Possible Mario Profile Split/Varies Rating

[Foxthefox1000]

Hopefully this doesn't take a super long time

 

[Antvasima]

Hopefully this doesn't take a super long time

Agreed.

If somebody writes a list of the most knowledgeable and/or productive members who contributed to this thread, I can send them a notification afterwards, to see if any of them are willing to create, or collaborate to create, the new Mario revision organisation thread.

 

[Agnaa]

8 pages is a lot to read through, but I sympathize with the OP's arguments, and didn't find great counterarguments in the first few dozen posts. What's the current conclusion of this thread?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Mario is going to be split into different profiles to account for his fluctuating continuity, power levels, and abilities. Continuation threads to gather indexable feats for each series were meant to be created.

 

[Armorchompy]

I should mention that after viewing the amount of things that tie together what we had previously divided into different pseudo continuities I'm currently neutral about the split.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Okay. In lack of further feedback, that is probanly fine then.

Took the first step I guess:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/mario-feat-gathering-mario-kart.140424/

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you very much for helping out.

 

[Armorchompy]

Apologies for re-opening a closed thread but I want the most possible concerned people to see this, I wanted to apologize for pushing for a profile split since, after thinking about it, I strongly disagree with it, and I wanted my opinion to be known since the profile split hasn't really proceeded much (understandably, it's an insane, unrealistic amount of work that would probably never get completed) and I want to at least try to mend my mistake instead of forever leaving the verse in an unfixable limbo. This isn't a content revision, I don't want to lead any massive sweeping revision anymore due to burnout both on the verse and, partially, the site as a whole. I am willing to take a secondary role in helping but I'm tired of debating this verse. I just want to give my opinions in the hope they help supporters come to a conclusion, so I'll be a bit more blunt than I normally would.

First off, Mario is a single canon, there's way too many references between series to ignore that. The exception is Paper Mario, which is clearly its own continuity, but still connected to mainline with Paper Jam. Nobody's putting that (maybe PM stuff aside, but that doesn't concern this) into question. As for the proposal to split among series to make things more consistent, I originally agreed with it, maybe because it was sort of a way to get what I wanted, in a roundabout way (Mario series having more accurate stats), maybe because Zark (Impress) convinced me pretty well that there wasn't any other direction to take other than a Varies rating (which I strongly disagreed and disagree with), and that this superceded my own downgrade, but since she didn't input that much, I was forced to be the one to push it forward, she told me she'd input eventually. Well, she quit the wiki due to unrelated matters I won't get into, so that input never came, this was obviously not all purposeful on her end, at the very least, not the part where she quit, but it does leave me feeling rather sour.

Anyway, as I've thought about it, I think splitting a profile to account for inconsistency is effectively the same as adding a Varies rating with no verse justification. I think it's just a way to hide anti-feats (and outliers) as just a natural part of the character rather than something that disproves higher (and lower?) ratings and completely goes against site standards. There is absolutely no reason Mario's strength should be considered to actually change between series and I regret having ever pushed for it.

What I actually think should be done is what I was originally pushing for in this thread: Mario should be considered as one canon (PM aside), with a single set of stats (powerups, temporary amps, equipment and all similar stuff excluded of course). His AP in my opinion should be in the tier 8/7 range, anything lower is nitpicking to an excessive degree, and anything higher is hiding your head in the sand and ignoring the massive amount of anti-feats I collected which are still very valid. I have no opinion on what the other statistics should be though obviously LS shouldn't be Stellar or anything given that contrasts a sub-cosmic rating.

But again, this is only my opinion. If the majority thinks a profile split is the way to go, I won't stop ya, I personally disagree but at this point I don't care that much and I think you did good work on the Mario Kart profile, and ultimately it'll still lead to more accurate profiles than the current Mario profile whose stats I strongly disagree with. Apologies for making you sit through all this rant, but I had to get this off my chest and I think it may be important for the verse's future.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

Well glad you came out to say it if nothing else.

Frankly my biggest beef with Mario's profile is that Paper Mario & Mainline should be completely separate, it makes no sense to composite them, and that he should be viewed with higher scrutiny. If this is what gets that then so be it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Thank you for your time Armor.

I understand full well how you feel, and I was never a big fan of profile split/variable tier altogether either and prefer to keep the way Dino Ranger Black has often supervised the verse. Though I still have my disagreements and I think you might want to rephrase some parts.

