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Pokemon God Tier actual Revisions

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Kepekley23 said:
The Causality said:
IIRC Dialga has been affected by the Time Paradox in Mystery Dungeon but this feat has been rejected because Dialga has many Acausality's feat

If those acausality's feat are no longer valid, The mystery dungeon feat is applicable?
Click to expand...
Yep. I have been arguing against acausal Dialga based on this feat since 2017
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I think they would still Type Acausality at least since they predate time

Type 1: Time Paradox Immunity:Characters with this type of Acausality are rendered immune to changes in the past and standard temporal paradoxes, but remain just as vulnerable in the present and can be affected by normal Causality Manipulation and similar abilities.
 
Uh, none of them predate time with the exception of Arceus and even if they did (which they don't), that doesn't mean acausality in the slightest.
 
Heck.

Arceus and the Jewel of life already proves that the gods arent acausal.
 
None because the time loop actually affects Giratina.

And the other two scans don't have anything in them.
 
Arceus is shown as potentially acausal on PMD, so it depends on which you take as more canon.

Gonna go with PMD.
 
The Causality said:
Can we really treat entire movies as PIS? it's a bit too much
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It depends on the movie's PIS and personally, Arceus and the Jewel of life is the worst PIS movie that I have ever seen.
 
>Using that film to disprove anything related to the CT


Eh. So you only pick the instances that support your arguments, dismiss the rest as PIS and call it a day? Huh.
 
So type 1 Acausality for only Arceus? Seems fair

Anyways:

Self-Sustenence (Types 1, 2 and 3) for Arceus, LT and CT

Abstract Existence (Type 3) for Arceus, LT and CT

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) for Arceus

Avatar Creation for Arceus and CT

Creation for LT

Acausality (Type 1) for Arceus

Higher-Dimensional Existence for Arceus and CT

Also, if the CT isn't a type 1 Abstract, should they still be omnipresent "existing throughout the entirety of time/space/antimatter"?
 
CT are only omnipresent towards what they embody and nothing else. It gives them nigh-omnipresence instead. This was accepted in the CRT
 
Higher-Dimensional Existence for Arceus, CT, and LT was accepted in the lasted thread
 
@Nedge

The whole purpose of this thread is to re-discuss the last one. But the LT aren't Higher-D until proven otherwise. Only Arceus and the CT are.
 
RotofBots said:
@Nedge
The whole purpose of this thread is to re-discuss the last one. But the LT aren't Higher-D until proven otherwise. Only Arceus and the CT are.
Click to expand...
I am just saying it should be put in the OP for discussion
 
RotofBots said:
@Nedge
The whole purpose of this thread is to re-discuss the last one. But the LT aren't Higher-D until proven otherwise. Only Arceus and the CT are.
Click to expand...
Uxie+Mesprit+Azelf = one of Dialga or Palkia. This is only a possibility if the LT is also 4-D.
 
RotofBots said:
@Zeifyl
True, but only in power. In the games, they're blatantly shown to be 3-D.
Click to expand...
It was... Platinum that confirmed them to be 4-D, via being equal to 33% of a CT member.
 
RotofBots said:
@Zeifyl
Scans please. The burden of proof is on you to prove it's in both power and Higher-Dimensional Existence...
Click to expand...
As proof, I present to you Occam's Razor. Considering how obscenely far into the 4-D range they are, and that they are pretty much the "Younger siblings" of the Creation Trio, it is immensely more likely that they are 4-D than that they are 3-D with 4-D power.
 
Firstly, due to your lack of evidence, you're now resorting to "Occams Razor" to support you. But if anything, my proposal takes less assumptions and is more likely and shown in the series (you still haven't shown any scans/evidence btw). So if anything Occam's Razor agrees with me.

Occams Razor in this case can be broken down into two separate points:

  1. The LT are 3-D with 4-D power because they are only portrayed as 3-D in the games and have never have been shown to have a 4-D body
  2. The LT have 4-D existences because they are obscenely far into the 4-D power range and that they are pretty much the "Younger siblings" of the CT
My proposal has far less assumptions than yours. But nonetheless, I'll argue your points.

