Possible Upgrades? (Questionable)

[Udlmaster]

I've come across this multiple times, but never have I seen any proof of it, so while I continue to search for Gensokyo being stated as a Brane world, I wanted to bring attention to this:

https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/7c1jda/gensokyo_is_not_a_pocket_dimension/


If any of this is true, what do you think of it?

I ask Admins do not close this thread too quickly, as I would like some time to expand on it while I get more community support for it.

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay, so Far I've found this for: "Brane World"

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Touhou_Hisoutensoku/Spell_Cards/Sakuya_Izayoi#Skill_Card_1

 

[Udlmaster]

Oh wow, I've found something else as well!

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dr._Latency's_Freak_Report/Story

In this Maribel Specifically calles Gensokyo a: "Brane world"

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Am I legally allowed to punch people over the internet.

99.9999% of this post has been debunked over and over. Same G+ arguments from a bunch of cultist wankers who get 0.00001% of Quantum Mechanics.

tl;dr

Wave Functions = Infinite D is a big no and a big ass middle finger to logic.

Wave/Particle duality being just mentioned does not mean that Gensokyo is suddenly outside of the rest of the verse, especially when one of the main things that prove that the Touhouverse follows String Theory also includes Gensokyo as just another part of it. Especially since Waves and Particles aren't incompatible with String Theory.

Saying that a Brane World can be anywhere between 4-D and Infinite-D and using it as an argument is like saying that a planet can be anywhere between Earth-sized and the size of a galaxy to prove that a planet buster should be 3-C. It's dumb.

Different types of particles =/= Gensokyo itself being more than 4-D. At best it means Gensokyo is separated from the main world on a 7-D axis, but that's not AP feat.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Gensokyo being a Brane World has been accepted long ago, but it doesn't mean anything AP-wise when Gensokyo is small as a pebble compared to the universe.

 

[Udlmaster]

As I read and compare my notes, they seem to add up, that Gensokyo is a Brane world. While this may not apply to literally 90% of the Characters. It Does apply to the Sages of Gensokyo and the Lunarians. And Hecetia.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Like I said, Gensokyo being a brane world doesn't mean anything AP-wise, and every hax and range upgrades have been set in place already.

 

[Udlmaster]

However, Common sense was specifcally stated to not function in the same way in Gensokyo. And if what you said is true, then why is Yukari and the Other Sages High 4-C if Gensokyo is 4-D? Even if something is only "A pebble compared to the Universe" It's Still 4-D. Also, Marible Vists Gensokyo multiple times, so it would logically mean that she has a good idea of what it is (Most of all if Marible is Past Yukari.)

Also, I agree with you, I don't think Gensokyo is Infinite Dimensional. As the Gauge theory literally says there's Finite Dimensions: "In most gauge theories, the set of possible transformations of the abstract gauge basis at an individual point in space and time is a finite-dimensional Lie group."

"An element of the gauge group can be parameterized by a smoothly varying function from the points of spacetime to the (finite-dimensional) Lie group, such that the value of the function and its derivatives at each point represents the action of the gauge transformation on the fiber over that point."

 

[Udlmaster]

Furthermore, Yukari was stated to have both helped in Gensokyo's creation (Creating a 4-D Construct with 2+ Others) and stated to be able to destroy it and all beings inside of it, wouldn't that apply?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Not how it works. Something 4-D/Space-Time on a small scale isn't Low 2-C or even High 3-A. It's just hax. You need to be able to destroy space-time on a near-universal scale to be considered High 3-A. Which means that the only Otherworlds that would fit for Low 2-C/High 3-A haven't been confirmed to have been created by anyone (Paradise, Higan, possibly the Dream World).

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, Range Upgrade. Youmu's spellcard called: Hell Realm Sword "200 Yojana in One Slash" 200 * 15 = 3000km

Since 1 Yojana is 15 km.

Also, if I remember correctly, people have been given upgrades for destroying Dimesional Contructs before.

Also, isn't if something is 4-D, it is naturally Equated to Space-Time. Or Infinite 3-D?

 

[Udlmaster]

SCP 1831 is 1-C for being a 10-D construct?

SCP-1831 is a sentient ten-dimensional construct of indeterminate physicality that claims to be "Mr. Shapey, from Little Misters ® by Dr. Wondertainment.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

This only applies to 4-D stuff, given how often manipulating Space-Time on a smaller scale happens. The amount of people who would become High 3-A via this would be ridiculous if we let that happen. Space-Time IS 4D. And here, a braneworld is explicitly space-time, hence why it's treated as 4-D.

Youmu travels 200 Yojana via moving, so it's more like a low-end speed feat than range.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, shouldn't the Netherworld be considered in that list of "Low 2-C, High 3-A" since the Netherworld is connected to the Senzu River which can grow to Infinite size?

 

[Udlmaster]

Actually, nevermind, it's a two step process. They go through the Road of Liminality, cross over the Sanzu River, and receive the Yama's judgement. My mistake.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Netherworld isn't connected to the Sanzu River.

The Sanzu River is roughly part of Higan (Or at least, acts as the space between Gensokyo and Higan), which is itself connected indirectly to the Netherworld.

