Star Wars and a Revision About The Force

[LordTracer]

I also wanted to add that we probably need to remove EU Windu's scaling to Sidious or change how we word it. He was amped to a much greater degree of Vapaad during that fight than any other time before due to his fractured mental state.

Canon Windu keeps the scaling though.

Agreed. Without Vaapad, Windu is more-or-less on the level of Obi-Wan and below RotS Anakin.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yeah that’s what we’re going with on By’s revision

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine then.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I'm not very well versed in EU, but I trust Qaw's assessment.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[chosen]

I also wanted to add that we probably need to remove EU Windu's scaling to Sidious or change how we word it. He was amped to a much greater degree of Vapaad during that fight than any other time before due to his fractured mental state.

Canon Windu keeps the scaling though.

Wasn't he also amped by it when dooku fought him
Same dooku who fought yoda twice?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wasn't he also amped by it when dooku fought him

Vapaad per the novel is a reactive power boost

Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center -- and let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt. There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But -- neither did he have power over it. Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue."

Vapaad when Mace fully mastered it allowed him to match Sidious' strength because it was basically just looping his power back at him. Mace wouldn't be as strong, and wasn't as strong, when he fought Dooku or his former allies with the technique.

Same dooku who fought yoda twice?

The first time Dooku ran away and the second time while Dooku was amped by a darkside nexus and Yoda was hindered he was still beaten rather definitively. Scaling him to a full power Yoda or Sidious is very questionable.

 

[chosen]

A

Vapaad per the novel is a reactive power

Ah i c

Vapaad when Mace fully mastered it allowed him to match Sidious' strength because it was basically just looping his power back at him. Mace wouldn't be as strong, and wasn't as strong, when he fought Dooku or his former allies with the technique.

Hm so windu is almost every time amped

The first time Dooku ran away and the second time while Dooku was amped by a darkside nexus and Yoda was hindered he was still beaten rather definitively. Scaling him to a full power Yoda or Sidious is very questionable.

Dooku ran away yeah but he still had overall an close Fight
Also he was amped in the comic?
I don't remember that unless dooku and yoda rematch ed another time

 

[Qawsedf234]

don't remember that unless dooku and yoda rematch ed another time

They fought in Dark Rendezvous

 

[chosen]

They fought in Dark Rendezvous

Ah so yeah were talking about an different Fight
I was talking about this first scan

 

[Antvasima]

Qawsedf's suggestions can probably be applied.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Ah so yeah were talking about an different Fight
I was talking about this first scan

That first scan only shows part of the fight and not the entire fight period.

 

[Antvasima]

Qawsedf's suggestions can probably be applied.

Is somebody willing to handle this, and is there anything left to do here afterwards?

 

[chosen]

That first scan only shows part of the fight and not the entire fight period.

Meh could have looked for the whole comic Fight but didn't bother
Him clashing anf dameging yoda should be enough

 

[aeneax]

The first time Dooku ran away and the second time while Dooku was amped by a darkside nexus and Yoda was hindered he was still beaten rather definitively. Scaling him to a full power Yoda or Sidious is very questionable.

They're equals in the Force and Yoda is the better duelist, so Dooku retreating shouldn't affect his parity with Yoda when it comes to Force power. Lucas supports AOTC Dooku = AOTC Yoda, which EU sources repeat a lot.

Yoda uses the Vjun nexus against Dooku, too. Early in the novel, Scout, Malreux and Anakin are all seen using the nexus' power to boost themselves.

I also wanted to add that we probably need to remove EU Windu's scaling to Sidious or change how we word it. He was amped to a much greater degree of Vapaad during that fight than any other time before due to his fractured mental state.

Lucas did line-edit and approve the ROTS novel, so it shouldn't be much of a problem to apply the context of the novel. Gillard also states that Palpatine could've beaten Mace if he really wanted to.

Vapaad when Mace fully mastered it allowed him to match Sidious' strength because it was basically just looping his power back at him. Mace wouldn't be as strong, and wasn't as strong, when he fought Dooku or his former allies with the technique.

It's noted that Mace had already mastered Vaapad by 22BBY, in the novel Shatterpoint. Vaapad also proves ineffective four out of the five times Mace fights a dark sider. So the difference here should be that Sidious is more prone to be haxxed by Vaapad due to his far more aggressive nature.

 

[Qawsedf234]

They're equals in the Force and Yoda is the better duelist

I wouldn't say they're equals when Yoda is a match for Palpatine who's notably above Dooku. The idea that they're direct equals also doesn't work when Anakin can't see Sidious' combat speed but Yoda is able to fight him evenly for a rather long period of time.

 

[chosen]

I wouldn't say they're equals when Yoda is a match for Palpatine who's notably above Dooku. The idea that they're direct equals also doesn't work when Anakin can't see Sidious' combat speed but Yoda is able to fight him evenly for a rather long period of time.

Meh sw sounds Like an inconsistency when dooku clearly keep up with yoda
The fact there are 25 scans that calls anakin strongest jedi kinda supports this idea

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Anakin canonically 4-A in both Disney and Legends

 

[Antvasima]

Qawsedf's suggestions can probably be applied.

Is somebody willing to handle this, and is there anything left to do here afterwards?

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I believe ByAsura (I think?) will make a Legends revision thread soon, while Canon has been completed unless someone has new stuff to bring up.

 

[aeneax]

I wouldn't say they're equals when Yoda is a match for Palpatine who's notably above Dooku. The idea that they're direct equals also doesn't work when Anakin can't see Sidious' combat speed but Yoda is able to fight him evenly for a rather long period of time.

Palpatine is above both Yoda and Dooku, but not by much. I guess going by the wiki's standard, it would mean they share the same tier. Anakin not perceiving them might be related to the state they're in (superconducting loop of the dark side) and not necessarily power or lack of perception. When you get to that high level of fighting, you actually don't have to see them with your eyes, you can fight them via sensing/instinct. The novel explicitly notes that Anakin can sense both of them fighting and Anakin have more C and G-canon accolades over Yoda and Mace than they have over him from more important and varied sources, including one saying that Anakin is faster and stronger in that same novel.

Anakin also does this to Mace:


In the novel alone you have:

Anakin stated to be the fastest and strongest Jedi at the beginning, as well as the "best at what he does."

Both Dooku (fought a full power Yoda twice, arguably thrice) and Sidious agree that Anakin is > Yoda and Mace before the duel on the Invisible Hand.

Palpatine tells the Council that Anakin only managed to kill Dooku because Dooku got overconfident and lowered his guard. Despite Anakin being severely downplayed by Sidious in this situation, Mace believes that Anakin fluking Dooku is enough to potentially make him more powerful than every Jedi alive, and no one present, Yoda included, disagrees with him.

Kolar believes that Anakin is the Jedi's best hope to survive an encounter with the other Sith Lord, not Yoda or Mace.

 

[Antvasima]

I believe ByAsura (I think?) will make a Legends revision thread soon, while Canon has been completed unless someone has new stuff to bring up.

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

 

[ByAsura]

As I said before, the Legends CRT will include varies tiers in it.

I think closing this might be best for now.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so then.