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Possible Mario Profile Split/Varies Rating

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Yes, let's wait on that for now, there's gonna be a whole discussion to have and it's not really important right now.
 
Oh also, if we're un-splitting, should we make it so Wario and DK also have the same stats as "mainline" Mario? There isn't really a tangible reason to split them any more than there is to split other Mario subseries.
 
Armorchompy said:
Oh also, if we're un-splitting, should we make it so Wario and DK also have the same stats as "mainline" Mario? There isn't really a tangible reason to split them any more than there is to split other Mario subseries.
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Just saying that Wario's stronger than Mario in 64 DS, but after that there aren't really any instances of Wario scaling to Mario
 
Armorchompy said:
Oh also, if we're un-splitting, should we make it so Wario and DK also have the same stats as "mainline" Mario? There isn't really a tangible reason to split them any more than there is to split other Mario subseries.
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Also, can you make another blog with the actual anti feats (not feats but anti feats)? Some of the stuff in the blog you made are just well, feats. This is the first anti feat in that list, for example
 
Dust_Collector said:
I think the first Paper Mario can maybe be used for normal Mario since some games imply the events of that game happened (Like Superstar Saga) but every other Paper Mario game after that should count as it's own thing.
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The wording via the interview here pretty much groups the paper mario series as a whole together and being separate from m&l series and becoming a combined thing of shared events for the first time, so, if we are doing a split based on retcons, we may as well structure it that way.
 
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Armorchompy said:
Oh also, if we're un-splitting, should we make it so Wario and DK also have the same stats as "mainline" Mario? There isn't really a tangible reason to split them any more than there is to split other Mario subseries.
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Yeah I never really saw the point of these ratings, Wario especially. I want to read through the rest of the thread before giving my full thoughts, but I do agree with the one verse canon.
 
Armorchompy said:
Apologies for re-opening a closed thread but I want the most possible concerned people to see this, I wanted to apologize for pushing for a profile split since, after thinking about it, I strongly disagree with it, and I wanted my opinion to be known since the profile split hasn't really proceeded much (understandably, it's an insane, unrealistic amount of work that would probably never get completed) and I want to at least try to mend my mistake instead of forever leaving the verse in an unfixable limbo. This isn't a content revision, I don't want to lead any massive sweeping revision anymore due to burnout both on the verse and, partially, the site as a whole. I am willing to take a secondary role in helping but I'm tired of debating this verse. I just want to give my opinions in the hope they help supporters come to a conclusion, so I'll be a bit more blunt than I normally would.

First off, Mario is a single canon, there's way too many references between series to ignore that. The exception is Paper Mario, which is clearly its own continuity, but still connected to mainline with Paper Jam. Nobody's putting that (maybe PM stuff aside, but that doesn't concern this) into question. As for the proposal to split among series to make things more consistent, I originally agreed with it, maybe because it was sort of a way to get what I wanted, in a roundabout way (Mario series having more accurate stats), maybe because Zark (Impress) convinced me pretty well that there wasn't any other direction to take other than a Varies rating (which I strongly disagreed and disagree with), and that this superceded my own downgrade, but since she didn't input that much, I was forced to be the one to push it forward, she told me she'd input eventually. Well, she quit the wiki due to unrelated matters I won't get into, so that input never came, this was obviously not all purposeful on her end, at the very least, not the part where she quit, but it does leave me feeling rather sour.

Anyway, as I've thought about it, I think splitting a profile to account for inconsistency is effectively the same as adding a Varies rating with no verse justification. I think it's just a way to hide anti-feats (and outliers) as just a natural part of the character rather than something that disproves higher (and lower?) ratings and completely goes against site standards. There is absolutely no reason Mario's strength should be considered to actually change between series and I regret having ever pushed for it.

What I actually think should be done is what I was originally pushing for in this thread: Mario should be considered as one canon (PM aside), with a single set of stats (powerups, temporary amps, equipment and all similar stuff excluded of course). His AP in my opinion should be in the tier 8/7 range, anything lower is nitpicking to an excessive degree, and anything higher is hiding your head in the sand and ignoring the massive amount of anti-feats I collected which are still very valid. I have no opinion on what the other statistics should be though obviously LS shouldn't be Stellar or anything given that contrasts a sub-cosmic rating.

But again, this is only my opinion. If the majority thinks a profile split is the way to go, I won't stop ya, I personally disagree but at this point I don't care that much and I think you did good work on the Mario Kart profile, and ultimately it'll still lead to more accurate profiles than the current Mario profile whose stats I strongly disagree with. Apologies for making you sit through all this rant, but I had to get this off my chest and I think it may be important for the verse's future.
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Antvasima said:
Okay, but we cannot just suddenly overrule all of the staff members who conclusively voted for a split previously. We need to summon them here again to ask them first.
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@Agnaa @Eficiente @Psychomaster35 @SamanPatou @Elizhaa @EliminatorVenom

Your further input would be appreciated here.
 
