High 3-A upgrades here, but for now, he's Continent level via upscale above Malos and Mythra, who one-shotted three Continent sized Titans via a shockwave of sword clashes.

Now let's go back. Remember when all energy in the universe was stated to be a static number. Yes, all energy specifically, not kinetic energy, or thermal energy, or potential energy, or positive energy, or neutral energy, or negative energy. Just energy. Meaning it is possible to make all thermal energy in the universe lower but causing all the negative energy to skyrocket. Thus now it's a super dense planet or star; more like a giant black hole. Or it can all raise, then every planet and star would be much greater distance with much higher thermal energy and/or positive energy. Also, there is not a single physical object that has Absolute zero temperatures. Only outer space, and black holes have such temperatures. If any physical object with volume greater than 0 is absolute zero, it would have infinite mass as well as an infinite amount of negative energy. It would essentially be a black hole. Plenty of characters carry swords or lances frozen at AZ or colder than AZ, but they don't follow thermodynamics. But again, that's just fiction being fiction. And it's only impressive if those weapons actually abstract energy to get stabbed or impaled by those.

Now as for other environmental effects, fire doesn't just have all it's energy extracted when it's in cold air. The air can slowly cool the fire producing smoke, but water of the same temperature puts it out faster. This is because water has much more negative energy than air does and thus puts out fire faster. And also more density and heat capacity. but it's still consistent with how energy works. But you still got to give credit to those who douse flames without water. Such as Superman putting out fires with his super breath. This is also what happens when you blow out a candle, the wind of your mother disperses the flames do to the pressure extracting thermal energy from the fire lit candles. It is still producing energy.

So bottom-line, all freezing feats will be continued to treated the same way as heat feats. And storm feats are parallel to producing Tier 7 fireballs and Tier 7 Ice Bergs at the same time. The topic that should be discussed in a future thread is heat Vs Blunt force trauma. But universal energy sources will be the reason to scale, and absence if it being the reason to not scale in general cases. Side note, even Dargoo Faust, who is now currently retired, conceded permanently that freezing feats and heating feats are the same thing.

That is what I have to say for now.

 

[Duedate8898]

If the topic is agreed to be down and over with, shall I close it?

 

[KLOL506]

If the topic is agreed to be down and over with, shall I close it?

Yeah, if you want to, you can close it.

 

[Jaakubb]

Come on, I now know what your argument is. I didn't before because there's nearly a thousand replies and I'm not going to read all of them. I should've asked, but I felt like you guys were going to tell me to just go through the threads. I'm actually going to respond to the arguments now.

 

[KLOL506]

Come on, I now know what your argument is. I didn't before because there's nearly a thousand replies and I'm not going to read all of them. I should've asked, but I felt like you guys were going to tell me to just go through the threads. I'm actually going to respond to the arguments now.

One thousand replies

A page gets made every 100 replies

Uhhhhhhh...

 

[KLOL506]

Come on, I now know what your argument is. I didn't before because there's nearly a thousand replies and I'm not going to read all of them. I should've asked, but I felt like you guys were going to tell me to just go through the threads. I'm actually going to respond to the arguments now.

Also we already did deal with all your arguments, you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again which time and time again I've had to respond to multiple times in a row, and you clearly haven't shown any proper counterarguments other than weird-ass references to cults, last Thursdayism and Occam's razor and whatnot (None of which even remotely make sense in this case and the last one should prolly not be used in debates like this in the first place for very obvious reasons), not to mention you simply going to other people's message walls to constantly pester them about mundane stuff like this.

 

[RoyGundam]

It's not a 1:1 ratio. It does NOT require x joules of work to move x joules of thermal energy. This is false and completely made up.

That is not my claim at least. In fact, you can calculate the number of joules of Heat that can be withdrawn by doing 1 joule of work under the theoretical limit of Thermodynamic efficiency by this formula : Tc/Th-Tc (Th and Tc being the hot and cold Temperatures in K respectively). For example, for taking water at room temperature to 0 degree C the ratio is ~10

 

[RoyGundam]

For flash freezing large quantities of water however, I think the temperature has to fall a lot below 0 degree C

 

[KLOL506]

We still have an energy yield value to work around with regardless. The ratio literally doesn't matter as the actions are basically opposite sides of the same coin, heat generates, cold removes. Simple as that.

