Possible DBS downgrade

[Lgamer099_99]

In episode 89 the narrator said that Gohan (after unleashing his hidden potential once again) has regained the strenght of the past (minute 0:18), this means that Gohan during episode 88 as SSJ2 was waker than Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan and after unleashing his hidden potencial again he was as strong as him during Buu Saga.

Piccolo seems to be weaker than Episode 88 Ultimate Gohan so he should be downgrade to 4-B, and also other characters like Frost should be downgrade. I know that Frost fought against Goku after absorbing Super Saiyan God, but Goku could be heavily suppressed against him.

Goku and Vegeta suppressed against characters like Frost doesn't sound strange to me, what do you think guys?

 

[AKM sama]

That statement was implying that he regained his past form, i.e. Ultimate Gohan. Otherwise Gohan wouldn't have been able to go toe to toe with SSB level characters in the ToP.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

That statement was implying that he regained his past form, i.e. Ultimate Gohan. Otherwise Gohan wouldn't have been able to go toe to toe with SSB level characters in the ToP.

I never said that Gohan during ToP was 4-B, Gohan against Goku (before ToP) had surpassed his limits.

I think that: Episode 88 Gohan 4-B (as strong as him during Buu saga), Episode 90 Gohan 3-A (broke his limits and fought Goku)

 

[MeleeniumRXJ]

PIS maybe.

 

[Akreious]

I always interpreted it as Gohan regaining his Ultimate form, not that he is now just as strong as he was before.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I always interpreted it as Gohan regaining his Ultimate form, not that he is now just as strong as he was before.

Narrator and also Piccolo suggest that Gohan is as strong as before, we know that the Ultimate was Gohan's limit during Buu Saga and Piccolo still talking about this limit. Also, I always tought it was strange that Gohan became a lot stronger without having his Ultimate state.

Edit: Also Goku said (minute 1:01) that Gohan during Zeno's Exhibition Match was out of practice and that Gohan with his original power shoulda been able to do better

 

[TruthMe]

I always interpreted it as Gohan regaining his Ultimate form, not that he is now just as strong as he was before.

Narrator and also Piccolo suggest that Gohan is as strong as before, we know that the Ultimate was Gohan's limit during Buu Saga and Piccolo still talking about this limit.
Also, I always tought it was strange that Gohan became a lot stronger without having his Ultimate state.

Edit: Also Goku said (minute 1:01) that Gohan during Zeno's Exhibition Match was out of practice and that Gohan with his original power shoulda been able to do better

I think there are some possibilities.

People here have gone powerscalling characters to 3-A for fighting base Goku or normal SSJ forms Goku due to him absorbing SSJG power, but something here doesn't hold up well.

Frost most likely shouldn't be 3-A, Goku was probably holding back on him, Frost case is not that different to Ganos case.

In Ganos case, we didn't powerscalled Ganos to 3-A from fighting Goku, because he lost to Roshi, instead of powerscalling Ganos to 3-A and then Roshi to 3-A from fighting Ganos.

But then, if we didn't powerscalled Ganos to 3-A from fighting Goku, and we didn't powerscalled Roshi to 3-A from fighting Genos, then why should we powerscalled Frost to 3-A from fighting Goku and Piccolo to 3-A from fighting Frost? Is it some sort of weird form of double standard to powerscale characters?

Ganos didn't have anything to support him been 3-A, but Frost doesn't either, so giving him 3-A from fighting Goku alone, unless he needed SSJG or above to fight frost doesn't seem accurate, to me.

Frost doesn't have any feat to support him been 3-A, other than Fighting a more likely than not heavily supressed Goku, which Ganos also did, and who we doesn't consider 3-A.

And what about Tupper, Goku also had problems with Tupper, and N┬░ 18 was able to get rid of him fairly easy. We haven't powerscaled Tupper from Goku, nor N┬░18 from Tupper.

