Star Wars and a Revision About The Force

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense to me as well.

@Soldier_Blue @Js250476 @CinnabarManx421 @SinsofMan @SheevShezarrine @Edenstar @ArgosaxDespair @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan

What do you think about this?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I agree completely

 

[DaReaperMan]

We really need to do something about Star Wars as a whole. Perhaps a Discord servers so we can properly discuss this?

... give me a few minutes.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Discord - Group Chat That’s All Fun & Games

Discord is great for playing games and chilling with friends, or even building a worldwide community. Customize your own space to talk, play, and hang out.

discord.gg

Star Wars Discord. Any takers?

 

[Hellbeast]

Reaper out here carrying the Wiki with his Discord servers

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Seems fine for canon in a first glance but I disagree with it being applied to Legends
Better consult Asura tho, he's the one responsible for the canon revision

 

[Hellbeast]

IDK I think we have clear instances for Legends

 

[HammerStrikes219]

IDK I think we have clear instances for Legends

Like how many instances is there exactly?

Since we talking about Legends, we gonna need to list some fine examples of that tbh.

 

[Hellbeast]

I can tell you right now Anakin was conflicted during Mustafar which likely impacted the fight with Kenobi and there's all the times we see characters empowered or handicapped by Force Nexus(us). I'm definitely

I'll see if I can find some more concrete examples tho

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

the easiest solution is to just scale force users to the feats they consistently perform and highlight the ones that are much stronger than the rest as separate from what they normally do via more concentration amp ect.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

the easiest solution is to just scale force users to the feats they consistently perform and highlight the ones that are much stronger than the rest as separate from what they normally do via more concentration amp ect.

Best course of action, I'd say

 

[aeneax]

the easiest solution is to just scale force users to the feats they consistently perform and highlight the ones that are much stronger than the rest as separate from what they normally do via more concentration amp ect.

This is the best solution in my opinion. Something like: At least X level to establish the bare minimum they can do, possibly/likely far higher or 'higher with a good state of mind/preparation' to put feats that are above what the character can normally do or that were performed in dubious circumstances, or that require preparation time or better concentration.

Obi-Wan achieving a buddha state of mind against MFV is a good example. Jacen's god-like Oneness. Luke's SSJ modes, etc.
--
Sorry for the long post. Consider this a mid-sized rant.

This is a case against it being implemented for Legends. I'm neutral on it being implemented on canon. I have nothing against it being implemented for canon because the gaps are very small, allowing it to be credible enough.

We have to differentiate mediums before anything. TCW does that on purpose. George instructed Filoni to make Force users weaker when compared to the old Clone Wars series. That's simply why they are weaker.

Arguments about places of power (only when the narrative suggests a nexus) or mental state work pretty well in the great picture of Legends, but TCW does this on purpose. They want Force users to struggle against normal characters, and a lot of authors share the same idea, such as Karen Traviss. I believe Filoni even stated that Dooku, without his lightsaber, could only defeat around fifteen pirates before going to heck.

Compare that to this:

or this:

Palpatine doesn't believe that the entire CIS army plus Grievous can even stand a chance against Anakin or Dooku. Are all of these characters nerfing themselves to the point where they are either as weak as a normal human or as strong as an army on purpose? Even when the narrative never suggests that? Or are the authors just having different interpretations of different things?

You either have a weak or strong character when it comes to Legends. Trying to find a middle ground will not appease either side because you're essentially saying that a character jumps from human level to continental level as they wish. Places of power are only relevant when a source (IU or OOU) states that said place is strong in the Force. Their mental state is only relevant when the narrative subtextually or directly affirms/implies it.

Boba Fett is an example a lot of people use. Because pressing post-ROTS Obi-Wan, challenging near ROTS Mace Windu, defeating Rahm Kota, fighting Darth Vader (by Vader’s own admission and statements, Boba Fett actually pulls out the win) and being capable of killing Caedus are all definitely the deeds of a very weak fighter who only wins because the opponent allows him to win. Let's forget about Fett's grip strength being enough to hold onto a ship flying full speed in the vacuum of space, him stomping two early-Starkiller level opponents while injured, him drawing his blaster faster than ROTJ Luke could react and Jaina going directly to him for advice on how to kill Caedus.

Jango defeating Komari Vosa, someone who can mind-dominate millions of people (requires one of the largest gaps in the mythos) and reanimate corpses. Jango pressing Obi-Wan so hard, the latter even acknowledges the entire situation almost turned into a complete disaster for him.

Mace acknowledging that Jango can cream him in a second.

"Jango Fett bristles with weapons. An instinctive killer: the deadliest man in the galaxy. Jango can kill me in less than a second. I know it. Even if I had never seen Kenobi's report from Kamino, I can feel the violence Jango radiates: in the Force, a pulsar of death."

Screenplay:

Finally, FETT is free and kills the REEK. MACE WINDU fights fiercely with JANGO FETT. Finally, the bounty hunter falls. His helmet goes flying. The bounty hunter's body falls to the ground.