 

[Udlmaster]

I know, It was my mistake.

 

[JBennett]

I"m not supporting Infinite Dimensons Gensokyo but Gensokyo is not just a sections of the world sealed away but a piece of land that run parrarel(for a lack of a better term) with the Outside world. This is shown durning one of the fairies of light manga, don't remember which chapter it was but I'm pretty sure it's one of the Sangetsu?

This and the fact that Gesnokyo has different properties when compared to the Outside World suggestes that THe Yokai Sages actaully created Gensokyo, even if it was simply a replication on what the Outside World looked like at the time of The Barriers creation.

Even if this doesn't warrent a AP boost its still a major factor to take note.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

A "major factor" which is already taken into account, but doesn't really mean any upgrades.

 

[Udlmaster]

However, if Beings like SCP 1831 are classified as 1-C for being an 11-D construct, then that means that Gensokyo is Low 2-C for being a 4-D contruct, right? If a rule applies to one, shouldn't it apply to all?

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, is this bit true?: "But then, Yukari is implied to have manipulated the Boundary of Wave and Particles in Netherworld (but it's still sort of related to Gensokyo as it being separated by just a Boundary of Death and Alive isn't enough to separate the particles"

 

[Udlmaster]

Wave Functions = Infinite D is a big no and a big ass middle finger to logic.

Wave/Particle duality being just mentioned does not mean that Gensokyo is suddenly outside of the rest of the verse, especially when one of the main things that prove that the Touhouverse follows String Theory also includes Gensokyo as just another part of it. Especially since Waves and Particles aren't incompatible with String Theory.

They actually say that in the post: "If my interpretation is right,such duality shouldn't exist in String Theory as the presence of Wave and Particles contradicts the existence of strings. And It would correlate to Wave function as all the information about a particle is encoded in its wave functions"

 

[JBennett]

for the Wave and particles its more that a spell card that 'involve's Waves and Particles' was used in the Netherworld. It's debatable if she can actually manipulate them in the Netherworld but it's not conpleltly impossible considering the mecanecs of the Spell cards.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Again, not how it works. Space-Time on a scale lower than universal is treated as just hax. We have plenty of characters who can do the same as Yukari, yet aren't High 3-A or Low 2-C for it.

Besides, we tend to make a difference between BEING X-D and affecting something that is X-D.

It doesn't. The person who made that post visible has no idea what they're talking about. "If my interpretation is right" is no solid proof.

Yukari just used a spell card NAMED about Wave and Particles. Even if she did use it there, it wouldn't mean anything.

Also please, stop double/triple posting.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, SCP 1831 isn't a Being, that was my poor choice of words: It'a Sentient 10-D contruct. Like a Sentient House. But it is still a Construct, and is Classified as 1-C for just being 10-D. That's the only justification.

Also, ignoring the: "If my interpretation" what about the rest, because, ignoring that small part, you actually both agree that Wave-Particle Duality can't function in String Theory.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I don't though? I said that Wave/Particles doesn't contradict String Theory.

Even if it DID, it's more likely to be a goof from ZUN rather than Gensokyo somehow being a whole realm separated from existence. And even THEN, it wouldn't scale to Yukari, given that stuff like the Netherworld works like Gensokyo does, ergo Gensokyo doesn't embody a whole new dimensional system on its own.

 

[JBennett]

Gesnokyo doesn't run on logic though right? Besides isn't Gensokyo a Otherworld? so wouldn't that mean it's compleltly seperate from 'Reality'?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It doesn't really mean anything though. It still follows some laws of physics, there is just magic running around.

An otherworld is 4-D. What's being proposed in the OP is that Gensokyo is not only separate from the main 4-D Universe, but from the entirety of what's encompassed by String Theory, which is 11-D.

 

[JBennett]

Anyways, I personally don't want to apply logic to a world that is specifically desinged to not follow logic so I'm going to walk away from this. Regardless on how things end up I still will love the sereis, so I'm going to walk away.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

It's specifically designed to not follow common sense, not logic as a whole. Touhou clearly still follows some solid logic, it's just a logic that's different from our own. And concretely, it just means that we have Youkai and Magic now.

 

[Udlmaster]

Also, you didn't address SCP 1831.

They are a 10-D construct. And they are set at 1-C just for being a 10-D construct, we don't know it's size or shape, but it was still listed as 10-D for that, so don't you think a double standard is at play?

Destroying a 4-D World is still destroying a 4-D construct right? And by the same logic, Yukari actually created a 4-D construct with other beings, and was again, stated to be able to not only destroy said construct but every being inside of it, so it still is destroying a 4th Dimensional Reality, no matter the size. It's like saying that someone destroying a 4-D cube is only Street level because it was a cube. Problem is, it's still infinite 3-D, it's infinitely above 3-D beings, so destroying something 4-D should still be destroying something 4-D no matter the size. Now, I'm not saying Yukari should be Low Multiversal, but at most Universal+ on the grounds of destroying a 4-D construct, which again, by the Logic of the Wiki itself uses, being or being above X-D construct means that you are X-Dimensional. SCP-1831 is High Complex Multiverse level for being a 10-D contruct.

