Possible Upgrades? (Questionable)

[Udlmaster]

Well, you didn't argue the SCP 1831 reasoning. And again you said 4+ beings (Including the Lunarians) who have shown 3-A feats as "Outliers", even though an Outlier doesn't occur more then say twice. Like, Batman kicking Spectre, 1st time is an Outlier, 2nd time is weird, 3rd time is looking different and 4th time is a pattern.

And you ignored 90% of the comment relating to Gensokyo itself being a Quantum world, I never brought up the Verse as a whole or even the Universe, I never even brought them up so I don't know how you got them confused with each other: "Good lord people, learn some physics. "Quantum World" means absolutely nothing, unless it's just a weird way of saying "A world which follows quantum mechanics", which means even less. That's the equivalent of saying that someone destroying a multiverse makes them High 1-B, because there is SOMEONE out there saying that the multiverse could have infinite dimensions."

And just saying: "Learn some physics." Isn't adressing my point, you're deflecting. Ad Hominem. If you want to bring up fallacies.

Also, you're strawmanning the low 2-C Touhou, that was never my objective, my Objective was to Upgrade Touhou, not specifcally low 2-C. And did you not just conceed to 3-A?

You also conceded that the Sources provided were Scientific, which is conceding that the sources were true (Not the POINT but the Sources themselves.). Marible said Gensokyo itself is a Quantum World, and the Sources provided say that a Quantum world is Possibly infinite dimensional, along with the condeding of it being a Brane world, which you again agreed was at least 4-D, but what if it isn't 4-D? What if it is higher? It's already conceded that it's a Brane world and it is specifically described as a Quantum world, so what if it is higher then 4-D, what then?

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, I don't know anyone from Umineko who is High 3-A or 3-A in general, they just seem to leap from 9-A to 1-C

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Komachi doing a High 3-A isn't comparable to the level you're trying to put everyone else at. And yes, a feat can happen far more than just 2 times and still be an outlier.

Why would I need to address Gensokyo being called a "Quantum World"? It means nothing feats-wise. Also, if you're using out-of-context scientific scans while visibly not understanding them, I have all the rights to call you on it.

Doesn't matter if it's Low 2-C or High 3-A. Both are wrong. And that's honestly the only way you could upgrade the verse with what you're arguing.

3-A was never even brought up here. Unless you meant High 3-A, in which case no, I didn't concede. It's just that you kept debating like High 3-A was legit.

You're putting words in my mouth. This is an extremely out-of-context scan of people highlighting "infinite dimensional" and "quantum space" to prove a point. Which is not enough. Especially these usually refer to Hilbert Spaces, which aren't actual, physical things in a world with Quantum Mechanics.

 

[Udlmaster]

And again, haven't touched SCP 1831, even though I've brought it up in nearly all my posts since I've brough them up.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Did you not see me & Kalt pretty much telling you that it's a false equivalency and that this is not how our system work? And if you're not satisfied with it, you should take it up somewhere else?

4-D on a non-universal scale: Not High 3-A, given that way too many characters would be High 3-A for manipulating space-time on a low scale. And Yukari is not different at all here.

This doesn't apply to stuff with more than 4D, given that it's rare for characters to have hax that specifically only affected 5-D or higher.

It also doesn't matter anyway. No SCP is scaled directly to the thing.

 

[Userx69x]

Your basic claim is usually dismissing a lot of things as an essential outlier without further elaboration on why the aforementioned would essentially be an outlier. Looking at perfect memento in strict sense yukari can casually destroy existence but yet it's foreshadowed as something not applicable why? Yukari doing this would logically be low 2-C, and at best high 1-C but let's not get too hasty here. I've heard you are a rather aggressive debator so I'm going to take this as a calm approach as possible. You need to elaborate on why it's an outlier rather than blatantly claim it and considering that the series morely revolves around the concept of spell card rules, this would morely mean that the characters are holding back due to abiding the said concepts of these initial rules thus allowing the series not to be prone to too many outliers. With logical scaling other characters will have to become low 2-C to yukari considering I really don't see anything contradicting the afromentioned tier. On a personal standpoint I have her much higher. Not 1-A standards but possibly high 1-C. Though it'd be a bit too high. So essentially what im asking here is how are yukari's feat outliers. Elaborate.