Novel:

He was stopped by the reek. Unable to distinguish friend from foe, the reek bore down on Jango. He scored a couple of hits, but they hardly slowed the beast, and he was tossed away. The reek charged him, trying to stomp him as he rolled about desperately. Jango was fast, though. Every time he came around, he fired again, and again, his bolts burrowing into the furious reek's belly.

Finally, the huge bullish creature swayed, and Jango wisely rolled out the far side, opposite Mace, as the beast collapsed.The Jedi was on him immediately, lightsaber weaving through the air. Jango dodged and lifted into the air with his rockets, trying to keep one step ahead of that deadly blade and to occasionally fire a bolt at Mace.

The man was good, Mace had to admit. Very good, and more than once the Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside. He kept up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts.

One misstep...And then it happened, all of a sudden. Mace started to slash to the left, cut it short and stabbed straight out, then reversed his grip and sent the lightsaber slashing across, left to right. He spun a complete circuit, coming around to parry a blaster shot, but there was no shot forthcoming.That left to right reversal had cleanly landed. Jango Fett's head flew free of his shoulders and fell out of his helmet, to settle in the dirt.

No character ever thinks "well, I wasn't at full power so it's ok," everyone that fought Jango/Boba acknowledges one of two things: that they lost or that it was a close call. The rest can't say anything because they're dead. Boba and Jango performing on the same level across various authors and mediums, which is a miracle in and of itself for a Legends character. So, are Boba and Jango only doing this because these Force users allowing themselves to be beaten to death, or are Boba and Jango good enough to do those things with their own strength?

It's not that rickety 12 foot ladder the wiki's standing on that's the main problem, it's the 900-foot building it decided to perch on in the first place. Years ago, people decided that it was a good idea to scale Force users to solar system level. So when someone talks about a non-Force user character scaling to them, people will immediately consider "but then he'll be a solar system buster," instead of "maybe we shouldn't be scaling Force users to that level in the first place."

I don't blame the people who came up with those tiers, and I am not mocking them in any shape or form. You can reach that conclusion using canonical sources, but it requires you to muster up the courage for a lot of logical leaps, such as TPM Sidious shaking stars, Thon > Ambria > Sith Corsair, Natheema/Ziost > Valley of the Jedi or Valkorion > Darkstaff.

Moon to planet level you have with all the Charal and Shadowstone/Sunstar stuff. Planet surface you have with Force storms and Valkorion. Star level conventional Force users is a big, fat logical leap.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I mean this feels very Marvel and DC. Only difference is that Star Wars has a shared power source and canon explanations as to why some characters are more powerful in some instances.

 

[TheMerchant66]

There are also hax techniques within the Force that lets people hit above their pay grade, for example Thon was mentioned and Thon initially was actually getting destroyed by the Sith Spirits whom were haunting Ambria and presumably were drawing on its power. He needed to trick the spirits into Lake Natth and used some Light side energy technique that trapped the spirits there, which also locked Ambrias dark side energies.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I mean this feels very Marvel and DC. Only difference is that Star Wars has a shared power source and canon explanations as to why some characters are more powerful in some instances.

It is, the only differnece is that its all meant to be canon to each other which causes issues because writers take more liberties depending on the medium.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

This is going to really be hell if Visions is canon.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

This is going to really be hell if Visions is canon.

luckily it's not strict canon, lucasfilm is being coy about it but as of right now, it's it own thing.

 

[Antvasima]

So have any agreements been reached here, and if so, is somebody willing and able to apply them in practice?

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I believe Asura is working on a revision right now.

 

[ByAsura]

If you’re talking Legends, then yeah. It’s largely complete.

We’re currently planning some stuff for differenti portrayals.

@Merchant66 That’s actually one of the points I’m bringing up. Would you be interested in joining the private conversation group about Legends? (Answer on my message wall if you are).

In fact, if anyone’s interested, they can ask to join on my message wall. It’s a massive CRT.

 

[DMUA]

I mean this feels very Marvel and DC. Only difference is that Star Wars has a shared power source and canon explanations as to why some characters are more powerful in some instances.

Except Marvel and DC actually has explicit statements of Holding back, while that dude just posted a mountain of evidence that no, they do not hold back when they fight people like Boba Fett.

 

[Hellbeast]

It is, the only differnece is that its all meant to be canon to each other which causes issues because writers take more liberties depending on the medium.

I mean isn't Marvel mostly canon to itself? Like in the sense there's never hard resets in terms of continuity as it pertains to Earth 616? Legends is a bit more complicated since there's tons of stuff that;s non canon in respects to Legends, a continuity hierarchy and an animated series that contradicts Legends continuity officially being part of it and being

There are also hax techniques within the Force that lets people hit above their pay grade, for example Thon was mentioned and Thon initially was actually getting destroyed by the Sith Spirits whom were haunting Ambria and presumably were drawing on its power. He needed to trick the spirits into Lake Natth and used some Light side energy technique that trapped the spirits there, which also locked Ambrias dark side energies.