I believe what you meant to say is that Paper Mario and mainline Mario are different characters from different universes within the same multiverse rather than different continuity. (I know it's confusing since continuity normally means timeline which also means universe which in turn has flexible meanings. Not just different timelines within a multiverse, but continuity is used to just mean canon)

I also disagree with Tier 8/7 and think that's far too low to the existence of other feats, and I still do not see the issue with McGuffin based lore scaling so as long as there is consistency. I also still think Mario and Paper Mario are the same Mario; the older Mario games still imply that, Superstar Saga remake makes that consistent, and Color Splash and Origami King admittedly have arguments for both sides. Though Paper Jam Paper Mario is clearly a different Mario than mainline Mario. But I'm not going to be judgmental towards those who believe otherwise.

But I'm glad that such an immense over hall is being reconsidered.

 

[Armorchompy]

I believe what you meant to say is that Paper Mario and mainline Mario are different characters from different universes within the same multiverse rather than different continuity. (I know it's confusing since continuity normally means timeline which also means universe which in turn has flexible meanings. Not just different timelines within a multiverse, but continuity is used to just mean canon)

Yes.

I also disagree with Tier 8/7 and think that's far too low to the existence of other feats, and I still do not see the issue with McGuffin based lore scaling so as long as there is consistency.

My issue with that is that I don't think there is consistency, the amount of anti-feats I have collected shows that in my opinion.

I also still think Mario and Paper Mario are the same Mario; the older Mario games still imply that, Superstar Saga remake makes that consistent, and Color Splash and Origami King admittedly have arguments for both sides. Though Paper Jam Paper Mario is clearly a different Mario than mainline Mario. But I'm not going to be judgmental towards those who believe otherwise.

That can be resolved at a different time, I strongly believe they should be split but it's not directly related to the subject at hand.

 

[Chariot190]

Personally I think splitting makes sense, but only a few specific ones.
Like for example, Bros, 2, 3, World, Land, Land 2, Wario Land 1/2/3/4 (Directly connected to Land), 64, Sunshine, Galaxy, Galaxy 2, 3D Land, 3D World, Bowser;s Fury, Odyssey, The New! games, etc. Should all be one thing, they're all directly connected, plus some, a good chunk of them have direct connections and in most cases, just sequels to each other, which accounts for the majority of the verse. It's more just a few notable exceptions, games kinda obviously doing their own thing that I'd say would warrant a split.

Such as Paper, which is blatantly its own thing (And the current Paper Mario profiles don't think of it as such. That's a verse I'm willing to help extensively with, even have a few feats saved for when that CRT gets posted, Shadow Queen has some good shit off the top of my head), I'd say would need a split, but at this point, I'm kinda just waiting to see what happens.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Paper Mario is explicitly the same person though, and Mario seems to vary in abilities depending on the game especially in Mario Maker

 

[Pikaman]

For current application issues the problem is just nobody is making the threads lol, Mario Kart got finished up a few weeks ago I think, and we just… haven’t moved on from there

 

[Dust_Collector]

I think the first Paper Mario can maybe be used for normal Mario since some games imply the events of that game happened (Like Superstar Saga) but every other Paper Mario game after that should count as it's own thing.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I think the first Paper Mario can maybe be used for normal Mario since some games imply the events of that game happened (Like Superstar Saga) but every other Paper Mario game after that should count as it's own thing.

No, the paper mario games after that are sequels to the older paper mario games and they're also the same people

 

[Dust_Collector]

Mario and Paper Mario are the same person yet there's an entire game where they're shown to be different people and team up

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Mario and Paper Mario are the same person yet there's an entire game where they're shown to be different people and team up

The paper mario in Paper Jam could be a different paper mario from the one in the paper mario games, like how there's more than 1 Dry Bowser and Metal Mario

 

[MicDaniel]

No one seems to be mentioning this and I want to get this idea out there.

Something we've seen in the series is that Paper Mario is a book within the Mario Universe. This is Seen within Luigi's Mansion and this fact is solidified in Paper jam. If Paper Mario is a book, then someone had to have written it and base the stories around the Mario Characters. The events of Paper Mario could have happened to Mainline Mario(given the callbacks) and Paper Mario itself is just a retelling of those adventures. Somewhere down the line the Book somehow manifested into its own Universe/Dimension.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

No one seems to be mentioning this and I want to get this idea out there.

Something we've seen in the series is that Paper Mario is a book within the Mario Universe. This is Seen within Luigi's Mansion and this fact is solidified in Paper jam. If Paper Mario is a book, then someone had to have written it and base the stories around the Mario Characters. The events of Paper Mario could have happened to Mainline Mario(given the callbacks) and Paper Mario itself is just a retelling of those adventures. Somewhere down the line the Book somehow manifested into its own Universe/Dimension.