 

[First_Witch]

Also, I don't know anyone from Umineko who is High 3-A or 3-A in general, they just seem to leap from 9-A to 1-C

Thing is, Most Umineko character arent 9-A to begin with. Those are nothing more then shadows thrown down from a higher existence so bringing that verse up to debunk Saikus outlier argument wont do much.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't really need to elaborate the fact that Yukari, a mid-tier in the verse as a whole, having a feat literally more than infinitely above that of people who should fodderzing people who should fodderize Yukari to not be consistent with the rest of the verse, let alone the fact that even people around her level (The top tiers of Gensokyo) have much lower feats usually. Especially since this being an outlier is one of my lesser argument compared to the fact that none of those feats are legit.

Characters holding back =/= suddenly there is no more outliers.

Akyuu also never states that Yukari can bust all of reality. She mentioned that the world without boundaries would just be one massive object without any distinction. Which is true, but doesn't mean Yukari can snap her fingers and make everything one solid object. It just means that Yukari has control over something primordial for the world. That's like someone describing Nuclear Power as the "power of the stars". It doesn't make Nuclear Power 4-C or 4-A. Or even High 6-A even,

 

[Userx69x]

You failed to substantiate that argument. If basic scaling needs to be implanted then implement it such as her scaling to the watatsuki sisters. Her being a mid tier would only allow for more upgrades to be implanted then obviously. I don't see why you are absolutely refusing to actually take into consideration of how basic scaling and outlier actually works saikou. People essentially can't be around her level and all of a sudden have lower feats, you yourself aren't logically even making sense any more. If they were stated to be stronger then this obviously scales to a low 2-C degree saikou, this is basic commen sense. This being an outlier is you main argument. My friends have been linking me threads, and you've essentially been claiming majority of the feats as outliers without further elaboration. In this point you failed to elaborate who exactly are the people you are talking about and you yet again failed to go over why this is a logical outlier. So get to it


"Characters holding back =/= suddenly there is no more outliers."

Such strawman, when did I make this claim? I'm saying that the verse mostly revolves around characters who are holding back on the majority of occasions, what essentially disproves a low 2-C feat. "Akyuu also never states that Yukari can bust all of reality. She mentioned that the world without boundaries would just be one massive object without any distinction. Which is true, but doesn't mean Yukari can snap her fingers and make everything one solid object. It just means that Yukari has control over something primordial for the world." It seems like someone didn't read perfect memento of strict sense.

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Perfect_Memento_in_Strict_Sense/Yukari_Yakumo " The ability to manipulate boundaries is a terrifying ability capable of fundamentally undermining reality." in case you don't know what undermine means

lessen the effectiveness, power, or ability of, especially gradually or insidiously.

"this could undermine years of hard work"

synonyms: subvert, sabotage, threaten, weaken, compromise, diminish, reduce, impair, mar, spoil, ruin, impede, hinder, damage, hurt, injure, cripple, disable, enfeeble, sap, shake; More

To diminish or destroy a reality is logically a low 2-C feat. Yukari not being able to do it instantly isn't a logical claim considering the fact that people like dimentio posed a threat to the Mario multiverse but doesn't serve as a proper indication on how long he would destroy it. He gets his tier because he has the potential to destroy it, and yukari here has the potential to undermine reality and make it one big object. The fact that she has the feat regardless would constitute this tier. Do not insinuate that again, you do realize the numerous characters you downplayed by just saying that right.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I've just given you reasons why this is an outlier. If you have a bunch of characters whose best feats are planetary and stellar in scope, including the god tiers far above said character, and then suddenly a character out of this bunch has sudden multiverse-transcending feats, I think that this fits the definition of an outlier well enough.

You're basically claiming that people scaling to Yukari means that it's not an outlier if she does something outlandish. Which is not how outlier works.

If your argument against outliers in the verse is "SCR means they're holding back", then I feel like my description is rather accurate. Especially since Yukari has a set and solid position within the verse, with people both being weaker, equal and stronger to her. She's not a wildcard above everyone that can have any feats without this being contradictory.

