Pokemon God Tier actual Revisions

[DMB_1]

But what you embody being messed up after your death kind of is, in a way.

 

[Elizhaa]

Also for Acauslity (Type 4), in the distortion world, Time doesn't flow, space is unstable.

 

[Kepekley23]

It's not an ability they can yield, though. It's just them dying and the thing they represent getting messed with it.

 

[RotofBots]

Also for Acauslity (Type 4), in the distortion world, Time doesn't flow, space is unstable.

That's just a type 2 Void which don't give Acausality type 4.

 

[Elizhaa]

Also for Acauslity (Type 4), in the distortion world, Time doesn't flow, space is unstable.

That's just a type 2 Void which don't give Acausality type 4.

This has nothing to do with Void as Giratina's world is not referred to as such.

No, Acausilty Type 4 required a different system of Acausilty and this evidence for it.

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Nedge do you mind reverting your edits until this thread is finished?

R.I.P. hard work. I will see what I can do.

 

[Kaltias]

Time not flowing and space being unstable is like, completely unrelated to causality

 

[RotofBots]

@Nedge

No, it states on the Timeless Voids Standards that the Distortion World is an Insubstantial Void. I'm not pulling this from nowhere.

And as for Acausality type 4, we have never given a character this just because "time doesn't flow". Its completely unrelated.

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, regarding Dialga and Palkia's acausality, I have said this before and I'll say it again: they were both outright going to be wiped out by a temporal paradox alongside the rest of the timeline in Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Time, and Arceus had to save Dialga and everyone else from it, as Dialga stated himself.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

"Also, if we assume Type 1 is a thing, while Dialga and Palkia might not be killed by having their physical avatars killed, it's important to note that even then you wouldn't need to mess with the concepts of time and space to kill them."

I think this is moreso proof that the concepts they embody are type 3 and not type 2, as a type 3 concept can be destroyed indirectly as it is bound to the objects that make up the concept.

Overall I'm neutral about how this goes down.

 

[Elizhaa]

On Giratina'S Profile:

Acausality (Seemingly unaffected by a Time loop within the Distortion World though it could not travel outside it, is completely unaffected by the strange laws of its own world, unlike those who venture into it),

 

[DMB_1]

"Also, if we assume Type 1 is a thing, while Dialga and Palkia might not be killed by having their physical avatars killed, it's important to note that even then you wouldn't need to mess with the concepts of time and space to kill them."

I think this is moreso proof that the concepts they embody are type 3 and not type 2, as a type 3 concept can be destroyed indirectly as it is bound to the objects that make up the concept.

Overall I'm neutral about how this goes down.

No, that outright proves it.

If Dialga and Palkia were type 1 abstract of a type 3 concept, you'd have to damage directly space and time to harm them, and destroy them to kill them.

However, if those already get vastly unstable if their avatars are destroyed, that would mean that the relation between them and what they embody isn't so direct.

The only thing you could argue against this, is that Arcues would be able to separate a concept from ti's personality and identity, and binding it to something else.

 

[Xerkser500]

I don't have an opinion about the topics the OP brought up, but I saw something here I think I should point out.

While it's true the Red Chain is supposed to bind Dialga and Palkia to the lower plane of existence at their full power, nothing at all proves this is an outright automatic process and the episode of the D/P anime proves this to be the case. When Dialga and Palkia appeared as the "Space-stuff" when first brought forth, they werent fully binded to the lower plane as of yet. Cyrus had to actively amp or draw more power from the Red Chain to completely summon forth the 2 after Ash, Dawn and Brock freed the Lake Trio from the process.

So those 2 appearing differently isn't because "its just a few seconds". They were in the middle of being summoned.

 

[Kaltias]

The entire plot of the movie where Giratina gets time looped revolves around the fact that the loop does its job perfectly though

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

When you put it that way.

Yeah this is looking like type 3 abstract existence.

 

[Dragopentling]

@Dragopentling.

You missed this thread's point by a large margin. And if my original title had been left untouched, you'd have seen that my problem isnt with the upgrades, but WITH HOW THEY WERE DONE.


Do I need to quote myself in the first comments? Because I clearly stated that my issue is the procedure, not if Arceus is abstract or not.

Okay, makes sense. But here's the thing...you'd have to do this same thing with revisions for all the other verses on this site, to make it fair, with this same sort of issues. I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be hard to find at least one with "slapped-on" abilities without context and such. Also, regardless, this is still directly in response to a redux thread that was never supposed to occur. I'm perplexed that this and "slapped-on" abilities (not just the Poke verse....for any verse) were so casually allowed in the first place. I don't want to sound like a jerk nitpicking on this, but I want to stress it because it's not just particular Pokémon threads that get affected, but any vs thread in particular due to debates when loosely tagged-on skills were put into play and made the difference. If the actions were already taken as of right now to the subject of my inquiry, then we're good.

 

[Xerkser500]

The entire plot of the movie where Giratina gets time looped revolves around the fact that the loop does its job perfectly though

If just preventing Giratina from physically leaving it's realm, sure the loop does its job.

But it didnt do anything else to Giratina besides that. And there's always the argument that Dialga's time manip is just that great.

 

[Dragopentling]

If just preventing Giratina from physically leaving it's realm, sure the loop does its job.

But it didnt do anything else to Giratina besides that. And there's always the argument that Dialga's time manip is just that great.

The anime versions of the creation trios are not well depicted, tbf. If anything, it looked more like Giratina was being "forcefielded"...at least to me, it did.