--

For me, it is safe to prove a character to be 3-A or above, should at very least fight Goku in his SSJG form or above, or fight characters in comparable or somewhere near power to that of Goku ussing his SSJG form or above.

 

[AKM sama]

Ganos didn't force Goku to transform into SSJ, so the notion of him holding back against Ganos seems most likely. Same could not be said about Frost as he forced Goku into SSJ.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I disagree with the OP and I think AKM Sama has this in the bag. Normally I'd be more elaborate, but I just had a long night.

 

[RashFaustinho]

There is a huge misconception here about Saiyan's base forms.

We know, thanks to BOG and ROF movies, that Goku acquired the ability to use the Saiyan God's power in his inferior forms.

Said ability in the videogames has been called Saiyan Beyond God

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/God-like_Saiya


That means that's NOT a true "base" Goku, he's just borrowing the power of the SSG state. So, he's WAY stronger than the Base Goku that faced Frost.

In an interview with Akira Toriyama related to the BOG movie:

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/

"I think you'll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God's power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. "

Goku is using the power he absorbed with the fight with Beerus. Thus, always according to Toriyama, he does NOT need to transform anymore, except for the Blue form, which is effectively a Saiyan Beyond God + Super Saiyan mix

So, if Goku transforms into a Yellow Saiyan, that means he is NOT using SSG's power.

(And before you point about his golden transformation in BOG after losing SSG, Beerus makes it 100% clear that he activated said transformation unconsciously, and Goku himself didn't realize it.)

Champa's Tournament's Base Goku that's facing Frost cannot be 3-A. He is not using SSG's power, otherwise, he wouldn't transform into a Yellow Super Saiyan, he would go to Blue directly instead.

So, his "feats" from BOG where he absorbed SSG's power should not be considered when taking into consideration his fight against Frost.

Treating Base Goku as 3-A during the Tournament of Champa is nonsensical and goes against the interview mentioned above.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I think that Goku and Vegeta evolved their SSJ God's power SSJ into Super Saiyan Blue.

So when Base Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) become SSJ he doesn't become yellow, but blue.

This is coerent with Toriyama's interview mentioned above, and it's also confirmed here.

So Base Goku (suppressed) --> SSJ

Base Goku (with the power of Super Saiyan God) --> SSJ Blue.

This is also coerent with Whis and Oracle Fish's words.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

This seems to make sense. DBS is known for atrocious power scaling, with many many things not making sense. Everybody and their mother mother is 3-A because of base Goku.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Tbh guys I'm starting to doubt universal base forms.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Saiyan Beyond God is not a transformation, but a concept. We used to consider it a transformation, until Dragon Ball Super's details and the battle against Beerus revealed more information. During the entire fight with Beerus in his SSG form, the form wore off and he actually hasn't gotten any weaker at all. And when he went SSJ; the yellow form, his power only grew stronger than SSG was, and then he later went back to SSG and grew even stronger.

Goku has also gotten a lot stronger in RoF and it's stated that Goku and Vegeta got stronger to the point where even their base forms are equal to that of a SSG. Saiyan Beyond God is just the concept of a Super Saiyan with the powers of a SSG without needing to transform into one. All his forms are universal. And in Universe 6 saga, they trained for 3 years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and only grew much stronger, there's not reason for their base forms not to be 3-A.

And as for Gohan argument, they simply said he was the warrior he once was, it has nothing to do with his actually PL being equal to his Buu saga self; because obviously he's much higher than that. It's similar to Majin Vegeta comparing himself to Saiyan Saga Vegeta; he's talking about his character, not his PL. Gohan in Super has every reason to be Universal considering he was initially a challenge for SSB Goku. But his base forms would also be 3-A scaling from Goku. Piccolo would also be 3-A since he was above SSJ2 Gohan and was able to keep up with Ultimate Gohan. Frost is also stated to be above Final Form Frieza; not saying he's Golden Frieza, but he did legit force Goku to go SSJ despite base Goku being 3-A and also being much stronger than he was in RoF saga.

