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Possible Star Wars Canon Combat Speed Downgrade

Drellix

Drellix

1,761
57
So I've been randomly going through Clone Wars scenes when I realized that there are extreme reasons why no force wielder should be Sub Rev or Rev in combat speed. Firstly, in Season 2 Hondo is shown to match Anakin in a fight. Season 3, Cad Bane was able to trade a couple blows with Obi Wan. Season 5, Pre Vizla was actually fighting on par with Darth Maul the whole time. I can pull these videos up if needed. And I can add to the list if given some time.

But I'm suggesting at least Subsonic combat speeds.
 
I will ask The Everlasting to check out this thread.
 
Was wondering when someone would bring this up. Never got around to doing it myself since I'm a lazy piece of shit.

I think the Maul vs Pre Vizsla thing can be explained by the former using only his natural attributes and skill and no Force shit so he could fight Vizsla fair & square and then claim the title of Mandalore legitimately. Can't explain the other stuff though. Perhaps a combat speed downgrade across the board might indeed be inevitable.

However, any Force adept of note I think should still possess MHS to MHS+ reflexes augmented by precognition per this and this and also this (this last one is relevant since Anakin has a feat where he dodged shots from a tank while running at full speed toward it).

So then:

Subsonic combat speeds with MHS/MHS+ reflexes augmented by precog?
 
@Blue: Right. I don't have a problem with the reaction speeds but the combat speed is just not fitting with some of the opponents they have fought. Like in Season 5, Maul went to try and persuade the Hutts to join him but the Hutts laughed and had the body guards fight them, in which they fought well against.
 
@Drellix

Not just that one. You have numerous instances in Disney canon of peak human characters giving Force adepts some trouble. Though it should be noted that Jedi policy of restraint does also play a part. We've seen Dark Side users stomp/blitz peak human characters numerous times. The best example is when Ventress sliced off the barrels of the DC-15S rifles of an entire squad of clone troopers before any of them could react. But I doubt that would be anything more than subsonic.
 
You still need to address this thread, and the statements that Chaos said here.

However, I will ask Chaos/Thanaos about it and see why their speeds are rated the way they are.

Btw thread highlighted.
 
Lina Shields said:
You still need to address this thread, and the statements that Chaos said here.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean by this. There's not really anything to address.
 
Hmmmm going by my knowledge in the Canon Star Wars lore, there has a lot of factors involving the speed feats. The scene in Star Wars Attack of the Clones show the Jedi along with Mace Windu being overwhelmed due to droids in sheer numbers comes to mind though I think that is because a lot of them were Jedi Knights and some of them were Jedi Masters (Obi Wan, Mace Windu, Aayla Secura, and a few more to be precise).
 
Soldier Blue said:
Was wondering when someone would bring this up. Never got around to doing it myself since I'm a lazy piece of shit.
I think the Maul vs Pre Vizsla thing can be explained by the former using only his natural attributes and skill and no Force shit so he could fight Vizsla fair & square and then claim the title of Mandalore legitimately. Can't explain the other stuff though. Perhaps a combat speed downgrade across the board might indeed be inevitable.

However, any Force adept of note I think should still possess MHS to MHS+ reflexes augmented by precognition per this and this and also this (this last one is relevant since Anakin has a feat where he dodged shots from a tank while running at full speed toward it).

So then:

Subsonic combat speeds with MHS/MHS+ reflexes augmented by precog?
Click to expand...
Alright so this one is based on this calc. The second link is fine, but I don't know about scaling the first link to the second one.

This feat is just completely wrong. Scaling blaster speed to ship blaster speeds in this instance seems fine. However the calc for the dogfight seems like a huge outlier considering that the moving dot we see is the only moving dot, which would imply the rest of the fight is slow enough that their movements barely register.

On top of that in the same episode being used to scale blaster speed to ship blaster speed we see humans reacting to and participating in battles just fine, despite no enhanced reflexes. Both on ground and in space.

This one is fine though.
 
Well, I cannot force the staff members to participate, and am too tired in general, and know too little about the topic to make a proper judgement myself. Regrettably, sometimes threads do not lead anywhere, depending on how much time that the staff has available.
 
I see. Understandable. The reason I bumped this thread was because I saw that it was unlocked and there was no consensus.
 
I have asked The Everlasting to take a look, but again, I cannot force him to reply.
 
As for why the downgrade may work, check this video out.

If both Yoda and Palpatine were truly fighting at Sub-Relativistic speeds, we would literally see the "roof" and the platform move at a complete standstill due to the perception of time moving incredibly slow on the part of Yoda/Sidious. However, we see the platform rise at regular time.