I'll collect anti-feats for every damn videogame verse on this site if the tier 8/7 Mario shit goes through based on these anti-feats. Cause I can damn sure find a million anti-feats for other franchises as well that are also "heavily tied into the plot or story"

I can also heavily scrutinize most of the tier 7 feats as well.
 
Can you guys calm down? I can understand you're upset fox, but maybe focus on collecting all the various high end feats. I do agree Tier 8/7 is massive downplay though.

And XXKing, you were banned twice for your actions throughout this platform, it be appreciated if you avoided making inflammatory jokes here.
 
Mario is kind of a mess, splitting profiles seemed fine as powers did seem to vary between different series.

So, while say Wario is likely intended to be same in Wario Land & Warioware games, Warioware showcases Wario to be significantly weaker than current stats.

Profile split seemed fine to showcase power differences between series. Of course, that split did imply they are separate canons, which is probably not truly intended.

Can profile split not happen if it implies difference in canon?
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
I'll collect anti-feats for every damn videogame verse on this site if the tier 8/7 Mario shit goes through based on these anti-feats. Cause I can damn sure find a million anti-feats for other franchises as well that are also "heavily tied into the plot or story"
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By all means, I think that's a good thing.
Foxthefox1000 said:
I can also heavily scrutinize most of the tier 7 feats as well.
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That'll just make them tier 8

Can we focus on concluding that the split should be undone? I'll make a different thread for the downgrade.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Can you guys calm down? I can understand you're upset fox, but maybe focus on collecting all the various high end feats. I do agree Tier 8/7 is massive downplay though.

And XXKing, you were banned twice for your actions throughout this platform, it be appreciated if you avoided making inflammatory jokes here.
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It isn't a joke, if all those are considered limits, including them getting hurt by falls, then tier 9 would be consistent

Armorchompy said:
By all means, I think that's a good thing.

That'll just make them tier 8

Can we focus on concluding that the split should be undone? I'll make a different thread for the downgrade.
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This is true, I don't see why we can't do this for other verses to find a better idea of someone's tier. Who are the staff members who need to respond again?
 
idk enough about the canon to say whether a split is reasonable or not. I've seen stuff that goes both ways, but I've only played/seen about a dozen games in the series.

I think a split due to feats being different is wack if they are all part of the same canon.

I think a varies rating is wack.

Find a consistent end and give it to 'em.
 
Armorchompy said:
Alright, I'll go back through the last few pages and see.

@Agnaa @Eficiente @Psychomaster35 @GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Elizhaa @EliminatorVenom

Didn't go through the discussion that happened before the thread moved from downgrading to splitting. Agnaa didn't give an opinion but I still would like his given that he opposes varies ratings because of toon force
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Canon split doesn't seem necessary. Though, on tiers, I am fine with the tiers that end up being the most consistent.
 
Can somebody remind me which regular member that is currently organising the splitting project for Mario? We need to inform them about the apparent changed course in this regard.
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody remind me which regular member that is currently organising the splitting project for Mario? We need to inform them about the apparent changed course in this regard.
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It was Maverick_Zero_X pretty sure (Did the Mario Kart feat gathering thread).
And Armor, but now he's looking at funny monkey game among other things for feats to use for non split.
 
vsbattles.fandom.com

Mario (Mario Kart Series)

Mario is the main character and protagonist of the long-running and highly successful Mario series. He was created by Japanese video game designer Shigeru Miyamoto and also serves as the main mascot of Nintendo. Mario made his first appearance as the protagonist of the arcade game Donkey Kong...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Well, I think there was a non-staff member who started the new thread for organising the splitting of Mario profile pages after this one was accepted.
 
I think that I may have been thinking of @Pikaman , but that he has changed his profile picture since then.
 
Well, I recall that there was a regular member who was a driving force for the splitting revision, but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.
 
Alright, I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate real quick and say there actually is enough evidence that even if Mario and Paper Mario aren't the exact same character, they've at least been on similar enough adventures that the powers not directly related to PM being... well... Paper would be shared between them.

There's, of course, the current reasoning we use, such as Paper Mario characters appearing in Mainline Mario games (Dark Bones in Super Sluggers, Star Spirits in Mario Party 5, Goomboss in Super Mario 64 DS (Who even acknowledged that Mario had defeated him before despite this being his second appearance after Paper Mario 64 I'm pretty sure)).

There are also several times where Mainline Mario is acknowledged in Paper Mario and vice versa. Just to list a few:
Super Mario Bros. is acknowledged in Paper Mario
Paper Mario is acknowledged in Mario & Luigi
A level ripped directly from Mario 3 being acknowledged as history in Color Splash
Paper Mario 64 acknowledges Mario Golf, Mario Tennis and Mario Party
Mario Kart is acknowledged in Color Splash

And this is excluding any blatant 4th wall breaks.

