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Pokemon God Tier actual Revisions

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The Causality said:
How Dialga/Palkia/Giratina/Arceus are Type 1 if they have physical avatars?
Click to expand...
This is what the argument is based on:

  • Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars
 
Because the avatars aren't supposedly their true form.

Granted, I don't always get why characters with avatar creation automatically get type 9 immortality, even if they haven' shown to be able to immediately re-create them, or if the CT actually needs avatars to fight or not.
 
This is what the argument is based on:

  • Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars
Neither Dialga nor Palkia qualify for any of that.

They do qualify for:

  • Embodies an abstraction, but the destruction of the former isn't needed in order to destroy or affect them. These characters do not rely on the abstraction to survive, but thanks to their affinity with it, they are able to manipulate it.
 
Type 9 immortality was a thing in the past- 2 years ago and now it is pretty synonymous to Abstract Existence Type 1 currently. For example, Madoka had Type 9 Immortality to Abstract Existence Type 1.
 
DMB 1 said:
Because the avatars aren't supposedly their true form.

Granted, I don't always get why characters with avatar creation automatically get type 9 immortality, even if they haven' shown to be able to immediately re-create them, or if the CT actually needs avatars to fight or not.
Click to expand...
This is a thing?
 
Arceus is the only one who maybe, just maybe has a Type 1 implication and even then it's ambiguous enough that it could be interpreted differently.
 
Nedge1000 said:
Type 9 immortality was a thing in the past- 2 years ago and now it is pretty synonymous to Abstract Existence Type 1 currently.
Click to expand...
No?

A type 1 abstract can have type 9 immortality, but it isn't always the case
 
@Kaltias

What is your stance since you're fairly knowledgeable about the different types of abstraction?
 
The scan is talking about the plates being part of Arceus' body, not the CT.
 
The Unown are also parts of Arceus. That means nothing other than the fact he created the CT.
 
My point about the CT is that if the are created from Arceus being they should share its abstract nature from it too.

TriforcePower1 said:
<s/>The entire Pokémon verse is a part of Arceus </div>

My text: The Arceus and CT created the verse to as the link as shown prove it
Click to expand...
 
That's...bad reasoning, unless every single Pokémon and human out there can destroy abstracts via destroying molecules with every step they make.
 
In my defense for participating in that thread towards the end, I was summoned later and I thought such topics were discussed all along the way and gave my opinion on what was presented.

However, the Concept Manip didn't get added, did it? No one agreed on upgrading anything conceptual about the PokeGods.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
The entire Pokémon verse is a part of Arceus </div>
Click to expand...

My text ( is this meant to be a different response): The Arceus and CT created the verse to as the link as shown prove it. I am not sure everything is part of Arceus since Arceus and CT created everything but I do know Arceus has Omnipresence and the scans the CT was created from its being
 
Kepekley23 said:
The Unown are also parts of Arceus. That means nothing other than the fact he created the CT.
Click to expand...
I don't remember this, do you have the scans?
 
Gonna rant here, because it's the same bullcrap over and over. Not directed to anyone in particular, mind you.

What does it matter anymore? Once something is given an abstract or conceptual nature, even giving "types" of abstract/conceptual natures is not gonna halt some of the more ridiculous debates of "yes he can, no he can't". With most particular franchises not really going in proper detail about conceptual and/or abstract existences as well as they could've, it's already complicated as it is, and yet it seems that this site has for the most part accepted that, regardless. I mean, we can try doing calcs and shit, but with stuff on multiversal level and up, there's no true and proper way to measure them...only assumptions via quotes, lines, etc. At this rate, I'd rather leave it as it is.

I'm not saying Pachi is completely wrong, though. Funny, though, I do think the thread that this one was made in response to was out of retaliation or isolated objection to a certain VS thread who existence I'm all too aware of. That redux thread should've never been started.

Btw, besides, I could easily question the same kind of stuff for, persay, something like Digimon, under the same conditions and circumstances, but I'm not, because the same kind of roundabout arguments are gonna turn up anyway. So like I said, leave it as it is until someone can actually bring proof or scans to completely confirm or overturn it.
 
Huh, you'd think Cal would come here eventually.
 
Does evidence for Type 1 (for the CT), like...exist? Not diminishing anyone's opinions, just asking: is there even one statement outright suggesting as much? With anyone talking about avatars?
 
@Dragopentling.

You missed this thread's point by a large margin. And if my original title had been left untouched, you'd have seen that my problem isnt with the upgrades, but WITH HOW THEY WERE DONE.

Do I need to quote myself in the first comments? Because I clearly stated that my issue is the procedure, not if Arceus is abstract or not.
 
When Cyrus binds Palkia and Dialga with the Red Chains, an incorporeal mass of space-looking stuff forms around then chains before their Pokemon forms pop in them.

That and Arceus can create bodies for them to use out of Unown. The only one who doesn't have Type 1 Abstraction evidence is Arceus, since he pretty much always appears as a llama.
 
@Nedge do you mind reverting your edits until this thread is finished?
 
> When Cyrus binds Palkia and Dialga with the Red Chains, an incorporeal mass of space-looking stuff forms around then chains before their Pokemon forms pop in them.

How is this evidence of Type 1 abstraction...?
 
@Kep

Because they aren't the Pokémon forms, but rather something different that just use Pokémon forms as avatars.
 
How does Dialga and Palkia looking different for a couple seconds imply that? Especially when the Red Chain is explicitly stated to bind the Pokémon forms (which are Dialga and Palkia at their full-power), so that doesn't mash with what we know.

The only non-corporeal form they have is when they are on their respective dimensions.
 
Type 1 abstraction would require evidence of the "something different" being the concept they embody though.

If it's the scene i'm thinking about they look more like pure energy or something like that than anything else
 
Kepekley23 said:
Does evidence for Type 1 (for the CT), like...exist? Not diminishing anyone's opinions, just asking: is there even one statement outright suggesting as much? With anyone talking about avatars?
Click to expand...
Nedge1000 said:
The pokemon verse tends to be filled with Statements, to be honest, most are from Pokemon Platinum:
Click to expand...
 
Also, if we assume Type 1 is a thing, while Dialga and Palkia might not be killed by having their physical avatars killed, it's important to note that even then you wouldn't need to mess with the concepts of time and space to kill them. Their avatars' destruction would lead to the world getting unstable again and time and space merging. Arceus would need to intervene and split the concepts again in order for Dialga and Palkia to revive.

So it's sort of a non-Type 1 Type 1 even if we assume it's the case, because you don't need to be able to mess with concepts to affect or kill them off. Meaning it's not Type 1.
 
Neither Dialga nor Palkia have ever shown the ability to manipulate their concepts. They merely embody them. Arceus is the one who created the concepts and can manipulate them.
 
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