Another problem of your people, not everything is literal. One can undermine something without destroying all of it in a single shot. Hell you could rate most Reality Warpers as being able to "undermine" reality without them being Tier 3 or 2. If you actually read that part, this statement is just a way of showing how much Boundary Manip can affect, since everything has a boundary and stuff. It's able to "undermine reality" because most of reality is made out of boundaries. And nothing indicates she could destroy all boundaries at once. It's different from stuff like Dimentio, who has been explicitly stated to be able to destroy reality, not just affect key components of it.

 

[Userx69x]

The feats that the character has done doesn't serve as an essential contradiction to what the character can do. Whether sudden or not, it still counts, it's absolutely unknown whether they did these feats casually or not, and knowing the person yukari is, she usually does her feats casually. If she required energy to do a star level feat then I would essentially agree with you, but you provided nothing that serve as a logic counter to this. An outlier is a contradiction, absolutely nothing contradicts this feat. If you're going to say most of her feats are only star level (which they aren't) then I guess goku isn't universal considering majority of his feats range in the planetary department. Stop with the strawman. This feat isn't outlandish at all considering nothing contradicts it, has she struggled doing feats lower than universal+, if she has then I will concede, if she does it casually then it isn't an outlier.You obviously don't understand how outlier works.

I didn't say she was a wild card, stop strawmanning me. My claim was to insinuate that the verse isn't prone to outliers. People being stronger than her makes them universal+ as well and people being weaker would make them well….not universal+ :v. Nothing contradicts the feat.


Undermining =/= warping. What the hell, undermining is literally DESTROYING something and diminishing it. Warping reality is just messing with it so a useless association fallacy on your part. If yukari manipulating boundaries can reach to undermining reality levels, then its' universal+. And again to reiterate, the following would still fall under the latter of universal+


Do I need to implant this? Undermine is diminishing or damaging something aka destroying something and no according to you, yukari not being able to do it in one blow despite nothing being able to state that would mean dimentio is not multiversal due to him not being mentioned to destroy it one blow. Both have statements of destroying a certain thing and both are unspecific on the time frame. Why is the bias correlated to the other.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Saikou makes very solid rational sense above, to the degree that I might nominate him as a potential administrator again.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

New Admin candidate hype??

 

[Antvasima]

Possibly, but I am not promising anything. It is not remotely up to me alone.

 

[Udlmaster]

So...the actual Point of the chat?

 

[ALRF]

Using Dimentio as an exemple is wrong though.

Dimension himself states that he is going to destroy all the worlds and create new ones. Far better statement than just one simple sentence about Yukari being vaguely implied to destroy reality with her hax.

And that japanese statement is badly translated anyhow since there's no kanji for reality.

 

[Userx69x]

Using dimentio isn't wrong at all

Dimentio stated that he was going to destroy all of existence but in accordance to saikou at this very moment, the time frame in which he would've done this is unsubstantiated which is the argument saikou is using for yukari.

It being badly translated isn't a proper justification. Unless you can give me Japanese, then I'd rather believe something that has actually been translated.

 

[ALRF]

Except he also stated that he will create new worlds? Much more accurate than a statement saying Yukari will do "x" in an unspecified way.

Kanji for reality is Õ«ƒ and you don't see it in that particular segment so yeah.

 

[Userx69x]

You still fail to understand the basis. Saikou is arguing a time frame in which the essential feat can be done. Dimentio doesn't have a time frame on his feats but yet he gets his rating justified while yukari does not, this shows the clear bias.

Again translate the page yourself or I can look over this.

 

[ALRF]

Replace reality with " all things" and here's the perfect TL

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's not just a matter of timeframe. Yukari was never stated to be able to destroy all things. None of what Akyuu says explicitly mentions that she could do it. She was just describing the potential applications of her powers.

Refer to my previous metaphor about Stars and nuclear energy. You can manipulate Nuclear Energy without being able to create stars; you can manipulate boundaries without being able to destroy all of reality.

 

[Userx69x]

She was stated to be able to undermine reality though. There isn't a need of specifying considering we already know what reality means. And no again you essentially argued for the fact that she cant do it in one go. With this logic I can downplay dimentio.