Also, if the Jedi/Sith were actually fighting at Sub-Relativistic speeds, everything else would literally be at a complete standstill unless the other characters can move at comparable speeds too.
 
@Lina

That's a matter of cinematic convenience. If every fight were truly portrayed at the speed it was happening at, none of the background would ever move and it would look fairly boring. We can apply this logic to any fiction, not just Star Wars.
 
@Lina: I'm going with Everlasting on this one. That's not really a good argument for this.

But again, if more evidence is needed for this to go through, I am willing to provide as much as possible.
 
Agree with Ever. Also, the rest just seems like PIS to me honestly. Disregarding any superhuman feats just because of that seems way too much.
 
@Saikou The Lewd King

Nobody is saying that Force adepts in Disney Star Wars are not superhuman. They definitely are and with a plethora of impressive superhuman feats even in the films and Disney canon cartoons which are quite underpowered when compared to even the Disney canon novels and comics. We're just saying that they're not relativistic or even sub-relativistic.
 
I think that if the Jedi have been calculated at relativistic combat speeds, then the contradictions may simply be inconsistencies common to any fiction.
 
@Blue No, but you attempt to discredit their highest feats just because they fight lower opponents. I don't see how Subsonic makes more sense here.
 
I merely suggested Subsonic combat speeds with MHS+ reflexes augmented by precog and even framed the suggestion in the form of a question. I'm not pushing for it or anything. Just want more clarity here that's all.
 
Yeah but why do you think Sub-Relativistic isn't reasonable? I frankly don't follow your train of thought here.
 
Well even though I have don't exactly have a say in this matter. I do have something I want to let out for quite awhile though it is unrelated. One of the most profound memories I have will be the Qui-Gon and Obi Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul in the Battle of Naboo in Star War Phantom Menace. A memory I came to cherish when I was a child.

While I have no feelings about this, I think we shouldn't downplay nor wank about the Jedi Council as I have to be honest here. For the most part in the movies, they were deeply involved in a war between the Republic and the Trade Federation due to them following their sense of duty as they have multiple task to deal with. They might have figure out who was the Sith lord earlier which it was Darth Sidious or whether name you prefer to use for him if it wasn't for the war itself and peacekeeping role.

On the other hand, I will give some due credit for Darth Sidious as he was the mastermind of the Clone Wars and manipulated events to his advantage while at the same time mask his identity and presence in the Force. Of course if I saw a guy like him, it should have raise several red flags due to his nature of being a power hungry individual and a backstabber who use any means to gain power. He is the pupil of the late Darth Plagueis who was backstabbed by Darth Sidious all for the sake of power.

Anyway I can not take sides nor I can pick a side so I think a acceptable compromise should be reached in this case.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Yeah but why do you think Sub-Relativistic isn't reasonable? I frankly don't follow your train of thought here.
Click to expand...
I actually don't think it is too unreasonable. That suggestion was something that arose based on what I read in the OP and based on Drellix's train of thought in addition to my own input.

Sorry for the confusion. Sometimes, in discussions such as this, I end up with one foot on each side and thus end up confusin others. It's sort of a bad habit of mine.
 
Well like I said before, just putting away Sub-Relat for no reasons except that they fight lower opponents isn't good at all, so I'm against this downgrade.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Well like I said before, just putting away Sub-Relat for no reasons except that they fight lower opponents isn't good at all, so I'm against this downgrade.
Click to expand...
There are more reasons for them to be much lower than Sub Rev than there are for them to be sub rev. We have, what, one quote from the RotS novel (We're not even sure if that's canon because it's never mentioned) that gives them Sub Rev combat speed In a Star Fighter. I have given more evidence of them getting matched by multiple non force users. Take Grievous for example. He fights evenly with Jedi but gets beat by Gungans. You can't tell me those Gungans are Sub Rev. You can't tell me them throwing there staves and electro balls is Sub Rev. I don't understand how you can just wave it off as PIS if it happens consistently. Not once, not twice, not even five times. It has happened a multitude of times like with Anakin vs Hondo, Anakin getting out paced by Rako Hardeen, General Grievous getting bested by Gungans. Like I said, I can get more if needed.
 
That is interesting to note that, @Drellix. However the ROTS novel stands for Revenge of the Sith so it is canon, but which canon is it. Also it depend on what time was the novel was released as well.

Edit: It seems it was under the EU so yeah not canon at all.
 
I have to say that even though the Sub-Rel feats do exist that doesn't mean they aren't outliers. The Jedi get cornered/threatened by droids and such far too often, and while "Peak Human" is clearly downplay I'd be hard pressed to find Sub-Rel as legitimate consistency.
 
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