Pokémon: Nearly Everything is Canon

[Bobsican]

As some may recall, years ago a sort of canon split was done across all Pokémon media, considering each series, including the manga and animes, as separate canons.

However, the reasons for this are questionable and simply go against the overall way the canon for the series works.

There are these two docs covering the entire reasonings for the separation and their debunks, and overall this'd be making nearly all games, the animes and the mangas canon for indexing purposes, worth reiterating that this is more of a case of stuff across different timelines having similar traits to consider equal, rather than every single thing happening in the same universe, before arguments involving how X and Y can't coexist in the same universe start being brought up.

Also, the following games still wouldn't be canon as they provide no lore:

Pokémon Shuffle
Pokémon Art Academy
Pokémon Picross series
Pokémon Pinball series

Additionally the following isn't usable for different reasons:

Pokémon Mini games (they are regarded as fictional in Pokémon Channel)
Super Smash Bros series (crossover game with lore that makes it explicitly not canon)

 

[Thelastmlg]

aren't we still treating most things as canon and simply not cross scaling pokemon between continuity, but since they are considered to be within the same cosmology, "multiversal" pokemon keep their feats between games

though i recall mystery dungeon being the most significant removal from canon

 

[Hypertornado099]

Read like 30% of the first blog and I think its fair to say they share a very similar setting, but I don't think its enough to do any cross-scaling between continuities. I agree that almost all of Ayewale's arguments are bunk, though

is the fact that Legendaries being composited is basically a given by virtue of what legendaries are intended to be, which are unique entities who are one of kind and aren’t necessarily a “species” to speak of per-say.

This is false. Multiple of the same legendary have appeared in both the games and anime

As I’ve mentioned before, if a Legendary Pokémon showcases something in a given continuity, then it’s logical to conclude that any and every version of that Legendary Pokémon can do it as well.

This isn't even true within the same continuity. An Articuno in Journeys is much stronger than an Articuno from any other episode in the anime (as shown in this fight). I don't think the different continuities sharing many general rules means literally every single thing a legendary does in 1 continuity can be done by the same legendary in every continuity, that's a pretty massive leap in logic

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Given that I helped with this blog and it’s arguments, naturally I agree.

This is false. Multiple of the same legendary have appeared in both the games and anime

Multiples of a legendary isn’t exactly really indicative of being a species

This isn't even true within the same continuity. An Articuno in Journeys is much stronger than an Articuno from any other episode in the anime (as shown in this fight). I don't think the different continuities sharing many general rules means literally every single thing a legendary does in 1 continuity can be done by the same legendary in every continuity, that's a pretty massive leap in logic

Correct me if I’m mistaken but I’m not sure what this clip is supposed to entail for this point? Articuno slapping down multiple non-legendaries wouldn’t mean this Articuno is a superior variant to other ones.

 

[Thelastmlg]

gotta ask, are there any cases of legendaries having multiple individuals outside of gameplay? Do the characters ever acknowledge multiple copies of legendaries existing? Especially ancient ones that had a hand in the creation of the world for example?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Correct me if I’m mistaken but I’m not sure what this clip is supposed to entail for this point? Articuno slapping down multiple non-legendaries wouldn’t mean this Articuno is a superior variant to other ones.

...Might wanna take a look at Ash's scaling, for one. It's not at the end of Journeys so it'd be somewhere between his Sun and Moon key and his Journeys key in terms of AP.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

...Might wanna take a look at Ash's scaling, for one. It's not at the end of Journeys so it'd be somewhere between his Sun and Moon key and his Journeys key in terms of AP.

Oh I was talking about the legendaries point specifically.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Multiples of a legendary isn’t exactly really indicative of being a species

Why not?

Correct me if I’m mistaken but I’m not sure what this clip is supposed to entail for this point? Articuno slapping down multiple non-legendaries wouldn’t mean this Articuno is a superior variant to other ones.

Pikachu in Journeys is like, god tier

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Pikachu in Journeys is like, god tier

Oh I see what you meant now, I got confused. For a sec I thought this was a diff Pikachu rather than Ashes. My mistake.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Oh I see what you meant now, I got confused. For a sec I thought this was a diff Pikachu rather than Ashes. My mistake.

No worries. But yeah, that's where the point of contention lies. It's Ash's Pikachu, who as we both know, is an absolute unit

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'm fine with a shared canon but pokemon can easily vary in strength through various factors. Especially if they're trained pokemon.