All in all, the 3-A base forms are stating and it's been discussed multiple times.

Also, the interview is talking about the difference between regular Ki and Godly Ki; which Goku has both. But it doesn't matter which one he's using as he's still universal regardless. Saiyan Beyond God is merely a concept of him being able to achieve Universal levels of strength using just his regular Ki. He only uses Godly Ki when going SSG or above, and SSB basically mixes them together, but he's still Universal no matter what.

 

[AKM sama]

From the discussion rules:

• Please do not create discussion threads complaining about the Dragon Ball Super characters being upgraded to 3-A based on Base Goku's revision, as the topic has been discussed to exhaustion at this point and every thread tends to be a repeat of the last one. The characters who became Universal have demonstrated legitimate scaling to be upgraded, while the characters who didn't have not. Failure to adhere to this rule will result in the thread being locked.

This has been discussed to the point of exhaustion in the past 4 years.

 

[RashFaustinho]

This is untrue and filled with speculation.

Goku lost his SSG form, and didn't lost any power because he has absorbed SSG's power inside himself, as stated multiple times.

Goku (with God's power) getting stronger with SSJ isn't a thing. Base Goku briefly fights with Beerus when he loses SSG, and he has no trouble keeping up the flow of the battle even in his base form. After that, he becomes unconsciously Yellow SSJ, and he doesn't even NOTICE that he transformed, or that he lost his previous transformation.

During the course of the fight with Beerus, due to Goku absorbing God power, his power remains roughly the same between SSG, Base and Yellow SSJ. Yellow SSJ doesn't increase anything, and if it did, it would be such a minuscle buff that it can be ignored.

That is further confirmed in the ROF movie where Base Goku with God's power stops using any kinds of transformations, and prefers sticking with Base God Form - SSJ Blue.

After the ROF saga, Goku RETURNS using Yellow forms (which are confirmed to be USELESS for a God-Like Saiyan between BOG, ROF and Interviews with the author himself).

Against Frost, it's obvious that Goku isn't using his Godly Ki because he doesn't that to show that power, and can face Frost with regular Ki and regular SSJ transformations.


The argument of Goku using 3-A's power is just nonsense and the Post-ROF/Pre-TOP Gohan situation just confirms that, since he went training with Piccolo because he has gotten considerably weaker, he also lost his Ultimate Form and SSJ2 forms which clerarly shows that he lacked training, so, if anything, that just proves he should be weaker than 4-B, his Buu Saga former self, not 3-A, that just goes against the point of the ENTIRE scene.

Also, DO NOT throw TOP Gohan in this mix, the argument being made here is just wrong, since you're considering pre-training and post-training Gohan as the same thing.

That Ultimate Gohan after the training is clearly in the SSB Tier. He does not scale to Base Goku, he scales to SSB Goku, and should remain in that tier.

But pre-Ultimate Gohan being Universal? Hell no.

 

[HST_Master]

The anime takes precedence over the movies. In yhe anime Goku goes back to Super Saiyan not base, and not only is he still able to keep up with Beerus and land blows, others can sense him (It's how they noticed SSG wore off in the 1st place.)

 

[RashFaustinho]

From the discussion rules:

• Please do not create discussion threads complaining about the Dragon Ball Super characters being upgraded to 3-A based on Base Goku's revision, as the topic has been discussed to exhaustion at this point and every thread tends to be a repeat of the last one. The characters who became Universal have demonstrated legitimate scaling to be upgraded, while the characters who didn't have not. Failure to adhere to this rule will result in the thread being locked.

This has been discussed to the point of exhaustion in the past 4 years.

So, essentially, asking me to shut up?