Even the removed energy would count for something since freezing feats happen typically rapidly, slow freezing over time obviously doesn't count.

 

[Jaakubb]

Also we already did deal with all your arguments, you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over again which time and time again I've had to respond to multiple times in a row, and you clearly haven't shown any proper counterarguments other than weird-ass references to cults, last Thursdayism and Occam's razor and whatnot (None of which even remotely make sense in this case and the last one should prolly not be used in debates like this in the first place for very obvious reasons), not to mention you simply going to other people's message walls to constantly pester them about mundane stuff like this.

I'm literally about to respond to DDM's post that was quoted. This IS different.

 

[KLOL506]

I'm literally about to respond to DDM's post that was quoted. This IS different.

He literally typed in the same things he did back in the previous threads though.

 

[Jaakubb]

Which threads? I must have missed it.

 

[KLOL506]

Which threads? I must have missed it.

Can't tell if you're screwing with me or not.

You were literally in those three threads + the message wall threads full of constant roundabouts and pestering and actively engaging in them with Dargoo, DDM, me, Agnaa and other calc group members when the old forum was still going on.

 

[Jaakubb]

What I'll say now is that DDM grossly misused the term "negative energy." Is that new at least? Perhaps I never got to that.

But what I meant is I must have missed the thread where DDM made that argument that ElixirBlue quoted earlier in this thread. I wasn't invested in the entire thread since you guys wanted to talk about heat feats and I knew you wouldn't go back to freezing feats just because I hadn't responded yet.

 

[RoyGundam]

For flash-freezing, I'd suspect at least polar vortex level of temperatures (< -40 degree C) would be required. At which stage ratio of cooling to work done is around 3

 

[KLOL506]

What I'll say now is that DDM grossly misused the term "negative energy." Is that new at least? Perhaps I never got to that.

But what I meant is I must have missed the thread where DDM made that argument that ElixirBlue quoted earlier in this thread. I wasn't invested in the entire thread since you guys wanted to talk about heat feats and I knew you wouldn't go back to freezing feats just because I hadn't responded yet.

No, we weren't talking about heat feats in this specific thread, we were talking about freezing feats and your arguments related to it.

Heat argument's already been done including what to do with that in the second and third threads related to this, now we're just stuck with freezing feats and your issues with storm feats, and in the case for the latter you should have made a different storm thread instead of mixing it with freezing feats as a whole.

 

[Jaakubb]

I wasn't talking about "this specific thread." I literally specified in my sentence that I was talking about "the thread [I should have said "message"] where DDM made that argument that ElixirBlue quoted earlier in this thread." Anyways, in the original thread about temperature feats in general, people started talking about heat feats before I responded to what DDM said because it wasn't my thread, and obviously the people in a thread aren't going to make sure everyone has made their points before moving on to a different topic. Anyways, I don't think I was nearly as involved during these arguments. Also, probably never even saw DDM's argument. Even if I did, it must have been overshadowed by newer arguments that I felt I had to respond to. So either I forgot about DDM's post due to new stuff or I simply never saw it. Now, at this moment, I certainly have seen it, and I certainly will remember it.

 

[ShieldsPlus]

Are the old threads about the temperature and freezing feats still there here in this forum, or are they all gone now?

Chances are, you guys may have lost really important threads about this particular topic that should have been archived.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

They all been moved here; they were concluded/closed before May 18th

 

[KLOL506]

Are the old threads about the temperature and freezing feats still there here in this forum, or are they all gone now?

Chances are, you guys may have lost really important threads about this particular topic that should have been archived.

Like DDM said, they've all been imported here and were all concluded, which is how we came to the standards we're using now and the ones which I've explained countless times to Jakuub, which he simply doesn't wanna accept.

 

[Duedate8898]

If nothing more is to be said here, I shall be closing the thread now.