Possible Kale Revision ( Not concerning her tier, but justification. )

[Golden_Void]

I think they're fine.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Excuse me Rice-Sama..but.. The revision or the outliers?

 

[Golden_Void]

The current justifications. You could possibly squeeze in her fighting a weakened SS2 Goku. :^)

 

[Edgar81539]

aaaan she was defeated by Goku. While he was in God. And it was her controlled Berserker form. The feat is inconsistent.

 

[Spinoir]

You do Know thers a ting called holding back right?

 

[Edgar81539]

You do Know thers a ting called holding back right?

If he was holding back then it's not a feat. There's a reason we don't have Krillin matching Blue Kamehameha as a feat. Same for the "effortlessly tossed SSB Goku", it's inconsistent with later showings.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Go.Talk.To.Matthew. I am NOT arguing this anymore.

 

[Golden_Void]

Kale has never once held back. Goku slapped her and they were relatively on par, with Goku having the edge.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Was she in her full on Beserker mode or not ?

 

[Golden_Void]

She was in the controlled version of that form apparently.

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

To me at least, he must have had a zenkai boost fighting Jiren and literally being near dead after their brawl. It's the only way SSG can do crap while SSB originally got bodied .

 

[Golden_Void]

That and he broke past his limits by resisting the spirit bomb, which had the energy of both androids, Frieza, Gohan, Piccolo, etc.

 

[Aizenishere]

So like... What exactly would be the difference between the "controlled" version and full blown berserk

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Full Blown Beserk = Her power constantly rises [ Goes from beating up Goku to releasing enough power to get Jiren concerned... While right now he doesn't care. It generally means current controlled beserker is a lot weaker than full blown beserker. ]

Controlled Beserker = Current SSG-Post Jiren [ Which is a lot stronger than Pre-Jiren , but still ToP SSB Goku ]

 

[Warren_Valion]

Full Blown Beserk = Her power constantly rises [ Goes from beating up Goku to releasing enough power to get Jiren concerned... While right now he doesn't care. It generally means current controlled beserker is a lot weaker than full blown beserker. ]
Controlled Beserker = Current SSG-Post Jiren [ Which is a lot stronger than Pre-Jiren , but still ToP SSB Goku ]

Didn't Tien say that when Kale controlled her Berserk form, her power massively increased?

 

[Edgar81539]

Full Blown Beserk = Her power constantly rises [ Goes from beating up Goku to releasing enough power to get Jiren concerned... While right now he doesn't care. It generally means current controlled beserker is a lot weaker than full blown beserker. ]
Controlled Beserker = Current SSG-Post Jiren [ Which is a lot stronger than Pre-Jiren , but still ToP SSB Goku ]

Didn't Tien say that when Kale controlled her Berserk form, her power massively increased?

Yeah, it was stated this episode by the Peanut gallery that she somehow got stronger than her berserker form by controlling it.


So there it is. Inconsistency. It has been 2 episodes of her being shown as weaker than Goku at his lower forms, why are we still paying attention to an episode (100) with clearly inconsistent power scaling?

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

This is a SSG who has a zenkai-boost(s) due to reaching past his limits + Being near killed by Jiren. Is it too much to state that current SSG >>>> Just a bout any transformation Goku had up until then [ Besides Ultra Instinct ] ? Especially considering SSB actually made Jiren move a litle, when he was completely unmoved by SSB or even SSBKKX20 before. All of his forms are a lot stronger than before he fought Jiren

 

[Edgar81539]

Unless it's directly stated by the show, I would refrain from saying that Goku previous forms somehow got stronger while exhausted. Also Zenkai doesn't work that way. You need to explicitely rest/recover (sleep, healing or rest) from the beating to get a Zenkai boost.

Also the fact that the last time that Zenkai was explicitely mentioned by Dragon Ball media, it was on the manga and it was stated that the more powerful you are, the smaller the Zenkai returns to the point they're practically unnoticeable.

 

[Golden_Void]

The physiology of a Saiyan has long since been updated from that statement. :^)

 

[AKM sama]

Any chance that Tien made that statement with respect to Kale's ssj version?

I personally think SSB was not going all out against Kale in ep 100 as he said "I'll let out more power" instead of "I'll let out all of my power". So Goku probably used more than ssj2 in ep 100, we don't know how much. But Kale was swapping hands with SSG Goku and deflected his ki blast so I think she should be SSG tier or below that, since Goku wasn't damaged by her attack at all and was likely holding back as he was smiling all the time, fighting 2 at the same time and not at his 100%.

 

[Edgar81539]

^^ Goku Black is not an accurate sample for Saiyan skills and powers considering his reactive evolution is his alone, along with having Zenkai boosts of his own.

^I agree with the above statement; having Kale be SSG tier is consistent with both episodes while having in consideration that the Blue Kamehameha she tanked was from a Goku holding back.