 

[Starsprite53]

I agree

 

[Eseseso]

Agree

 

[Arceus0x]

Freaking finally. Nobody was gonna properly apply the changes anyways especially since Ayewale never came back to finish the job.

Additionally I'd like to point out that the canon split changed...barely half the scaling excluding legendaries.
All pokedex entries are canon in all the series due to consistency and most of the scaling comes from it anyways. Literally the one feat that was used in main scaling that came from canon is my 7-B Dragonair calc that is now replaced by the 7-A scaling from the main game. The High 7-A calc from the manga was supporting of a pokedex feat and is now supporting of the 6-C Abomasnow feat.

There are changes to speed... Why? Because we just lacked feats for some stages. Literally that's it.

Hell, the cosmology was still shared which means its fully irrelevant to tier 2 and above.

I think that the one thing that might make sense is the legendary scaling but it was done poorly to the point where we got... 2-B Mew and Mewtwo... Yeah that happened. Unironically.

I think if we have issues with legendary scaling we should maybe consider a "varies from X to X" approach

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean Varies ratings just seem to make sense if we're considering these as species profiles

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with this. Also:

I think if we have issues with legendary scaling we should maybe consider a "varies from X to X" approach

You can't just slap a varies rating to characters who are inconsistent. There needs to be some explanation as to why it's that way (IE. a power source that can fluctuate in power or being able to create things as strong as they should be)

 

[Arceus0x]

I agree with this. Also:

You can't just slap a varies rating to characters who are inconsistent. There needs to be some explanation as to why it's that way (IE. a power source that can fluctuate in power or being able to create things as strong as they should be)

I mean we know that legendaries can be of a different level in the games, which directly represents power. Here's your fluctuation - they get stronger by themselves and aren't a constant.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You can't just slap a varies rating to characters who are inconsistent. There needs to be some explanation as to why it's that way (IE. a power source that can fluctuate in power or being able to create things as strong as they should be)

Again, if we're treating these as profiles of the species rather than an individual, then that's your reason

 

[Arceus0x]

Additionally we know legendaries have appeared in the wild at different levels, like Articuno being lvl 50 in Fire Red and lvl 70 in XY

 

[y3p_owo]

I agree

 

[SlendVeny]

This isn't even true within the same continuity. An Articuno in Journeys is much stronger than an Articuno from any other episode in the anime (as shown in this fight).

Is that a different Articuno, or the same one multiple series later?

 

[Arceus0x]

Is that a different Articuno, or the same one multiple series later?

it is presumably a different one since the older one got caught by Red

 

[SlendVeny]

Is that a different Articuno, or the same one multiple series later?

Nvm, just remembered Battle Frontier.

 

[Arceus0x]

Also the two articunos are like half an earth's diameter apart from each other so I think it's very much logical that they ain't the same. Either way it shows that they can be of different levels when encountered in the wild.

 

[SlendVeny]

it is presumably a different one since the older one got caught by Red

GENERATIONS IS CANON TO THE MAIN ANIME? I am so far behind.

 

[Arceus0x]

GENERATIONS IS CANON TO THE MAIN ANIME? I am so far behind.

idk actually, but most non-ash anime anime is directly released by the Pokemon company, usually on their official channel, so idk why it wouldn't be canon. It's not canon to the ash anime.

 

[SlendVeny]

idk actually, but most non-ash anime anime is directly released by the Pokemon company, usually on their official channel, so idk why it wouldn't be canon. It's not canon to the ash anime.

Oh, I thought you said it was canon to Journeys.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

All pokedex entries are canon in all the series due to consistency and most of the scaling comes from it anyways. Literally the one feat that was used in main scaling that came from canon is my 7-B Dragonair calc that is now replaced by the 7-A scaling from the main game. The High 7-A calc from the manga was supporting of a pokedex feat and is now supporting of the 6-C Abomasnow feat.

From the examples we have, the Pokedex entries used between different mediums is usually the exact same as specific versions from the games or a compilation of them. I believe Ayewhale said they were dramatically different, but that was simply untrue. These Pokedex entries do not vary substantively at all, so the intent that they literally aren't meant to be different across different mediums should be abundant moving forward.