That would be sealing right?

Except Marvel and DC actually has explicit statements of Holding back, while that dude just posted a mountain of evidence that no, they do not hold back when they fight people like Boba Fett.

The problem is we still have several instances of their power levels shifting, depending on certain circumstances such as characters being conflicted, force Nexuses etc
We also might be modifying how Holding back works with Marvel (I know I suggested we limit that stuff to characters like Hulk and Spectre who have actual mechanics for shifting their strength)

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

If you’re talking Legends, then yeah. It’s largely complete.

Which Legends revision?

 

[Hellbeast]

By's, they've been working on this for a while

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Any link or is it just in planning?

 

[Hellbeast]

Planning here

 

[Sir_Ovens]

We can't see sandboxes on the Forum.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Any link or is it just in planning?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ByAsura/Sandbox1

 

[aeneax]

Planning here

The link is invalid.

ByAsura/Sandbox1

vsbattles.fandom.com

I'll voice some of my disagreements here. Apologies to OP and other members on this thread.

About Thon.​

Thon is more powerful than all of the spirits combined. Thon can easily repel all of the spirits, and he did. But as time passed and without means of killing or destroying them, Thon's Force reserves started to run dry, while the spirits had plenty of dark side energy available to refuel themselves and keep on attacking. He was already in an extremely weakened state (he can't even keep up a defensive wall against them anymore) by the time he decided to trap them. His strategy was to not only trap the spirits or regional dark energy, but to cleanse the entire planet.

The only scaling Bane deserves is being scaled to insect tier. Banite Sith are the absolute trash. Pit all the Banite Sith bar Sidious against 14-year-old Maul and they'll get absolutely mauled. Pre-prime Plagueis and prime Tenebrous concede inferiority to Sadow and Plagueis doesn't even understand the Force. These are the guys scaling to Thon?

Plagueis and Sidious are stated to be a match for the greatest of the Jedi Order, likely meaning Yoda, Mace Windu and Dooku.

Palpatine's understanding of the Jedi is completely skewed up until the point where he successfully succeeds Plagueis and gains a better understanding of the Force in general.

I don't disagree with the conclusion for Dooku, but I feel I should offer some alternative scaling. AOTC Dooku and AOTC Yoda are equals in the Force. Yoda is the superior fighter, yes, but he's not stronger. Dooku was holding back in the first part of the fight, but he gets serious against Anakin in the second part. FOB Anakin legitimately pressed Dooku and tired him. This is seen in the movie and stated three times by the Relaunched Fact Files (twice in #57 and once in #71). Dooku fights Yoda twice more, and there is the whole Council reaction scaling in the ROTS novel.

Good shit for AOTC/ROTS Anakin. I would also add that AOTC Anakin would've creamed Maul.

Now we get to Vader, where I harbor some disagreements as well. ROTJ Luke is not weaker than ROTJ Vader, and both are likewise inferior to Qui-Gon Jinn. I can get into detail in the aforementioned message wall discussion or Discord because that would be the longest case.

Stated to be the strongest of the Jedi. Possibly stronger than Anakin.

 

[Antvasima]

So have any agreements been reached here, and if so, is somebody willing and able to apply them in practice?

 

[TheMerchant66]

Great point about Thon, I definitely misremembered that he initially repelled the spirits easily. He should scale to Ambrias energies, at least partially, then.


I also disagree with Bane scaling from Ambria. In his final battle with Zannah, she taps into Ambrias energies and summons DS tentacles that nearly vaporized Banes arm by barely brushing against it and would have killed him if directly hit.

I am neutral on everything else.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Hellbeast]

Great point about Thon, I definitely misremembered that he initially repelled the spirits easily. He should scale to Ambrias energies, at least partially, then.


I also disagree with Bane scaling from Ambria. In his final battle with Zannah, she taps into Ambrias energies and summons DS tentacles that nearly vaporized Banes arm by barely brushing against it and would have killed him if directly hit.

I’d also note this would imply he’s High 6-A based off scaling to a ritual which is super weird

He is incredibly powerful though so we could scale him to some decent stuff

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

I think there are a few High 6-A feats anyway

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Just to bump this…. Are there any conclusions for this CRT?

 

[Antvasima]

Just to bump this…. Are any conclusions for this CRT?

@Sir_Ovens

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I believe Efi is planning a revision for Force abilities. We can shelf this until then.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I also wanted to add that we probably need to remove EU Windu's scaling to Sidious or change how we word it. He was amped to a much greater degree of Vapaad during that fight than any other time before due to his fractured mental state.

Canon Windu keeps the scaling though.

 

[Antvasima]

I believe Efi is planning a revision for Force abilities. We can shelf this until then.

Okay. No problem.

I also wanted to add that we probably need to remove EU Windu's scaling to Sidious or change how we word it. He was amped to a much greater degree of Vapaad during that fight than any other time before due to his fractured mental state.

Canon Windu keeps the scaling though.

What do you think Sir Ovens?