 

[DMB_1]

@Dragopent

In fiction (and in philosophy), the nature of concepts can be vastly different, hence why the page for Conceptual Manipulation divides concepts into multiple types.

Same thing with Abstract Existence.

 

[Elizhaa]

@Nedge do you mind reverting your edits until this thread is finished?

R.I.P. hard work. I will see what I can do.

Done

 

[Xerkser500]

The anime versions of the creation trios are not well depicted, tbf. If anything, it looked more like Giratina was being "forcefielded"...at least to me, it did.

The literal only thing the timeloop did to Giratina was prevent it from physically leaving the Distortion World. And it only came into effect when Giratina tried leaving.

Thats it. It didnt prevent Giratina from doing anything else, just the former. Thats why Giratina went after Shaymin in the first place.

 

[Dragopentling]

@Dragopent

In fiction (and in philosophy), the nature of concepts can be vastly different, hence why the page for Conceptual Manipulation divides concepts into multiple types.

Same thing with Abstract Existence.

Yes, I was aware of that. But quite often with some verses, the context of such abilities like that in anime, game, or manga/LN form can be really vague. That's what I was trying to say in the previous comment that got removed (because it was deemed "off topic").

 

[Dragopentling]

Thats it. It didnt prevent Giratina from doing anything else, just the former. Thats why Giratina went after Shaymin in the first place.

Exactly. Whatever Dialga casted on Giratina was a conditional effect (or curse, if you wanna call it). Giratina can do ANYTHING else EXCEPT leave its world. Somehow Shaymin supposedly has the ability to undo the curse, hence why, like you said, Giratina was literally trying to kidnap it.

 

[Dragopentling]

R.I.P. hard work. I will see what I can do.
Done

Now thou can discuss to your heart's content.

 

[Xerkser500]

It wasnt because Shaymin's seed flare had some special power but because it gave Giratina an alternate way out, which as a result, shatters Dialga's timeloop.

 

[PaChi2]

R.I.P. hard work. I will see what I can do.
Done

Thank you!

 

[Dragopentling]

It wasnt because Shaymin's seed flare had some special power but because it gave Giratina an alternate way out, which as a result, shatters Dialga's timeloop.

So apparently Seed Flare has multi dimensional effects....deus ex machina much? I personally thought it seemed way too convenient a plot device. But then again, it's frigging Pokémon anime, they toss every PIS content wherever they can.

 

[Dragopentling]

PaChi2 wrote: @Nedge do you mind reverting your edits until this thread is finished?

R.I.P. hard work. I will see what I can do.
</div> Done </div>

Thank you! </div>

Delete or close any vs threads yet that implemented those abilities from the previous version of Arceus's profile? It's your call, sir.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Perhaps turn the quoting down a peg, @Dragon? Or just snip the messages so they aren't taking this much space.

 

[Dragopentling]

Perhaps turn the quoting down a peg, @Dragon? Or just snip the messages so they aren't taking this much space.

My bad....lemme fix that.

 

[Xerkser500]

Anyway, back to my original point.

The "different forms" Dialga and Palkia partake when they were summoned in the anime were not there just for simple kicks. It was because they were not yet fully summoned into the lower plane of existence. Evidence of this comes from the fact that when Ash, Dawn and Brock free the Lake Trio from the summoning process, they start to fade away. Cyrus had to actively amp or draw more power from the Red Chain in order for the summoning process to be completed, even without the LT.

Whether this changes the Type 1, 2, 3 abstract stuff (complicated as hell to me, but im new here, so i'll just deal) above isnt my concern. Im just pointing out something that feel needed explanation.

 

[Dragopentling]

@Xerkser500

Idk for sure,but I personally don't think it should change too much, because the Red Chain is originally from a being vastly superior to the dragon trio themselves, though I'm not sure if it's safe to say that said being (Arceus) is on a technically higher plane of existence than them.

 

[Executor_N0]

So apparently Seed Flare has multi dimensional effects....deus ex machina much?

It's because in the Distortion World the Seed Flare used the space-time distortion as source of energy. With normal pollution it's just a simple explosion, but when is a space-time pollution, then it's a space-time explosion.

About the thread, I can talk about this after I read all of this.

 

[Dragopentling]

It's because in the Distortion World the Seed Flare used the space-time distortion as source of energy. With normal pollution it's just a simple explosion, but when is a space-time pollution, then it's a space-time explosion.

About the thread, I can talk about this after I read all of this.

Ahhh, so Dialga's timeloop "curse" could be considered part of the space-time pollution?

 

[Xerkser500]

It's because in the Distortion World the Seed Flare used the space-time distortion as source of energy. With normal pollution it's just a simple explosion, but when is a space-time pollution, then it's a space-time explosion.

Not "distortion" but pollution as bi-products of the Distortion World repairing space-time in the multiverse.

But other than this small tid bit, you are correct. Honestly, not to steer off topic but wouldnt absorbing space-time toxic clouds to unleash those kinds of effects in an explosion give Shaymin potentially much higher results? And because it's 100% relient on a power source to give it that, it wouldnt scale to anyone at all.

 

[Elizhaa]

So, what's this here about now?

The Thread ?

 

[Kepekley23]

What is this here about now?

Hard question. Everyone should be asked that.

 

[Zeifyl]

What's being discussed, and what are the current verdicts?

 

[Elizhaa]

What is this here about now?
Hard question. Everyone should be asked that.

I guess rediscussions of the what was accepted from a previous evaluation.

 

[Enryu_The_Red_Tower]

So, did we come to a conclusion?