 

[Arceus0x]

From the examples we have, the Pokedex entries used between different mediums is usually the exact same as specific versions from the games or a compilation of them. I believe Ayewhale said they were dramatically different, but that was simply untrue. These Pokedex entries do not vary substantively at all, so the intent that they literally aren't meant to be different across different mediums should be abundant moving forward.

Exactly. Although I'm pretty sure Ayewale did accept them as the same across all mediums.
Problem being, this undermines his own scaling because it proves to us that literal scientists, not the wacky ahh kids some people assume, but legitimate scientists that exist in the pokeverse, some that have energy scanning machines and such, have had the exact same conclusions about the pokemon in the wild as the other scientists in different mediums and thus in different timelines.
We already know that Pokemon across timelines in the anime don't change much either (think Ash's travel across the Guzzlord timelines and the mirror timelines where the pokemon of others aren't suddenly 20x weaker than they were before but are relatively similar in how they generally are).

So what do we have here?
-across all mediums scientists have the exact same conclusions about the exact same species, scientists that have futuristic tech.
-we know that pokemon haven't been shown to vary in power across different mediums
-characters from anime and manga, abilities from the anime and more have appeared in the mainline games (think Ash-Greninja, Ash's Gengar from Journeys being gifted to people, Ash-hat Pikachu, references to Alain existing, manga's Green appearing in game, whatever is going on in Pokemon Masters).
-Other mediums also directly influence the games.

Overall: the only time we ever have anything confusing is some of the legendary scaling, not even all of it, just a few bits and pieces of it.

 

[Bobsican]

Also worth noting that Pokémon that are notably different from "normal" ones in other timelines are just considered separate species altogether, case in point, Paradox Pokemon.

 

[Hypertornado099]

it is presumably a different one since the older one got caught by Red

Red isn't in the anime

 

[Arceus0x]

Red isn't in the anime

I am talking about Pokemon Generations rn, not to mention you can canonically complete the pokedex in the game which is acknowledged, and there is only one Articuno there

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Gonna give a few thoughts on something later, but just to bring up, I’m very largely certain there’s only one set of the bird trio in the anime.

 

[Thelastmlg]

like i said, is there any lore that points out multiple legendaries naturally existing without intervention from humans or other pokemon?

 

[Arceus0x]

like i said, is there any lore that points out multiple legendaries naturally existing without intervention from humans or other pokemon?

I think the fact that Galarian variants of the legendary birds exist proves that alone. Then there's the fact that the same area has temples with Regis in them, despite regis already existing and having temples in both Sinnoh and Hoenn.
There's the fact that the genie trio exists in Unova and Sinnoh.
In the anime we see that Lugia can reproduce as well as Latias/Latios.
We also see that there are many many regis across the entire anime with several people owning the same regis.
Same goes for Darkrais.
Ultra beasts are very much a species with literal planets filled with some of them.
Basically, quite a lot.

 

[SlendVeny]

Then there's the fact that the same area has temples with Regis in them, despite regis already existing and having temples in both Sinnoh and Hoenn.

The Regis aren't naturally occurring.

There's the fact that the genie trio exists in Unova and Sinnoh.

There are generations of time between those.

We also see that there are many many regis across the entire anime with several people owning the same regis.

Regigigas just straight up builds them, that's not all that odd.

Ultra beasts are very much a species with literal planets filled with some of them.

Not legendary.

 

[Arceus0x]

The Regis aren't naturally occurring.

I mean ig Regigigas shaped them but it proves there's more than one.

There are generations of time between those.

Ok and? Why would they randomly switch locations like that? Sinnoh has the lake trio.

Regigigas just straight up builds them, that's not all that odd.

Ok fair

Not legendary.

Legendary adjacent and there's also Solgaleo and Lunala who evolve from cosmogs of whom there are plenty.

 

[SlendVeny]

I mean ig Regigigas shaped them but it proves there's more than one.

Ok and? Why would they randomly switch locations like that?

They're known for roaming around.

Legendary adjacent

Not really

and there's also Solgaleo and Lunala who evolve from cosmogs of whom there are plenty.

Yeah, because they come from Ultra Space, which has a bunch of other dimensions in it.

 

[Arceus0x]

They're known for roaming around.

They are but they are also canonically caught in Legends Arceus

 

[SlendVeny]

They are but they are also canonically caught in Legends Arceus

Well, people die eventually