Mega Rayquaza downgrade

[y3p_owo]

In case you're wondering why I'm making this here and not on the Pokémon Revision thread, it's mostly because it's basically on life support at this point and this is more so to do with Rayquaza than the verse itself. (Also because I don't like their current stats on their page-) Now with that out of the way...

I've recently came to a realization: Mega Rayquaza's reasoning for Zygarde/Necrozma scaling is kinda ass ngl, even if we continued to keep the Pokémon profiles that aren't the Creation Trio + Arceus composited. Like here, take a look at this reasoning:

At least Galaxy level, possibly High Universe level (Vastly superior to its base. Effortlessly destroyed the Grand Meteor Delta, which would completely obliterate the planet. Stomped Deoxys, destroying even its Psycho Boost with no difficulty at all. Should be immensely stronger than Mega Mewtwo X/Y, as its base performed much better against Deoxys than Mewtwo did)

You see the issue with this? It solely relies on the theory that Mega Rayquaza is superior than Mega Mewtwo in lore because Base Rayquaza dealt with Deoxys quicker than Base Mewtwo. No statements, no them fighting, no implications of that being the case made by any person both in and out of universe, no nothing like that. Just pure assumptions based off of their inferior base forms.

So I suggest we replace it with "At least Planet level+, likely higher" for their Mega key, much like their Base key, for now until the Pokémon-verse revisions are finally finished due to there being very little evidence to support it.

But if this downgrade ultimately doesn't get accepted, then I suggest at the very least us giving them a possibly for the scaling in Rayquaza's Mega key instead of giving it to them straight up.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll ping Pokemon experts, @Starter_Pack @GyroNutz @SamanPatou @Bobsican @Gilad_Hyperstar @CloverDragon03 @CuddleFox @LordTracer @Spinoirr

 

[Spinoirr]

I mean there's supposed to be a games, anime, manga split for all pokemon profiles

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean the logic is simply that if Base Rayquaza > Base Mewtwo, then giving them both the exact same buff (Mega Evolution) would result in Mega Rayquaza > Mega Mewtwo X/Y

 

[CBslayeR]

i vote we nuke the verse instead


shake?


you and everyone else on vsbw:


yeaaaah i'm glad we all agree!!!!

 

[LordTracer]

Yeah, the OP doesn’t really give any reason why the current justification doesn’t work. If base Ray > base Mewtwo, it stands to reason that Rayquaza would still be superior to Mewtwo if they’re given the same amp of Mega Evolution.

 

[SlendVeny]

I'd recommend listing the values you use in the OP, Mega Evolution is a multiplier.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am agreeing with Tracer and Clover here.

 

[CBslayeR]

Yeah, the OP doesn’t really give any reason why the current justification doesn’t work. If base Ray > base Mewtwo, it stands to reason that Rayquaza would still be superior to Mewtwo if they’re given the same amp of Mega Evolution.

i think the issue lies in that Ray > Mewtwo is based on how fast they beat Deoxys which is flaky in of itself


also iirc there's no confirmed multiplier for mega evolutions

 

[CloverDragon03]

i think the issue lies in that Ray > Mewtwo is based on how fast they beat Deoxys which is flaky in of itself

At the absolute worst, Rayquaza would still be relative to Mewtwo, making Mega Rayquaza still relative to Mega Mewtwo X/Y

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Base Mewtwo and Base Rayquaza are within the same ball park. Likewise, their Mega forms would be within the same ball park by extension.

 

[CBslayeR]

Base Mewtwo and Base Rayquaza are within the same ball park. Likewise, their Mega forms would be within the same ball park by extension.

yeah the issue lies in scaling Mega Rayquaza above Mega Mewtwo when there's no evidence to back it up

 

[CloverDragon03]

yeah the issue lies in scaling Mega Rayquaza above Mega Mewtwo when there's no evidence to back it up

There is evidence. It's the exact same power-up, so if Base Rayquaza ~ Base Mewtwo, then why should Mega Mewtwo X/Y be > Mega Rayquaza? The logic doesn't add up. (Hell, Rayquaza's the first ever Mega Evolution if you wanna get real technical)

 

[CBslayeR]

There is evidence. It's the exact same power-up, so if Base Rayquaza ~ Base Mewtwo, then why should Mega Mewtwo X/Y be > Mega Rayquaza? The logic doesn't add up. (Hell, Rayquaza's the first ever Mega Evolution if you wanna get real technical)

Okay but what evidence is there for Mega Rayquaza > Mega Mewtwo? Both can be 3-C or whatever, but there was an issue addressing Mega Rayquaza being above Mega Mewtwo in the scaling chain also mentioned by OP

 

[CloverDragon03]

By this logic, I could just ask you what evidence there is for Mega Mewtwo being above Mega Rayquaza. There's no issue in the scaling chain, so I'm not sure what you mean

 

[CBslayeR]

By this logic, I could just ask you what evidence there is for Mega Mewtwo being above Mega Rayquaza. There's no issue in the scaling chain, so I'm not sure what you mean

I'm not pushing for Mega Mewtwo to be above.