Whatever, the scaling of the lower spectrum of the characters of DBS are all over the place, but seems like it's not a likeable topic to be brought up for the ones that decided this scaling

Sorry for the previous post, it was written while the above mentioned one was being posted

 

[AKM sama]

Tbf, nothing new has been brought to the table. These arguments have already been debunked multiple times. Hence, the rule.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The 3-A ratings are not wrong, and Goku absorbing SSG has been discussed a long time ago and we aren't going back to it. Goku is permanently a Saiyan Beyond God after the BoG saga, and has only gotten much stronger after each and every episode. There are occurrences where he can use his SSB form without using powers even close to what his base form is capable; such as when he spared with Krillin. But that's not the point.

Goku is universal regardless of him using Regular Ki or Godly Ki and this can further be proven by other details. There's the fact that Hit doesn't technically have any Godly Ki at all, but he's on par with those who do. All Godly Ki is for is simply to make it harder for those to sense your Ki; it has little to do with actual raw power. But despite that, Hit effortlessly stomped SSB Vegeta when Base Goku did better against Hit than SSB did. That being said, Vegeta was somewhat exhausted from his previous fights and not saying Base Goku is above SSB Vegeta, but Goku is easily Universal in all forms for those reasons.

And in turn, it's also one of many reasons we have plenty of 3-A characters. And yes, as said above, the movies are no longer canon and it's the Super Anime that takes highest priority.

 

[RashFaustinho]

Tbf, nothing new has been brought to the table. These arguments have already been debunked multiple times. Hence, the rule.

I highly doubt that the debunking was even done properly, considering one of the experts here thinks that pre-TOP Gohan and post-TOP Gohan are the same thing, when he unlocks 2 transformations in between.

But, whatever, that's fine.

It's just that while I do agree with the higher spectrum (Ultimate Gohan, N.17, Blueku and similar character being 3-A and Low 2-C) the lower spectrum makes no sense and clearly it's not what was intended.

To me, scaling all the people to a supposedly 24/7 3-A Goku sounds just like massive wanking for the DBS Verse

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

Every single topic mentioned was mentioned by many other people in the past. We aren't asking you to shut up... But we are asking you to provide new information anout the topic if any, because we've heard all those arguments and a lot more... and it was still debunked thoroughly

 

[Lgamer099_99]

This is untrue and filled with speculation.
Goku lost his SSG form, and didn't lost any power because he has absorbed SSG's power inside himself, as stated multiple times.

Goku (with God's power) getting stronger with SSJ isn't a thing. Base Goku briefly fights with Beerus when he loses SSG, and he has no trouble keeping up the flow of the battle even in his base form. After that, he becomes unconsciously Yellow SSJ, and he doesn't even NOTICE that he transformed, or that he lost his previous transformation.

During the course of the fight with Beerus, due to Goku absorbing God power, his power remains roughly the same between SSG, Base and Yellow SSJ. Yellow SSJ doesn't increase anything, and if it did, it would be such a minuscle buff that it can be ignored.

That is further confirmed in the ROF movie where Base Goku with God's power stops using any kinds of transformations, and prefers sticking with Base God Form - SSJ Blue.

After the ROF saga, Goku RETURNS using Yellow forms (which are confirmed to be USELESS for a God-Like Saiyan between BOG, ROF and Interviews with the author himself).

Against Frost, it's obvious that Goku isn't using his Godly Ki because he doesn't that to show that power, and can face Frost with regular Ki and regular SSJ transformations.


The argument of Goku using 3-A's power is just nonsense and the Post-ROF/Pre-TOP Gohan situation just confirms that, since he went training with Piccolo because he has gotten considerably weaker, he also lost his Ultimate Form and SSJ2 forms which clerarly shows that he lacked training, so, if anything, that just proves he should be weaker than 4-B, his Buu Saga former self, not 3-A, that just goes against the point of the ENTIRE scene.

Also, DO NOT throw TOP Gohan in this mix, the argument being made here is just wrong, since you're considering pre-training and post-training Gohan as the same thing.

That Ultimate Gohan after the training is clearly in the SSB Tier. He does not scale to Base Goku, he scales to SSB Goku, and should remain in that tier.