Also, the Neverwhere are also scaled to a "Countless" Dimensional Contruct, 4-D, 10-D, Countless-D, Size doesn't matter, it's the dimensions, and you already said it's atleast 4-D. Meaning it's a 4-D contruct in your own words, which Yukari has both created with 2+ others and is Stated by ZUN to be able to destroy.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Creating/destroying something 4-D of less than universal size is not Tier 2.

 

[Udlmaster]

Then what is it? And what about other Dimensional "things". Again, if Size does matter, even if it's 4-D (Infinite 3-D) then shouldn't all beings who are scaled using the same logic I am using be downgraded to "Unknown" or something similar?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Doesn't matter. 4-D stuff is usually hax because people hardly manipulate space-time through sheer power. It's hax, not AP. It's not something that applies to higher dimensions unless it's specifically stated to be hax.

Again, should people who manipulate space-time on the scale of, say, a house be High 3-A now? People creating a minuscule pocket dimension with time be High 3-A too? If we're going to throw a bone to Yukari just because you're not happy with this, we should do it for far more characters.

It's not something I just decided out of the blue, this is a wiki-wide standard. If you're gonna complain about it, that's not the place.

EDIT: Also, no SCP is directly scaled to the one you're mentioning. At best, they're scaling to all of reality, which would logically have 10-D due to this thing existing within it.

 

[Kaltias]

Destroying a minuscule 4-D construct isn't High 3-A, simply because otherwise literally everyone in fiction with space-time manipulation would be High 3-A.

Also comparing this to SCP is a giant false equivalence.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Even then, that'd probably be an outlier, considering that only three characters have shown the ability to create such a realm anyway:

-The Lunarians, which used tech most likely and are far above Gensokyo

-Yukari, via destroying Gensokyo

-Miko, via creating Senkai

 

[Udlmaster]

Okay, then what about Komachi is able to directly manipulate distance depending on the payment give, as the number reaches 0, Komachi increases the distance, 0 meaning infinite. And this was dismissed before as an Outlier. But, the 3-A feat of increasing Distance, directly and not eternity like Kaguya does. It is literal distance as her power discribes: "It is literally the ability to manipulate the space between her present location and the destination she's heading. She uses this ability to carry out her duty of ferrying spirits of the dead across the Sanzu River (although it is unknown whether other shinigamiferrymen also possess this power or not). This ability may be used to affect both literal distance (for example, changing the physical distance that exists between two points)"

And not just the distance but the Width of the River increases too: "Although Komachi's official profile in Phantasmagoria of Flower View says that the width of the Sanzu River changes depending on her mood (which is presumably dictating how she uses her power), it is also mentioned in parts of the game's dialog (especially between Eiki and Sakuya Izayoi) that the width of the river is at least partially dependent upon the actual ghost being ferried."

So, if Komachi has been stated to do this, we have the 3 sages Creating a 4-D construct At least. As a Brane world is anywhere from 4-D onwards, as you said Gensokyo being a Brane world was already accepted, meaning it is At least 4-D. And what about a Quantum world too?

"Those sights weren't just beautiful, but natural too.
They were all hidden in the invisible gaps of the quantum world."

For Context, She's talking about Gensokyo as proven here: "I saw a forest rich with diversity.
I saw a proud, holy mountain, shut off to creatures who preferred the lower ground.
I saw a deep lake covered in an arcane mist." And then she says: "Those sights weren't just beautiful, but natural too.
They were all hidden in the invisible gaps of the quantum world."

https://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Dr._Latency's_Freak_Report/Story

Which could mean again, more then just 4 Dimensions. In some cases, it could mean Infinite dimensions.

As these people put here: https://imgur.com/a/9eD6w https://imgur.com/a/qIEV9

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

You could have resumed these two entire paragraphs into a single sentence like "Komachi can make the distance of the Sanzu River infinite" and I would have understood just as well, if not more. And that's either just hax, or is the infinite 3-D kind of High 3-A, which doesn't help prove Low 2-C Touhou.

Good lord people, learn some physics. "Quantum World" means absolutely nothing, unless it's just a weird way of saying "A world which follows quantum mechanics", which means even less. That's the equivalent of saying that someone destroying a multiverse makes them High 1-B, because there is SOMEONE out there saying that the multiverse could have infinite dimensions. Your scans border on non-sequitur with how unrelated they are to your argument, and could be used to upgrade almost all of fictions which deals with a multiverse.

Seriously, you need more than CTRL+F-ing "Dimensions" and "Infinite" in a scientific paper to be able to understand quantum physics and use it to upgrade a verse.

And even THEN, we have the same thing with High 3-A not happening with Gensokyo or the fact that the verse being Infinite D wouldn't scale to someone destroying Gensokyo.

I'm this close to just asking for a Discussion Rule to be made against this topic with how much it's being brought up.

 

[JBennett]

Creating/destroying something 4-D of less than universal size is not Tier 2.

Tell that to umineko.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Pretty sure that no one in Umineko is High 3-A through destroying a small 4-D structure. Not even sure there is anyone who is High 3-A period in Umineko.