  • As proof, I present to you Occam's Razor. Considering how obscenely far into the 4-D range they are
They're not even that far into 4-D tho... They're not even that far into 2-B in general. And as stated on the Higher-Dimensional Existence page Higher-Dimensional Power =/= Higher Dimensionality. So this point is moot.

  • they are pretty much the "Younger siblings" of the Creation Trio, it is immensely more likely that they are 4-D than that they are 3-D with 4-D power.
Ok? Just proves that they're comparable in power not dimensionality. If you could show a scan showing or stating they're 4-D that'd be great but so far in the manga, anime and games, they' physically shown to be 3-D.
 
RotofBots said:
Firstly, due to your lack of evidence, you're now resorting to "Occams Razor" to support you. But if anything, my proposal takes less assumptions and is more likely and shown in the series (you still haven't shown any scans/evidence btw). So if anything Occam's Razor agrees with me.
Click to expand...
Correct, if we go by a Gameplay perspective. Incorrect, if we go by a Lore perspective.

If we go by a Lore perspective, it goes like this:

I am assuming Arceus only creates in 4-D, because there is only feats of Arceus creating in 4-D.

You are assuming Arceus, in this particular case, chose to create in 3-D, but still gave them 4-D power and 4-D hax.


RotofBots said:
They're not even that far into 4-D tho...
Click to expand...
They are, though. They are very far into the Uncountable range. This is a requirement for being comparable to the CT.
 
@Zeifyl

Uncountable universes is is cool and all but not even close to being "high 4-D" lol. Being 2-A (which is infinitely higher than 2-B) is not even considered "high 4-D" as you could go to infinite^infinite. So unless you think Arceus is 2-A, he isn't "high 4-D". Thispoint is moot anyways.

Your entire argument hinges on "Arceus creates 4-D stuff so he made the LT 4-D!" when the only that supports it is your own interpretation. There are countless times when the LT are explicitly shown to be 3-D in the anime, manga and games which you are blatantly ignoring to suit your interpretation. It's not just "gameplay", it's in other media as well. The difference between the CT and LT is that the CT have quotes and showings that make them 4-D.

You still haven't provided anything beyond evidence that is borderline "theory-crafting". Explicit showings > unclear statements. Burden of proof is on you.
 
RotofBots said:
@Zeifyl
Uncountable universes is is cool and all but not even close to being "high 4-D" lol. Being 2-A (which is infinitely higher than 2-B) is not even considered "high 4-D" as you could go to infinite^infinite. So unless you think Arceus is 2-A, he isn't "high 4-D". Thispoint is moot anyways.

Your entire argument hinges on "Arceus creates 4-D stuff so he made the LT 4-D!" when the only that supports it is your own interpretation. There are countless times when the LT are explicitly shown to be 3-D in the anime, manga and games which you are blatantly ignoring to suit your interpretation. It's not just "gameplay", it's in other media as well. The difference between the CT and LT is that the CT have quotes and showings that make them 4-D.

You still haven't provided anything beyond evidence that is borderline "theory-crafting". Explicit showings > unclear statements. Burden of proof is on you.
Click to expand...
It is explained in the Pokemon Mythology link that I posted numerous times whose texts are from the Pokemon Platinum Games. LT share the same nature as the CT. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...eus)_Final_Part_(Completed)#Pokemon_Mythology

Pokemon Mythology

Arceus's Myth:

The Original Story describes how the Pokémon world was created.

" In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of chaos. At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg. Having tumbled from the vortex, the egg gave rise to the Original One.
From itself, two beings the Original One did make. Time started to spin. Space began to expand. From itself again,three living things the Original One did make. The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be. The three living things wished, and form them, spirit came to be. The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...
"
~ The Original Story

The Original One obviously refers to Arceus. Also, the two beings that Arceus makes are Dialga and Palkia (Time and Space).

Once again, as stated here as well as in the manga, the Creation Trio are just small parts of Arceus.

Arceus creates three living things as well, which are Uxie, Azelf, and Mesprit (Knowledge, Willpower and Emotion) the only Pokémon which can control Dialga and Palkia. Arceus thereafter went into the Hall of Origin in its own dimension to wait for the Azure Flute to be played.