But pre-Ultimate Gohan being Universal? Hell no.

I totally agree with you.

How can Gohan be 3-A if he is a LOOT rusty? Characters' words and logic support that Gohan pre training is weaker than himself during Buu Saga.

After his training with Piccolo and after he broke his limits Gohan is crearly 3-A, but before that? Absolutely not.

After the battle with Beerus, Goku realized that fully mastering his base and Super Saiyan forms would be more beneficial than other training (as Toriyama said in his interview), leading to these forms being mastered in his training with Whis and resulting in him obtaining the God like Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue states.

So this Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan God's power evolved into Super Saiyan Blue, also Goku's words suggest that.

 

[AKM sama]

I would've gone into detail here even if it's debunked in the past, but I'm rather busy at the moment.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

We don't scale every single character; look at Krillin, Master Roshi, Tien, Android 18, ect. And a whole bunch of fodder characters in the ToP; there's a lot of characters who aren't 3-A. No one is being wanked or downplayed, and we also get equal levels of complaints for people trying to push for them being 3-A as well.

We do have middle ground and we already discussed this countless times for years. What we have is currently what they're staying at. There's no need to change anything at all. The Universe 6 cast, Gohan, Piccolo, Android 17, Frieza, ect. all have every reason to be Universal.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

We don't scale every single character; look at Krillin, Master Roshi, Tien, Android 18, ect. And a whole bunch of fodder characters in the ToP; there's a lot of characters who aren't 3-A. No one is being wanked or downplayed, and we also get equal levels of complaints for people trying to push for them being 3-A as well.
We do have middle ground and we already discussed this countless times for years. What we have is currently what they're staying at. There's no need to change anything at all. The Universe 6 cast, Gohan, Piccolo, Android 17, Frieza, ect. all have every reason to be Universal.

I know that you already discussed this multiple times, but nothing debunk that Super Saiyan Blue is the evolved form of the Yellow Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan God's power.

Not only Toriyama's interview suggest that, but also the anime, official files, the manga and even the videogames.

So why Super Saiyan Blue shouldn't be the evolution of the Yellow Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan God's power?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

SSB Blue is above both those forms for sure, but nothing debunks base forms not being Universal.

 

[RashFaustinho]

Since I've been said that you're tired of this argument, and this is going to be a lengthy argument, I'll leave it at that. I'd have to argue with different people here since the Universal base NO GODLY KI Goku has been widely accepted.


I'll be asking one questions to you all, though.

Do you SERIOUSLY believe, that when the U6 Tournament saga was coincived, and Toei/Toriyama/Toyotaro created Cabba and Frost, someone stood up and said "since Goku absorbed SSG's power for good, we should make it so SSJ1 Cabba and Frost are powerful as a SSJ God, so that Goku has at least the chance to transform once"?

And if you don't, what's the point of scaling said characters in this way, just to mantain all the massive PIS and stupid inconsistent fighting scenes that DBS had always been filled with?

I do not necessarily think that the whole DBS scaling is terrible, the Top Tiers are got right (or at least I think). But all the lesser warriors just clash with a lot of the show's points.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

SSB Blue is above both those forms for sure, but nothing debunks base forms not being Universal.

I'm saying that SSJ Blue replaced Yellow SSJ with Super Saiyan God's power and now the Yellow Super Saiyan is yes stronger than Buu Saga Super Saiyan, but not Universal.

It's like Goku suppressed himself when he use regular Super Saiyan.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Regular SSJ forms 1-3 are still stronger than his Base form, just weaker than the new improved SSG transformation which is in turn weaker than SSB. But even Base forms are universal when Goku's serious. Goku also has enough Ki control to use less than Universal powers in SSB form.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Regular SSJ forms 1-3 are still stronger than his Base form, just weaker than the new improved SSG transformation which is in turn weaker than SSB. But even Base forms are universal when Goku's serious. Goku also has enough Ki control to use less than Universal powers in SSB form.