Bullshit

 

[Armorchompy]

This isn't about Paper Mario, guys, we did have a more complete discussion on that subject earlier on in this thread, but right now what we should discuss is what to do with the verse as a whole.

Also, King, you've been banned two times already for toxic behavior (among other things), I really wouldn't advise you to act that rude once again.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

No one seems to be mentioning this and I want to get this idea out there.

Something we've seen in the series is that Paper Mario is a book within the Mario Universe. This is Seen within Luigi's Mansion and this fact is solidified in Paper jam. If Paper Mario is a book, then someone had to have written it and base the stories around the Mario Characters. The events of Paper Mario could have happened to Mainline Mario(given the callbacks) and Paper Mario itself is just a retelling of those adventures. Somewhere down the line the Book somehow manifested into its own Universe/Dimension.

Actually, it's more likely that book was the book written by the Penguin character Hemmingway.

I think the first Paper Mario can maybe be used for normal Mario since some games imply the events of that game happened (Like Superstar Saga) but every other Paper Mario game after that should count as it's own thing.

I'd absolutely argue the first 3 are explicitly implied to be sequels to each other, and also connect to the mainline games. Sticker Star era and beyond are arguably different though Origami King still implies the older Paper Mario games are the same Mario. So again, there are arguments on both side. And as for characters being made of paper being literal, there are mainline Mario games where being made of pixels has also been made literal before. So it just seems like a flexible physiology is a common power in the Mario multiverse (Consistent with atoms and molecules in the Mario multiverse being sentient individuals)

This isn't about Paper Mario, guys, we did have a more complete discussion on that subject earlier on in this thread, but right now what we should discuss is what to do with the verse as a whole.

Also, King, you've been banned two times already for toxic behavior (among other things), I really wouldn't advise you to act that rude once again.

He would still count as a sub topic, but I agree a general revote should be done before singling out outliers/PIS. And you are correct XXKing should watch his mouth.

 

[Antvasima]

So what is our revised tally here then?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think a staff recount is what is wanted for proposals. But ArmorChompy retracted wanting to go with Zark/Impress' suggestion about wanting to make either variable tiers or series/profile splits. For the former, as a repeat of what I said on the variable tiers revision thread and what Ryukama said on an earlier Mario thread, it's just a lazy way to remove all outliers and PIS out of existence and to just have an absolutely low and and absolute high end while having no middle ground tiers. And as for the latter, it also ignores that all Mario games are just one canon and all with only one possible exception being the same character and Paper Mario is still the same multiverse regardless of whether or not he is the same as the mainline one. And Paper Mario would still scale to main series Mario game via Paper Jam, just powers and abilities may be rearranged worst case scenario.

I personally would either go back to how Dino Ranger Black handled them, which is more or less what we have if we change nothing, or if a profile split needs to be done; I'd prefer an era split rather than a series split. The RPGs games at least do consistently portray Mario as a character who grows via progression, and even Super Mario series and other non RPG spinoff games have some showings; getting stomped by the villains early on only to fight on even grounds towards the end.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Noted. I do not think that would take into account the extreme degrees of inconsistency between different games though.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think there is a baseline of feats that most games stick to with acceptable consistency, there's some higher and some lower but I don't think finding an acceptable tier for Mario is any harder than it is for some other verses we index without need of special mechanisms.

To note, if Paper Mario is split, they may actually end up having multiple keys given he has RPG-like strength growth that isn't contrasted by other games, unlike mainline.

 

[AKM sama]

I can agree to the new reasons for the revised proposal. I guess this is a more practical approach.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

So what is the revised proposal in summary?

 

[Armorchompy]

Just, finding a good set of tiers for the Mario cast and applying it. And potentially splitting off Paper Mario, but that's not primary.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, but we cannot just suddenly overrule all of the staff members who conclusively voted for a split previously. We need to summon them here again to ask them first.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I think the first Paper Mario can maybe be used for normal Mario since some games imply the events of that game happened (Like Superstar Saga) but every other Paper Mario game after that should count as it's own thing.

Not really, Paper Mario 64 is directly contradicted by other games like Mario Party 5, where the Star Spirits from PM64 reappear with a completely different role in the series and no mention of the Star Rod or realm they protect, the literal only thing they exist for in PM64. That alone alongside the existence of Paper Jam should show that PM & Mainline are two different continuities.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

I personally think Paper Mario is the only one that should be split, the other games should just be one profile.