Atm according to OP we have Mega Rayquaza > Mega Mewtwo, when in actuality it should be equal

 

[LordTracer]

Atm according to OP we have Mega Rayquaza > Mega Mewtwo, when in actuality it should be equal

Not unless you change how their bases scale in relation to each other. With how the profiles currently are, base Rayquaza > base Mewtwo, therefore Mega Rayquaza would be > Mega Mewtwo.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

yeah the issue lies in scaling Mega Rayquaza above Mega Mewtwo when there's no evidence to back it up

What you're basically trying to argue is, "Just because base Goku is comparable if not superior to base Vegeta doesn't mean SSB Goku is anywhere near as strong as SSB Vegeta."

 

[Cropfist]

When did Mewtwo fight Deoxys?

 

[CBslayeR]

The issue isn't how Mega Rayquaza is tiered or anything, it's just how Rayquaza in general scales above Mewtwo based on how he fast he defeated Deoxys.

For one there's zero scans on the profile to even support Deoxys being stomped by Rayquaza, they just say he stomped him.

For two scaling someone based on how they performed compared to another character is a little flaky, esp in a Pokemon sense where Deoxys and Mewtwo resist each others attacks and all that.

 

[Bobsican]

i think the issue lies in that Ray > Mewtwo is based on how fast they beat Deoxys which is flaky in of itself


also iirc there's no confirmed multiplier for mega evolutions

There may be no confirmed multiplier, but it seems implied to be equivalent across all cases, so Rayquaza being above Mewtwo would thus mean that Mega Rayquaza is above either Mega Mewtwo form.

https://bulbanews.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Nintendo_Dream_interview_reveals_new_mechanic_changes

The power-up of Mega Evolved Pokémon is meant to elevate them to the class of legendary Pokémon, hence the restriction of only one Pokémon being allowed to hold a Mega Stone during battles.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

He probably is gonna get higher again when splitting profiles but for now, where we use manga for most of the scaling, I agree

 

[y3p_owo]

When did Mewtwo fight Deoxys?

Pokémon Manga

I mean there's supposed to be a games, anime, manga split for all pokemon profiles

Yeah, but the revision thread has been taking at least 2 years to complete and is basically on life support atm, so I wanted to get this out of the way. (Honestly now that I think about it, maybe I should've try and make a new Rayquaza profile and hope it gets accepted.)

Honestly at this point I'm willing to take the L and have this thread be locked up. I've been struggling to come up with counters for those who disagree with the downgrade and what Bobsican linked kinda puts a hole in it too.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

boop

 

[GyroNutz]

Not all mega evolutions are equal. There's no single multiplier for them in the same way that there would be for a Super Saiyan transformation, as they depend on the Pokemon's own biology. We acknowledge this in our profiles as well - Beedrill, a Pokemon generally considered to be weak, is on par with other mega Pokemon when mega evolving itself. However, Mega Rayquaza should still be above Mega Mewtwo. Its mega evolution was of a far greater scale than Mewtwo's, requiring a city sized meteorite as a mega stone and the wishes of all the city's inhabitants as the bond. If we accept that base Rayquaza is above base Mewtwo, then it's logical that Mega Rayquaza is above Mega Mewtwo here.

 

[JJSliderman]

Tbf Rayquaza stomping Deoxys is kind of misleading, later in the movie Deoxys shows up and gives Rayquaza a pretty hard time iirc.

 

[CloverDragon03]

This has been soundly rejected by multiple staff members, so this thread can be closed

 

[Lou_change]

the problem is Mewtwo doesn't use the standard 2x multiplier for mega evolution we can't just says they are equal because they both fought Deoxys, Deoxys also fought mega Rayquaza at best I think you have them slowing the tree of life together in mystery dungeon.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well, again, the thread's been handily rejected by the staff, so it should've been closed weeks ago

 

[Armorchompy]

The first part of Gyro's argument makes sense to me, but I don't like to assume it's an equal boost for no reason, and I don't think the method should inherently imply it's superior for that, especially since if we're still treating them as composites it doesn't have such a requirement in the games. (In fact it lacks the usual requirement)

 

[CloverDragon03]

The first part of Gyro's argument makes sense to me, though. I don't like to assume it's an equal boost for no reason, and I don't think the method should inherently imply it's superior for that, especially since if we're still treating them as composites it doesn't have such a requirement in the games. (In fact it lacks the usual requirement)

I mean if we want to talk about Pokemon biology, Rayquaza would naturally have a stronger Mega Evolution. Its Mega Evolution came about via consuming a Meteorite rather than a simple Mega Stone, and it was (if I remember correctly) the first Mega Evolution.

Now admittedly, the canon split has yet to be applied (atp it's never getting applied) so this'll end up being moot eventually, but for now, I don't think this downgrade really makes sense.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean if we want to talk about Pokemon biology, Rayquaza would naturally have a stronger Mega Evolution. Its Mega Evolution came about via consuming a Meteorite rather than a simple Mega Stone, and it was (if I remember correctly) the first Mega Evolution.

Unless there is some lore I'm not aware of, I don't see a reason that would inherently make it more powerful, it just seems to me like it's a different power source.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Unless there is some lore I'm not aware of, I don't see a reason that would inherently make it more powerful, it just seems to me like it's a different power source.