An official magazine also notes that the brothers "Turned into paper" (Last paragraph on the page on the left)

Super Smash Bros. Melee's trophy description for Paper Mario also notes that the whole Paper thing is an "art style"

Also, Miyamoto him-*******-self said that it's "Always the same Mario", so that's a pretty big factor to prove it.

As for why Mario doesn't use any of his Paper powers in Paper Jam, which would solve any of the problems Paper Mario needed to solve, this is Mario. Mario is the god damn king of having certain abilities in one game and then completely forgetting they ever existed in the next.
 
The_Smashor said:
Alright, I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate real quick and say there actually is enough evidence that even if Mario and Paper Mario aren't the exact same character, they've at least been on similar enough adventures that the powers not directly related to PM being... well... Paper would be shared between them.

There's, of course, the current reasoning we use, such as Paper Mario characters appearing in Mainline Mario games (Dark Bones in Super Sluggers, Star Spirits in Mario Party 5, Goomboss in Super Mario 64 DS (Who even acknowledged that Mario had defeated him before despite this being his second appearance after Paper Mario 64 I'm pretty sure)).

There are also several times where Mainline Mario is acknowledged in Paper Mario and vice versa. Just to list a few:
Super Mario Bros. is acknowledged in Paper Mario
Paper Mario is acknowledged in Mario & Luigi
A level ripped directly from Mario 3 being acknowledged as history in Color Splash
Paper Mario 64 acknowledges Mario Golf, Mario Tennis and Mario Party
Mario Kart is acknowledged in Color Splash

And this is excluding any blatant 4th wall breaks.

An official magazine also notes that the brothers "Turned into paper" (Last paragraph on the page on the left)

Super Smash Bros. Melee's trophy description for Paper Mario also notes that the whole Paper thing is an "art style"

Also, Miyamoto him-*******-self said that it's "Always the same Mario", so that's a pretty big factor to prove it.

As for why Mario doesn't use any of his Paper powers in Paper Jam, which would solve any of the problems Paper Mario needed to solve, this is Mario. Mario is the god damn king of having certain abilities in one game and then completely forgetting they ever existed in the next.
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Let me give my counters, I guess:

First off, the link for PM being acknowledged in M&L is broken.

The Mario 3 CS thing is just described as "ancient images that make people feel happy/nostalgic", not really direct statements they were past history. If they were being reverential to the events of Mario 3, someone likely should've just mentioned it was a past adventure.

Golf, Tennis, and the concept of Parties existing within the PM universe, sure, they're probably referencing the games, but nothing is specifically shown or stated that they're referencing exact events in any of the Mario Party, Kart, or Golf games. Just that they've karted, partied, and golfed! They could have totally just had their own versions of these events, because lets be honest, karting, golfing, and having parties aren't exactly very specific concepts. This is pushed further with the fact that we see Paper Mario characters IN Mario Party that act completely different from how they were in PM, speaking of:

Frankly, the appearance of the Star Spirits in Mario Party 5 that you've mentioned showcase their difference, if nothing else. The Spirits exist in Paper Mario 64 as the protectors of the Star Rod in Star Road, that is their one stated purpose and what they're dedicated to. Yet in MP5, they exist as "Star Guards" to the Dream Depot, with absolutely no mention or allusion of the Star Rod or Star Road at any point to my knowledge. These two completely contradictory roles in two different facets of the franchise probably just mean: Characters that appear in Paper Mario have counterparts in the Mainline Mario verse.

The magazine statement is clearly very questionable too, this is just referencing various Mario games and could be speaking in a completely meta sense as well. There's nothing really showing this is indicative proof of the PM series being "Mario and Luigi turning into Paper" considering that idea has never been brought up or posited before at any point. Likely something that the intern typing these descriptions used to describe PM creatively.

I think the Melee point is super shoddy, that statement isn't wrong, Paper Mario's "artstyle" is 2D paper thin aesthetics. This description also generally talks about the game from a meta sense rather than a game/lore sense. That description doesn't indicatively state that the entire appearance of the game is JUST an aesthetical choice and not a part of the world itself.

The only things I don't really have counters for are:

SMB being acknowledged in PM64. That's solid enough, but it's also a single one off line, and honestly there's nothing saying that the events of SMB couldn't have played out in the PM Verse just like they did in the Mainline Verse.

Miyamoto saying "Mario is always the same Mario" is pretty clear cut, but its also contradicted at several points, as we've discussed, and he's also the same guy who described viewing the characters as just a troupe of actors performing the games as plays, which would make none of the games really... feat usable.
 
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