 

[JJSliderman]

Agreed.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Paper Mario's intelligence should stay the same since he still has his main series memories, but he has completely different physiology, so it is obvious that he should have a separate profile and a CRT just for that series

 

[Seol404]

I agree with Armorchompy's new proposal. On top of the reasons he listed it's quite an impractical task to undertake on top of being largely unnecessary as it would simply leave us with several nearly identical pages wherein the only difference is where the links take you for each calc/statement of feat. It serves no purpose beyond getting a compromise between ridiculous high end outliers and absurd low end outliers, when a single page which looks at Mario as a whole would work far better. I do stink think splitting Paper Mario could be done in the future but I don't think this is the thread for that.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I could make a CRT for a paper mario profile but I don't know much about the first game

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with Armorchompy’s new proposal. I can help with gathering feats across the franchise I suppose.

PM should also indeed be split into its own profiles but that can be handled later.

 

[Armorchompy]

A good way to find feats is looking through respect threads, r/respectthreads has a very well-researched and complete collection of feats across Mario games. They probably won't include higher-end feats such as the ones we currently use since they prefer to stick to more face value stuff but it's still very thorough research.

 

[Armorchompy]

Apologies for re-opening a closed thread but I want the most possible concerned people to see this, I wanted to apologize for pushing for a profile split since, after thinking about it, I strongly disagree with it, and I wanted my opinion to be known since the profile split hasn't really proceeded much (understandably, it's an insane, unrealistic amount of work that would probably never get completed) and I want to at least try to mend my mistake instead of forever leaving the verse in an unfixable limbo. This isn't a content revision, I don't want to lead any massive sweeping revision anymore due to burnout both on the verse and, partially, the site as a whole. I am willing to take a secondary role in helping but I'm tired of debating this verse. I just want to give my opinions in the hope they help supporters come to a conclusion, so I'll be a bit more blunt than I normally would.

First off, Mario is a single canon, there's way too many references between series to ignore that. The exception is Paper Mario, which is clearly its own continuity, but still connected to mainline with Paper Jam. Nobody's putting that (maybe PM stuff aside, but that doesn't concern this) into question. As for the proposal to split among series to make things more consistent, I originally agreed with it, maybe because it was sort of a way to get what I wanted, in a roundabout way (Mario series having more accurate stats), maybe because Zark (Impress) convinced me pretty well that there wasn't any other direction to take other than a Varies rating (which I strongly disagreed and disagree with), and that this superceded my own downgrade, but since she didn't input that much, I was forced to be the one to push it forward, she told me she'd input eventually. Well, she quit the wiki due to unrelated matters I won't get into, so that input never came, this was obviously not all purposeful on her end, at the very least, not the part where she quit, but it does leave me feeling rather sour.

Anyway, as I've thought about it, I think splitting a profile to account for inconsistency is effectively the same as adding a Varies rating with no verse justification. I think it's just a way to hide anti-feats (and outliers) as just a natural part of the character rather than something that disproves higher (and lower?) ratings and completely goes against site standards. There is absolutely no reason Mario's strength should be considered to actually change between series and I regret having ever pushed for it.

What I actually think should be done is what I was originally pushing for in this thread: Mario should be considered as one canon (PM aside), with a single set of stats (powerups, temporary amps, equipment and all similar stuff excluded of course). His AP in my opinion should be in the tier 8/7 range, anything lower is nitpicking to an excessive degree, and anything higher is hiding your head in the sand and ignoring the massive amount of anti-feats I collected which are still very valid. I have no opinion on what the other statistics should be though obviously LS shouldn't be Stellar or anything given that contrasts a sub-cosmic rating.

But again, this is only my opinion. If the majority thinks a profile split is the way to go, I won't stop ya, I personally disagree but at this point I don't care that much and I think you did good work on the Mario Kart profile, and ultimately it'll still lead to more accurate profiles than the current Mario profile whose stats I strongly disagree with. Apologies for making you sit through all this rant, but I had to get this off my chest and I think it may be important for the verse's future.

Okay, but we cannot just suddenly overrule all of the staff members who conclusively voted for a split previously. We need to summon them here again to ask them first.

Alright, I'll go back through the last few pages and see.

@Agnaa @Eficiente @Psychomaster35 @GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Elizhaa @EliminatorVenom

Didn't go through the discussion that happened before the thread moved from downgrading to splitting. Agnaa didn't give an opinion but I still would like his given that he opposes varies ratings because of toon force

 

[XXKINGXX69]

A good way to find feats is looking through respect threads, r/respectthreads has a very well-researched and complete collection of feats across Mario games. They probably won't include higher-end feats such as the ones we currently use since they prefer to stick to more face value stuff but it's still very thorough research.

Do you think we need another CRT for a paper mario profile?