As Gyro has pointed out, Mega Rayquaza's source was not just greater in scope (a giant meteorite vs. a smaller stone), but the "bond between a person and a Pokemon" component was on a greater scale too - being the wishes of all the people rather than just a singular Trainer. Everything points to it being a superior Mega Evolution

 

[Armorchompy]

As Gyro has pointed out, Mega Rayquaza's source was not just greater in scope (a giant meteorite vs. a smaller stone), but the "bond between a person and a Pokemon" component was on a greater scale too - being the wishes of all the people rather than just a singular Trainer. Everything points to it being a superior Mega Evolution

Size =/= power (Mega Stones are, by game canon, born of the X/Y legends' power, which means Rayquaza fed on something completely unrelated) and the greater amount of people behind it is not a requirement (at least not in the greater canon), as seen by ORAS, where one trainer is enough to mega-evolve Rayquaza. Here, he even mega-evolves without any human intervention.

 

[LordTracer]

We acknowledge this in our profiles as well - Beedrill, a Pokemon generally considered to be weak, is on par with other mega Pokemon when mega evolving itself.

That goes off the notion that Beedrill is weak compared to other fully evolved Pokemon, which the profile doesn’t really provide any evidence for, nor is there any reason to assume such a thing as far as I know.

 

[Armorchompy]

That goes off the notion that Beedrill is weak compared to other fully evolved Pokemon, which the profile doesn’t really provide any evidence for, nor is there any reason to assume such a thing as far as I know.

There's a trainer in bugsy's gym that says that verbatim, if memory serves. Give me a few minutes to look.

 

[Armorchompy]

There's a trainer in bugsy's gym that says that verbatim, if memory serves. Give me a few minutes to look.

Eh, not as explicit as I remembered, though I feel the implication is there:

(Before the fight) "Bug Pokemon evolve young. So they get stronger that much faster."
(When beaten) "Just evolving isn't enough!"

Still I feel like saying a Beedrill is on the same level of power as a Garchomp is quite silly, but if that's what the standards say I'll relent.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Size =/= power (Mega Stones are, by game canon, born of the X/Y legends' power, which means Rayquaza fed on something completely unrelated) and the greater amount of people behind it is not a requirement (at least not in the greater canon), as seen by ORAS, where one trainer is enough to mega-evolve Rayquaza. Here, he even mega-evolves without any human intervention.

I don't think either of these things really change anything, by virtue of being incorrect or otherwise.

For the size =/= power part, the X/Y legend thing is just one hypothesis. ORAS reveals that it's also possibly due to a meteor shower, with the meteorites being filled with the same Mega Evolution energy and Rayquaza being the very first Mega Evolution. Size would in fact matter here, as a larger meteorite means it would contain more Mega Evolution energy than any other Mega Stone.

As for the wish part, disregarding the fact that multiple wishes are just naturally > one wish, Mega Evolving without human intervention is a bit of weird thing and is honestly pretty self-contradictory given that a key facet of Mega Evolution is the bond between people and Pokemon. I'm really not sure how to evaluate a case like that. As for the ORAS game thing, even given that, the previous points about the size of the meteorite would still make this a more potent Mega Evolution.

 

[Armorchompy]

For the size =/= power part, the X/Y legend thing is just one hypothesis. ORAS reveals that it's also possibly due to a meteor shower, with the meteorites being filled with the same Mega Evolution energy and Rayquaza being the very first Mega Evolution. Size would in fact matter here, as a larger meteorite means it would contain more Mega Evolution energy than any other Mega Stone.

Provided that theory is correct, provided it's made of the exact same material as mega stones, with the same density of power, provided Rayquaza has full access to that power despite having digested that stone rather than holding it freely, there's a lot of assumptions here. And if he did have that power at his disposal, why would he also need to know Dragon Ascent to unlock that mega evolution, which normal pokemon do not need?

As for the wish part, disregarding the fact that multiple wishes are just naturally > one wish, Mega Evolving without human intervention is a bit of weird thing and is honestly pretty self-contradictory given that a key facet of Mega Evolution is the bond between people and Pokemon. I'm really not sure how to evaluate a case like that. As for the ORAS game thing, even given that, the previous points about the size of the meteorite would still make this a more potent Mega Evolution.

Mega Evolving with a great sum of wishes is also self-contradictory as a requirement, given that there's various showings of that not being the case. Just looking around shows Mega Ray mega evolving with just the help of a trainer (or no trainers at all) in various forms of media.

Wild Pokemon mega evolving is also not a unique case, Mewtwo does as much in the Genesect movie if memory serves.

 

[LordTracer]

Eh, not as explicit as I remembered, though I feel the implication is there:

(Before the fight) "Bug Pokemon evolve young. So they get stronger that much faster."
(When beaten) "Just evolving isn't enough!"

Still I feel like saying a Beedrill is on the same level of power as a Garchomp is quite silly, but if that's what the standards say I'll relent.

Yeah, I don’t really see that as solid evidence to say it‘s significantly weaker than other fully evolved Pokemon.