Lake Trio are also parts of Arceus.

According to Cynthia in Platinum, Giratina was created along with Dialga and Palkia. However, it was forgotten.

" If I had to explain very simply, I study how people came to be. That could explain why I happen to be in Sinnoh. In Sinnoh, there is a myth on how the world came into existence. Investigating that myth may give me insight on the emergence of people. I found something very interesting soon after arrival. You may have it, if you'd like. "
~ Arceus's myth
" I'm told that Plate was created at the same time as Sinnoh.
The plate I found bears this inscription."The rightful bearer of a Plate draws from the Plate it holds" The rightful bearer, I think, may point to the shaper of this world. Oh, by the way, I'm only interested in the words and thoughts left behind. Physical artifacts like that Plate don't interest me once I've read them. I hope we meet again somewhere.
"
" Well, hello! We meet again! After we parted, I went from Oreburgh, to Hearthome, Celestic, then Eterna. Yes, the town and cities surrounding the foot of Mt. Coronet. Why the fascination with Mt. Coronet, you may ask? Well Mt. Coronet happens to be called "The origin of Sinnoh." I learned many things on my journey. Would you like to hear them?The way I see it, our world began when the spirit within people was born. When that spirit came to be, there followed awareness about the world. Within the newborn spirit, time and space were intertwined as one. "


" People and Pokémon, too, were but the same presence. As I understand it, people and Pokémon shared the spirit and awareness. They should have understood and accepted each other then. Because they shared the same spirit, people and Pokémon intermingled. People took the place of Pokémon, and the opposite also held true. That interpretation could give us an idea about how our world came to be. "


" A Pokémon is said to have shaped this world. Could that Pokémon be the physical form of the original spirit? "
Implying the entity Arceus, is in fact, an Avatar. A physical manifestation that allows it (The Original Spirit) to interact with a lower plane of existence, the Multiverse.


" Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space...And they lead back to Arceus, the Pokémon that made them arise. "
A common mistake people make in the interpretation of the myth. The "spirit" isn't Arceus. The spirit, or rather newfound spirit" refers to the Lake Trio.

Arceus was explained later, as "The Original Spirit", where it all (Spirit, Time, Space and the World) began.


" Oh, there were also Plates, weren't there? One Plate read "Three beings were born to bond time and space."Those three beings I read to mean the three Pokémon of the lakes. It's about Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf. The myth describes how they gave spirit to the world, shaping it. "
Time and Space, entwined as one in this newfound spirit could refer to the Lake Trio's control over Palkia and Dialga. The anime's interpretation is a little more literal in that they "binded" time and space via creation of Portals.


" But it all starts with Arceus, the first. It is known as the Original One. Oh, by the way, I wrote down the words engraved on those Plates. I summarized them in a book and donated it to this library,There it is in that bookshelf. I'd be pleased if you'd read it. I have to say, I'm glad I came out to Sinnoh. I suppose I'd better be off in search of new myths in faraway lands. It would be nice if our paths were to cross again. "
~ Arceus's Myth

The following is a collection of engravings from ancient Plates found in Sinnoh.


" The Original One breathed alone before the universe came. When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate. The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate. Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One. Three beings were born to bind time and space. Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world. "
The Lake Trio gave spirit to the World, aiding in its Creation, as the Creation Trio also made matter.

" The powers of Plates are shared among Pokémon. The rightful bearer of a Plate draws from the Plate it holds.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Going by his posts, he seems to be taking a break from the wiki in general.
Click to expand...
Rip.....keep bumping this thread until he comes back?

I'd rather have his thoughts on this first before we made final decisions and be allowed to continue vs threads with Arceus and the dragon trio. (No new vs threads should be made until this resolves, and any ongoing ones should be closed, imo.)
 
Concerning Acausality, isn't Dialga get a sort of Limited Type 4? if he is time itself, he is always in the past/present and future no? but the problem, it's the fact that Time paradox affect him.
 
Again, Dialga is never stated nor implied anywhere to be omnipresent through the timeline. He is only omnipresent inside his own dimension.
 
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