Can't be something like that?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Btw can I get a link to the threads these were discussed in?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

May I also remind you guys base Goku Black was throwing hands with a suppressed blue Vegeta and when he went rosé, a god level form, he was stronger than Goku but not unfathomably stronger, Goku was still comparable.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Zamasu, the threads have been discussed back when Tournament of Power was literally new. But yeah, Goku Black is another reason to prove the base forms being Universal given even base Goku Black toyed with with SSB Vegeta early on with Super Saiyan Rose made his power skyrocket the same way Base for to SSB makes one sky rocket. Same with Trunk keeping up with the SSB's even in SSJ2 form.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

What I'm saying is base Goku Black is around ssg level but when he went rosé Goku was still able to somewhat fight on par with him.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Another proof is that Caulifla need to become SSJ against Napapa , Napapa is the same guy who had some problems against Basil .

So SSJ Caulifla at the beginning of the tournament can't be 3-A, she's crearly in difficulty against the warrior of universe 10.

This is not enough? Base Caulifla seems to be slower than Kettol.

So 4-B Piccolo, Frost and others characters doesn't seem strange.

So if Goku and Vegeta want they can suppress themselves and don't use the power of Super Saiyan God that is inside them.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Base Caulifla also got annihilated by star level Pride Troopers.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Piccolo and Frost are staying 3-A, we discussed this countless times. As for Caulifa, she actually appears to be extremely casual during that scene. Kale is also clearly 3-A in her Super Saiyan transformations which Caulifa was at least able to keep up with her. Piccolo has way too many feats to be 3-A and is legit almost as strong as Mystic Gohan. Caulifa is one of the more inconsistent characters, but Frost and Piccolo have legit showings and statements to be 3-A.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Piccolo and Frost are staying 3-A, we discussed this countless times. As for Caulifa, she actually appears to be extremely casual during that scene. Kale is also clearly 3-A in her Super Saiyan transformations which Caulifa was at least able to keep up with her. Piccolo has way too many feats to be 3-A and is legit almost as strong as Mystic Gohan. Caulifa is one of the more inconsistent characters, but Frost and Piccolo have legit showings and statements to be 3-A.

But how?

Goku never said something like "woah Piccolo you are a LOT stronger than before".

Vegeta and Goku still treat Piccolo like a fodder, and also Gohan was treated like he was a lot rusty and weaker than himself during Buu Saga, how can you explain this?

Also, Base Gohan was in difficulty against Jimizu, so is not just Caulifla who was in difficulty against Large Star Level and Solar System Level characters.

 

[Akreious]

Caulifla and Kale jumped literal tiers within the same arc. Even though they might've been 4-B at some points, it shouldn't be evidence that they aren't 3-A since they're stupid powerful in how much they jump in strength. So much so I'd consider their power increase as Toriyama forgetting how power progression works.

"Goku never said something like "woah Piccolo you are a LOT stronger than before"."

Mmm problem is, I don't recall Piccolo ever going 100% for Goku to ever do anything of the sort?

"Vegeta and Goku still treat Piccolo like a fodder, and also Gohan was treated like he was a lot rusty and weaker than himself during Buu Saga, how can you explain this? "

Because even if Piccolo was 3-A, he'd still be fodder?

Also all Goku was saying at that point was that Gohan still could've gotten stronger, they both knew that. He wasn't using Ultimate form at the time; the inner potential Goku was talking about. There's no mention of him during the Buu Saga or whatever either.

"Also, Base Gohan was in difficulty against Jimizu, so is not just Caulifla who was in difficulty against Large Star Level and Solar System Level characters."

Jimizu was teleporting all around Gohan and never giving him a chance to fight back. Simply having difficulty with an opponent doesn't automatically mean that you're weaker than them in strength; especially since we have an example of Low 2-C Jiren being harmed by 3-A Android 17. In the very same video, Frieza knew exactly how to counter instant transmission and Jimizu was utterly trashed.