A terrible analogy and an association fallacy. Manipulating something is totally different from undermining it. Look up undermine when while you are at it. Akyuu literally said all of reality would be one big object if yukari was to do this and it was also stated of undermining reality itself. Clear destructive potency.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Undermining reality =/= destroying it all. I've been over this. That's just a fancy way to say she can warp reality.

You can warp/undermine parts of reality without having the power to blow all of it up. You cannot destroy all of reality... and at the same time be unable to destroy it.

If you want to go all semantics, I can pull this description: "to weaken or cause to collapse by removing underlying support, as by digging away or eroding the foundation". Which is the most logical option in this context: Yukari weakening/warping reality by affecting its boundaries. It doesn't have to be destroying all of it. Hell, it could have been "destroying reality" without meaning ALL of reality (Destroying parts of reality for example).

She didn't. She said that a world without boundaries would be one big object. She is stating in no way that it's something Yukari can do.

 

[Userx69x]

You yet again fail to elaborate properly on your claim rather you argued to your own subjective belief. Undermine means destroy and im sure if anyone can undermine reality, that would logically grant a low 2-C feat

Again warp =/= undermine. Warping is essentially twisting or messing with something. Undermining is actually destroying something. Stop treating them as synonymous for your own subjective claim when we are looking at the objectivity of the scenario right now.

Actually no its synonymous to destroying: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/undermine

Not destroying all of it is NOT a justification to the aforementioned claim. She is literally undermining it, there have been no logical statements within the profile that can prove its not all, as a matter of fact the profile emphasizes that if she were to use this to her extent, she can make reality just an object which at bare minimu is universal+, stop arguing for your own subjective premise

The article is about yukari herself, you don't logically write an article and then all fo sudden not elaborate on the character. This was obviously something yukari can do, stop nitpicking.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Saikou makes sense. Perhaps we should close this thread, as it seems to go around in circles?

 

[Udlmaster]

I'd rather it not, not until we have a concrete conclusion, closing it prematurely is a terrible mistake in my eyes. Because if an argument cannot be argued then it becomes the victory in a debate, and I want this to have a proper conlcusion not just be closed for such a minor reason when it could have major effects on a verse.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Udlmaster]

Thanks Antvasima.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You're the one assuming that Undermine in this context means "entirely destroying" when it's not something that's actually hinted anywhere in the text.

I don't see how "Warping" would be less on a global scale than "Undermine". Your line of reasoning "Undermine = destroying everything" could be used just as well to justify any reality warping as Low 2-C: "Warping = affecting everything".

And as I've said, even if the statement was that Yukari's power can "destroy" reality, it wouldn't be Low 2-C unless we have reasons to believe that Akyuu refers to all of reality. Which we don't have.

Akyuu was talking about boundaries and how the power of affecting them was a strong one. I could say that, say, Nails holds most of our buildings together and that without nails, most of our buildings would collapse. But that doesn't mean that someone who can manipulate Nails can make every building in the world collapse. This statement is just there to show the vast amount of things she can affect.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Wave Functions = Infinite D is a big no and a big ass middle finger to logic.

Are you implying that a hydrogen atom isn't one of the strongest High 1-B characters in reality or fiction?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Also hardly any of this matters, as I've said before.

None of the High 3-A and Low 2-C feats from other characters are legit, which means that even if this statement was accepted, we would have a sudden 3-A to High 1-C feat out of nowhere in a verse full of 5-A to 4-A at best, which would be a horrible outlier and would be inconsistent with the fact that Yukari's scope is generally limited to Gensokyo. If she could snap her fingers and bust everything, she certainly wouldn't be bothered by something like the Netherworld border being weakened or anything else in the verse, really.

@Azzy Ah, so that's why Grizzly Bear used to be High 1-B. I get it.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we should probably close this thread. The raised questions have been sufficiently dealt with.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Honestly yeah. 99% of these have been addressed and knowing the kind of people I'm up too, I doubt they will concede any time soon. Especially since a lot of arguments tend to go against the system itself rather than the profile (Talking about the High 3-A stuff).